Pharo6 playground saving semantics and .changes?

> On 29 Jun 2017, at 16:45, Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi - I really like the playground metaphor, it really is such a nice way to experiment.
>
> However I've noticed that unlike older versions of Smalltalk, it seems that DoIt operations in playground don't end up in the .changes file anymore (which I guess is a mixed blessing when you want to recover). It seems that the new metaphor is that work you do is saved as a page and you can see versions of your page in the upper right menu? Well sort of - as I haven't quite understood when it saves or doesn't? Often I get duplicate looking pages in that menu and often I make a change and want to keep it but find it doesn't save and if I accidentally close my playground my changes in a page are lost?
>
> What are the semantics of page saving?
>
> An example  - if you do a few gofer loads of utilities and the put a comment on the first line of the page (which gives it a nice title in the page dropdown), sometimes that comment will be saved other times not?
>
> I also think it might be nice to remove page versions to help tidy things up. I'm thinking of rolling my sleeves up on this idea - but wanted to understand the vision firsts
>
> Tim
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>

> On 29 Jun 2017, at 18:04, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> One of the more hidden Playground features are named Pages. Double-click the page tab title and give it a name, it will then be saved automagically in pharo-local/play-stash (and auto saves on changes from then on). I use that all the time.
>
>> On 29 Jun 2017, at 16:45, Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi - I really like the playground metaphor, it really is such a nice way to experiment.
>>
>> However I've noticed that unlike older versions of Smalltalk, it seems that DoIt operations in playground don't end up in the .changes file anymore (which I guess is a mixed blessing when you want to recover). It seems that the new metaphor is that work you do is saved as a page and you can see versions of your page in the upper right menu? Well sort of - as I haven't quite understood when it saves or doesn't? Often I get duplicate looking pages in that menu and often I make a change and want to keep it but find it doesn't save and if I accidentally close my playground my changes in a page are lost?
>>
>> What are the semantics of page saving?
>>
>> An example  - if you do a few gofer loads of utilities and the put a comment on the first line of the page (which gives it a nice title in the page dropdown), sometimes that comment will be saved other times not?
>>
>> I also think it might be nice to remove page versions to help tidy things up. I'm thinking of rolling my sleeves up on this idea - but wanted to understand the vision firsts
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>
>

> Cool - I was missing that insight.
>
> Tim
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On 29 Jun 2017, at 18:04, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> One of the more hidden Playground features are named Pages. Double-click the page tab title and give it a name, it will then be saved automagically in pharo-local/play-stash (and auto saves on changes from then on). I use that all the time.
>>
>>> On 29 Jun 2017, at 16:45, Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi - I really like the playground metaphor, it really is such a nice way to experiment.
>>>
>>> However I've noticed that unlike older versions of Smalltalk, it seems that DoIt operations in playground don't end up in the .changes file anymore (which I guess is a mixed blessing when you want to recover). It seems that the new metaphor is that work you do is saved as a page and you can see versions of your page in the upper right menu? Well sort of - as I haven't quite understood when it saves or doesn't? Often I get duplicate looking pages in that menu and often I make a change and want to keep it but find it doesn't save and if I accidentally close my playground my changes in a page are lost?
>>>
>>> What are the semantics of page saving?
>>>
>>> An example  - if you do a few gofer loads of utilities and the put a comment on the first line of the page (which gives it a nice title in the page dropdown), sometimes that comment will be saved other times not?
>>>
>>> I also think it might be nice to remove page versions to help tidy things up. I'm thinking of rolling my sleeves up on this idea - but wanted to understand the vision firsts
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

