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Sean P. DeNigris

Pharo on retina display

Administrator

Like all apps not upgraded for retina, Pharo looks pixelated and fuzzy on the new MBPs. Is there any workaround which at least makes the text less fuzzy?

Cheers,
Sean

EstebanLM

Re: Pharo on retina display

no... but if I can get a mbp retina, I can take a look and make it work ;)

On Aug 1, 2012, at 9:56 PM, "Sean P. DeNigris" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Like all apps not upgraded for retina, Pharo looks pixelated and fuzzy on the
> new MBPs. Is there any workaround which at least makes the text less fuzzy?
>
> http://forum.world.st/file/n4642567/Screen_Shot_2012-08-01_at_3.48.23_PM.png
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-on-retina-display-tp4642567.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

Igor Stasenko

Re: Pharo on retina display

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

On 1 August 2012 21:56, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Like all apps not upgraded for retina, Pharo looks pixelated and fuzzy on the
> new MBPs. Is there any workaround which at least makes the text less fuzzy?
>
Use freetype :)

> http://forum.world.st/file/n4642567/Screen_Shot_2012-08-01_at_3.48.23_PM.png
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-on-retina-display-tp4642567.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Pharo on retina display

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

> no... but if I can get a mbp retina, I can take a look and make it work ;)

:)

Not sure that this is for tomorrow.
:D
BTW you can remind nicolas that he is the only one of the team that has an SSD disc.

Stef

Nicolas Petton

Re: Pharo on retina display

Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> writes:

>> no... but if I can get a mbp retina, I can take a look and make it work ;)
>
> :)
>
> Not sure that this is for tomorrow.
> :D
> BTW you can remind nicolas that he is the only one of the team that
> has an SSD disc.

So..? :)
You'll have go over my dead body to get my Mac with SSD!

Nico

>
> Stef

--
Nicolas Petton
http://nicolas-petton.fr

Philippe Marschall-2

Re: Pharo on retina display

In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

On 08/01/2012 10:43 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
> On 1 August 2012 21:56, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Like all apps not upgraded for retina, Pharo looks pixelated and fuzzy on the
>> new MBPs. Is there any workaround which at least makes the text less fuzzy?
>>
> Use freetype :)

Doesn't help

Cheers
Philippe

Henrik Sperre Johansen

Re: Pharo on retina display

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

On 01.08.2012 21:56, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:

There is TextStyle pixelsPerInch, which is adherred to by the TrueType
fonts, but setting that to a correct value probably plays badly with
whatever post-scaling OSX does for non-retina aware apps...

Cheers,
Henry

Tudor Girba-2

Re: Pharo on retina display

Did anyone find a solution to this problem?

Doru

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Henrik Sperre Johansen <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 01.08.2012 21:56, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:

Like all apps not upgraded for retina, Pharo looks pixelated and fuzzy on the
new MBPs. Is there any workaround which at least makes the text less fuzzy?

http://forum.world.st/file/n4642567/Screen_Shot_2012-08-01_at_3.48.23_PM.png

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-on-retina-display-tp4642567.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

There is TextStyle pixelsPerInch, which is adherred to by the TrueType fonts, but setting that to a correct value probably plays badly with whatever post-scaling OSX does for non-retina aware apps...

Cheers,
Henry

www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

Sean P. DeNigris

Re: Pharo on retina display

Administrator

Tudor Girba-2 wrote

Did anyone find a solution to this problem?

I just got used to the fuzziness :)

Cheers,
Sean

Tudor Girba-2

Re: Pharo on retina display

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:

Tudor Girba-2 wrote

> Did anyone find a solution to this problem?

I just got used to the fuzziness :)

--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-on-retina-display-tp4642567p4650783.html

Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Pharo on retina display

Sorry but we are a tiny team and we cannot run after everything at the same time. We should get focused
and release something. Igor is already fixing the VM plugin, library loading to avoid to have two libraries
of a given plugin and all the conflicts going together.
And we do not have retina mac right now.

Stef

> :(
>
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Tudor Girba-2 wrote
> > Did anyone find a solution to this problem?
>
> I just got used to the fuzziness :)
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-on-retina-display-tp4642567p4650783.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
>
> "Every thing has its own flow"
>

EstebanLM

Re: Pharo on retina display

also, the "retina problem" is a much more complex problem than it looks: it exposes how aged (obsolete is a better word, I think) is our graphics system. Now, Athens will solve that problem, but there is no magic to do that can make the old graphics infrastructure to work with new hardware requirements, any adaptation of it will take a lot of work, and probably will not reach a good place...
So, IMO the way to go is continue the efforts for make Athens work, and move morphic to work with it as soon as possible.

Esteban

ps: what? are you saying that we should remove something that is there since 1980? Yes I am! :)

On Oct 12, 2012, at 10:48 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry but we are a tiny team and we cannot run after everything at the same time. We should get focused
> and release something. Igor is already fixing the VM plugin, library loading to avoid to have two libraries
> of a given plugin and all the conflicts going together.
> And we do not have retina mac right now.
>
> Stef
>
>
>> :(
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Tudor Girba-2 wrote
>>> Did anyone find a solution to this problem?
>>
>> I just got used to the fuzziness :)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-on-retina-display-tp4642567p4650783.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> www.tudorgirba.com
>>
>> "Every thing has its own flow"
>>
>
>

Igor Stasenko

Re: Pharo on retina display

On 12 October 2012 11:06, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:
> also, the "retina problem" is a much more complex problem than it looks: it exposes how aged (obsolete is a better word, I think) is our graphics system. Now, Athens will solve that problem, but there is no magic to do that can make the old graphics infrastructure to work with new hardware requirements, any adaptation of it will take a lot of work, and probably will not reach a good place...
> So, IMO the way to go is continue the efforts for make Athens work, and move morphic to work with it as soon as possible.
>

Yes, best thing for retina displays is to use Athens. It is maybe not
yet ready for prime time, but of course it is more than nothing, and i
crawling slowly to finish line :)

I can only say that it was right strategic choice to put effort in
developing it.
Because if we wouldn't make such choice few years ago, and allocate
our resources to other tasks (and there's plenty),
there would be nothing to propose at all to support new generation of
hardware which comes these days. :)

> Esteban
>
> ps: what? are you saying that we should remove something that is there since 1980? Yes I am! :)
>
>
> On Oct 12, 2012, at 10:48 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Sorry but we are a tiny team and we cannot run after everything at the same time. We should get focused
>> and release something. Igor is already fixing the VM plugin, library loading to avoid to have two libraries
>> of a given plugin and all the conflicts going together.
>> And we do not have retina mac right now.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>>> :(
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Tudor Girba-2 wrote
>>>> Did anyone find a solution to this problem?
>>>
>>> I just got used to the fuzziness :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-on-retina-display-tp4642567p4650783.html
>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> www.tudorgirba.com
>>>
>>> "Every thing has its own flow"
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

Henrik Sperre Johansen

Re: Pharo on retina display

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

On 12.10.2012 11:06, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
> also, the "retina problem" is a much more complex problem than it looks: it exposes how aged (obsolete is a better word, I think) is our graphics system. Now, Athens will solve that problem, but there is no magic to do that can make the old graphics infrastructure to work with new hardware requirements, any adaptation of it will take a lot of work, and probably will not reach a good place...
> So, IMO the way to go is continue the efforts for make Athens work, and move morphic to work with it as soon as possible.
>
> Esteban
>
> ps: what? are you saying that we should remove something that is there since 1980? Yes I am! :)
I think, if not ideal, it could at least reach an interesting place if
some consessions were to be made.
- Giving up the World bitmap as a canonical bit-identical rendering on
all platforms, and treat it more as a convenient place to grab contents
for screenshots once in a while.
In that case, what would need to be replaced if one were to use morphs
mostly unaltered, is a way to fetch the current contents of a region of
the screen buffer during a display cycle (for doing alpha blending
in-image).

Basically, instead of going
graphic primitives -> paint on World bitmap -> display World bitmap
onscreen
you could then do
graphic primitives -> paint on platform structures -> display platform
structures onscreen -> synchronize World bitmap with platform structures

and achieve pretty good consistency image-side with what is available today.