> Please allow me a little rant here...
>
> I still find disturbing the"autosave" feature without having the
> option to explicitly save the contents in the filesystem as I did with
> Workspaces. Sometimes I don't want the contents of a file/tab updated
> by a criteria different than when to save the image, it is: my own
> when I consider appropriate.
>
> It's not I want to disable Playground by complete which I find useful
> when integrated with the inlined insector, but I want to keep the
> behavior of saving and restoring the contents under my control.
>
> Privacywise I don't like the "history" of previous contents in the
> Playground, the history it can be removed but it can't be disabled. I
> can condense the changes file, but the Playground history remains.
>
> Regards!
>
>
> Esteban A. Maringolo
>
>
> 2017-06-29 17:12 GMT-03:00 Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]>:
>> Cool - I was missing that insight.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On 29 Jun 2017, at 18:04, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> One of the more hidden Playground features are named Pages. Double-click the page tab title and give it a name, it will then be saved automagically in pharo-local/play-stash (and auto saves on changes from then on). I use that all the time.
>>>
>>>> On 29 Jun 2017, at 16:45, Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi - I really like the playground metaphor, it really is such a nice way to experiment.
>>>>
>>>> However I've noticed that unlike older versions of Smalltalk, it seems that DoIt operations in playground don't end up in the .changes file anymore (which I guess is a mixed blessing when you want to recover). It seems that the new metaphor is that work you do is saved as a page and you can see versions of your page in the upper right menu? Well sort of - as I haven't quite understood when it saves or doesn't? Often I get duplicate looking pages in that menu and often I make a change and want to keep it but find it doesn't save and if I accidentally close my playground my changes in a page are lost?
>>>>
>>>> What are the semantics of page saving?
>>>>
>>>> An example  - if you do a few gofer loads of utilities and the put a comment on the first line of the page (which gives it a nice title in the page dropdown), sometimes that comment will be saved other times not?
>>>>
>>>> I also think it might be nice to remove page versions to help tidy things up. I'm thinking of rolling my sleeves up on this idea - but wanted to understand the vision firsts
>>>>
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

> On 29 Jun 2017, at 23:54, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Tim, I have made a project, called Grafoscopio, that, in its core, is
> about saving playgrounds and embed them into bigger context/narratives.
> You can see more details and examples here:
>
> [1] http://mutabit.com/grafoscopio/index.en.html
>
> Still needs work to do, for example improving English documentation and
> discoverability, as Glenn suggested (Spanish page is better ranked in
> search engines), but maybe you find it interesting for what you're
> looking for. See the page at [1] and the examples, to see what is
> possible at the moment.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Offray
>
> Ps: I share Esteban's concern on privacy and autosave feature, despite
> of being useful, sometimes, for me and in the workshops. This behavior
> should be disabled by default and turn on on user demand. (Maybe a tool
> tip on first launch, like the one on anonymous metrics could help here
> too).
>
>> On 29/06/17 15:55, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote:
>> Please allow me a little rant here...
>>
>> I still find disturbing the"autosave" feature without having the
>> option to explicitly save the contents in the filesystem as I did with
>> Workspaces. Sometimes I don't want the contents of a file/tab updated
>> by a criteria different than when to save the image, it is: my own
>> when I consider appropriate.
>>
>> It's not I want to disable Playground by complete which I find useful
>> when integrated with the inlined insector, but I want to keep the
>> behavior of saving and restoring the contents under my control.
>>
>> Privacywise I don't like the "history" of previous contents in the
>> Playground, the history it can be removed but it can't be disabled. I
>> can condense the changes file, but the Playground history remains.
>>
>> Regards!
>>
>>
>> Esteban A. Maringolo
>>
>>
>> 2017-06-29 17:12 GMT-03:00 Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]>:
>>> Cool - I was missing that insight.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On 29 Jun 2017, at 18:04, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> One of the more hidden Playground features are named Pages. Double-click the page tab title and give it a name, it will then be saved automagically in pharo-local/play-stash (and auto saves on changes from then on). I use that all the time.
>>>>
>>>>> On 29 Jun 2017, at 16:45, Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi - I really like the playground metaphor, it really is such a nice way to experiment.
>>>>>
>>>>> However I've noticed that unlike older versions of Smalltalk, it seems that DoIt operations in playground don't end up in the .changes file anymore (which I guess is a mixed blessing when you want to recover). It seems that the new metaphor is that work you do is saved as a page and you can see versions of your page in the upper right menu? Well sort of - as I haven't quite understood when it saves or doesn't? Often I get duplicate looking pages in that menu and often I make a change and want to keep it but find it doesn't save and if I accidentally close my playground my changes in a page are lost?
>>>>>
>>>>> What are the semantics of page saving?
>>>>>
>>>>> An example  - if you do a few gofer loads of utilities and the put a comment on the first line of the page (which gives it a nice title in the page dropdown), sometimes that comment will be saved other times not?
>>>>>
>>>>> I also think it might be nice to remove page versions to help tidy things up. I'm thinking of rolling my sleeves up on this idea - but wanted to understand the vision firsts
>>>>>
>>>>> Tim
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>