IIRC, Athens goes
Athens graphics primitives -> paint on backend structures (f.ex. Cairo)
-> copy backend structures to World bitmap -> display World bitmap onscreen

So the underlying way of how to actually display shapes onscreen hasn't
changed much (at least the last time I looked at it), it still displays
a bitmap, and that's it.

Cheers,
Henry

Tudor Girba-2

Re: Pharo on retina display

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

Do not be defensive, please :). I simply expressed a feeling. You should definitely focus on releasing.

Doru

On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sorry but we are a tiny team and we cannot run after everything at the same time. We should get focused
and release something. Igor is already fixing the VM plugin, library loading to avoid to have two libraries
of a given plugin and all the conflicts going together.
And we do not have retina mac right now.

Stef

> :(
>
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Tudor Girba-2 wrote
> > Did anyone find a solution to this problem?
>
> I just got used to the fuzziness :)
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-on-retina-display-tp4642567p4650783.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
>
> "Every thing has its own flow"
>

www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

Tudor Girba-2

Re: Pharo on retina display

In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

Hi,

Athens would indeed be great. And I am happy that this investment has high priority in the team. But, I think for the usages that I see, we would need font support. Is there any progress on this front?

Cheers,

Doru

On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 12 October 2012 11:06, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:
> also, the "retina problem" is a much more complex problem than it looks: it exposes how aged (obsolete is a better word, I think) is our graphics system. Now, Athens will solve that problem, but there is no magic to do that can make the old graphics infrastructure to work with new hardware requirements, any adaptation of it will take a lot of work, and probably will not reach a good place...
> So, IMO the way to go is continue the efforts for make Athens work, and move morphic to work with it as soon as possible.
>

Yes, best thing for retina displays is to use Athens. It is maybe not
yet ready for prime time, but of course it is more than nothing, and i
crawling slowly to finish line :)

I can only say that it was right strategic choice to put effort in
developing it.
Because if we wouldn't make such choice few years ago, and allocate
our resources to other tasks (and there's plenty),
there would be nothing to propose at all to support new generation of
hardware which comes these days. :)

> Esteban
>
> ps: what? are you saying that we should remove something that is there since 1980? Yes I am! :)
>
>
> On Oct 12, 2012, at 10:48 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Sorry but we are a tiny team and we cannot run after everything at the same time. We should get focused
>> and release something. Igor is already fixing the VM plugin, library loading to avoid to have two libraries
>> of a given plugin and all the conflicts going together.
>> And we do not have retina mac right now.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>>> :(
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Tudor Girba-2 wrote
>>>> Did anyone find a solution to this problem?
>>>
>>> I just got used to the fuzziness :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-on-retina-display-tp4642567p4650783.html
>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> www.tudorgirba.com
>>>
>>> "Every thing has its own flow"
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

Igor Stasenko

Re: Pharo on retina display

On 12 October 2012 13:41, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Athens would indeed be great. And I am happy that this investment has high
> priority in the team. But, I think for the usages that I see, we would need
> font support. Is there any progress on this front?
>

Font support is there. I currently working on Morphic rendering (see
screenshot) and getting VMs for all 3 platforms Athens-ready.

As i said previously, don't expect Athens to support raster fonts. It
doesn't makes any sense.
With athens, you can always render number of glyphs into bitmaps and
draw them as bitmaps later, if you want it,
but i wouldn't call it 'font support', it is bitmap support. :)

For Cairo backend i did integration with freetype (which already in
pharo as you know), which means that you can
render any scalable fonts.

And if you may know, freetype package supports embedded fonts (i.e.
font data loaded from memory),
which means you don't even need to have a separate font file along the
image, you can keep font in image itself.
As for amount of memory, needed to hold truetype font in image:
we did a small experiment with Camillo few days ago , we took single
font (Deja Vu sans mono),
and edited it to have only ascii character set (0..127). The resulting
font file size is just 30Kb!

Now compare it with following:

(StrikeFont allInstances collect: [:each | each glyphs bits sizeInMemory ]) sum
1504444

1.5 Mb of bitmap data for only single raster font with couple fixed sizes.

For same size, you could have 1500/30 = 50 various vector fonts (if
only ascii character range of course).

> Cheers,
> Doru
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

cairo.png (250K) Download Attachment

Igor Stasenko

Re: Pharo on retina display

ahem.. do not confuse: the given screenshot is an image rendered 100% by athens.
it is not a screenshot, just for showing that there is some classes in
Athens for "font support" :)

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

Tudor Girba-2

Re: Pharo on retina display

In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

Hi Igor,

The only reason we were thinking of the bitmap font support was that there was no ready-made vm to get people to use the new canvas.

But, if you are getting the vms ready ... this is fantastic. I would say that as soon as they are ready Moose will likely move to Athens.

Cheers,

Doru

On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 12 October 2012 13:41, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Athens would indeed be great. And I am happy that this investment has high
> priority in the team. But, I think for the usages that I see, we would need
> font support. Is there any progress on this front?
>

Font support is there. I currently working on Morphic rendering (see
screenshot) and getting VMs for all 3 platforms Athens-ready.

As i said previously, don't expect Athens to support raster fonts. It
doesn't makes any sense.
With athens, you can always render number of glyphs into bitmaps and
draw them as bitmaps later, if you want it,
but i wouldn't call it 'font support', it is bitmap support. :)

For Cairo backend i did integration with freetype (which already in
pharo as you know), which means that you can
render any scalable fonts.

And if you may know, freetype package supports embedded fonts (i.e.
font data loaded from memory),
which means you don't even need to have a separate font file along the
image, you can keep font in image itself.
As for amount of memory, needed to hold truetype font in image:
we did a small experiment with Camillo few days ago , we took single
font (Deja Vu sans mono),
and edited it to have only ascii character set (0..127). The resulting
font file size is just 30Kb!

Now compare it with following:

(StrikeFont allInstances collect: [:each | each glyphs bits sizeInMemory ]) sum
1504444

1.5 Mb of bitmap data for only single raster font with couple fixed sizes.

For same size, you could have 1500/30 = 50 various vector fonts (if
only ascii character range of course).

> Cheers,
> Doru

>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"

Henrik Sperre Johansen

Re: Pharo on retina display

In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

On 12.10.2012 14:42, Igor Stasenko wrote:

> On 12 October 2012 13:41, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Athens would indeed be great. And I am happy that this investment has high
>> priority in the team. But, I think for the usages that I see, we would need
>> font support. Is there any progress on this front?
>>
> Font support is there. I currently working on Morphic rendering (see
> screenshot) and getting VMs for all 3 platforms Athens-ready.
>
> As i said previously, don't expect Athens to support raster fonts. It
> doesn't makes any sense.
> With athens, you can always render number of glyphs into bitmaps and
> draw them as bitmaps later, if you want it,
> but i wouldn't call it 'font support', it is bitmap support. :)
>
> For Cairo backend i did integration with freetype (which already in
> pharo as you know), which means that you can
> render any scalable fonts.
>
> And if you may know, freetype package supports embedded fonts (i.e.
> font data loaded from memory),
> which means you don't even need to have a separate font file along the
> image, you can keep font in image itself.
> As for amount of memory, needed to hold truetype font in image:
> we did a small experiment with Camillo few days ago , we took single
> font (Deja Vu sans mono),
> and edited it to have only ascii character set (0..127). The resulting
> font file size is just 30Kb!
>
> Now compare it with following:
>
> (StrikeFont allInstances collect: [:each | each glyphs bits sizeInMemory ]) sum
> 1504444
>
> 1.5 Mb of bitmap data for only single raster font with couple fixed sizes.
>
> For same size, you could have 1500/30 = 50 various vector fonts (if
> only ascii character range of course).

25 then, StrikeFonts cover all of latin1 range :)
How is the rendering performance compared to Bitmap and FT fonts done
without athens/cairo?
Bitmapped FT fonts were somewhat of a hog both memory and
performance-wise iirc, due to the combination of sub-pixel accurate
glyph bitmap cache and glyph-by-glyph rendering...

Impressive progress!

Cheers,
Henry