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PharoJS

Hi,

those of us who are not on the Pharo mailinglist might want to check this out:

http://car.mines-douai.fr/pharojs/

It seems to be a very new project which allows compilation of Pharo code into JS from within Pharo.

Maybe there is also a chance for collaboration?

Best,

Manfred

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Joe Shirk

Re: PharoJS

This is exciting!

On Friday, July 17, 2015 at 1:32:32 PM UTC-4, MKroehnert wrote:

Hi,

those of us who are not on the Pharo mailinglist might want to check this out:

<a href="http://car.mines-douai.fr/pharojs/" style="font-size:12.8000001907349px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcar.mines-douai.fr%2Fpharojs%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE6wgqU0SkROTkWF42lenF55AiPnw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcar.mines-douai.fr%2Fpharojs%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE6wgqU0SkROTkWF42lenF55AiPnw';return true;">http://car.mines-douai.fr/pharojs/

It seems to be a very new project which allows compilation of Pharo code into JS from within Pharo.

Maybe there is also a chance for collaboration?

Best,
Manfred

horrido

Re: PharoJS

In reply to this post by Amber Smalltalk mailing list

I don't understand the point of this new project. It seems redundant. What's wrong with Amber?

Moreover, from the branding viewpoint, I much prefer Amber; it's sexier. Nicer name, nicer logo, nicer tagline, nicer front webpage. Plus, I have my Amber tutorial articles, which are hot. (I'm about to publish my third tutorial article on using Amber to write Cordova/PhoneGap applications.)

I worry about spreading the Smalltalk community too thin. Let's just focus on one project with as much intensity as we can muster. And on one brand.

On Friday, 17 July 2015 13:32:32 UTC-4, MKroehnert wrote:

Hi,

those of us who are not on the Pharo mailinglist might want to check this out:

<a href="http://car.mines-douai.fr/pharojs/" style="font-size:12.8000001907349px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcar.mines-douai.fr%2Fpharojs%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE6wgqU0SkROTkWF42lenF55AiPnw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcar.mines-douai.fr%2Fpharojs%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE6wgqU0SkROTkWF42lenF55AiPnw';return true;">http://car.mines-douai.fr/pharojs/

It seems to be a very new project which allows compilation of Pharo code into JS from within Pharo.

Maybe there is also a chance for collaboration?

Best,
Manfred

Sean P. DeNigris

Re: PharoJS

Administrator

horrido wrote

I don't understand the point of this new project. It seems redundant.
What's wrong with Amber?

I asked that on the Pharo list and apparently, although the end result is the same - pure Javascript, the difference is that with PharoJS Pharo is still your IDE, so you do all your development in your normal Smalltalk image.

horrido wrote

I worry about spreading the Smalltalk community too thin

I felt the same way when Pharo forked from Squeak, but looking back today, it seems that the energy created by the competition has actually propelled both much further than Squeak likely would have gone alone. On the other hand, it seems like there must be opportunity for cooperation - a point that was raised on the Pharo list is "why doesn't PharoJS use Amber's JS battle-tested compiler instead of reimplementing from scratch?" Then, the case could be made that Amber implementing an entire IDE (or two if we count the legacy version) in the browser spreads our resources pretty thin - if we could avoid that work...

Cheers,
Sean

Andy Burnett

Re: PharoJS

In reply to this post by horrido

As I understand it, they are really two quite separate animals.

Amber is an in-browser implementation of Pharo. You can build applications with it, but you could also inject it into a page, and manipulate the page using Pharo, rather than JS.
PharoJS, is a transpiler. You build with Pharo, and transpile into JS.

I think both options are interesting, and let's face it, the whole point of Smalltalk is to invent the future :-)

Cheers

Andy

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't understand the point of this new project. It seems redundant. What's wrong with Amber?

Moreover, from the branding viewpoint, I much prefer Amber; it's sexier. Nicer name, nicer logo, nicer tagline, nicer front webpage. Plus, I have my Amber tutorial articles, which are hot. (I'm about to publish my third tutorial article on using Amber to write Cordova/PhoneGap applications.)

I worry about spreading the Smalltalk community too thin. Let's just focus on one project with as much intensity as we can muster. And on one brand.

On Friday, 17 July 2015 13:32:32 UTC-4, MKroehnert wrote:
Hi,

those of us who are not on the Pharo mailinglist might want to check this out:

http://car.mines-douai.fr/pharojs/

It seems to be a very new project which allows compilation of Pharo code into JS from within Pharo.

Maybe there is also a chance for collaboration?

Best,
Manfred

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Sean P. DeNigris

Re: PharoJS

Administrator

Andy Burnett wrote

you could also inject it into a page, and manipulate the page using Pharo, rather than JS.

That sounds very interesting. Do you have an example of how/why to do that?

Cheers,
Sean

horrido

Re: PharoJS

In reply to this post by Andy Burnett

I think you meant, "...you could also inject it into a page, and manipulate the page using Amber, rather than JS." Right?

On Saturday, 18 July 2015 14:05:05 UTC-4, Andy Burnett wrote:

As I understand it, they are really two quite separate animals.
Amber is an in-browser implementation of Pharo. You can build applications with it, but you could also inject it into a page, and manipulate the page using Pharo, rather than JS.
PharoJS, is a transpiler. You build with Pharo, and transpile into JS.
I think both options are interesting, and let's face it, the whole point of Smalltalk is to invent the future :-)
Cheers
Andy

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">horrido...@...> wrote:
I don't understand the point of this new project. It seems redundant. What's wrong with Amber?

Moreover, from the branding viewpoint, I much prefer Amber; it's sexier. Nicer name, nicer logo, nicer tagline, nicer front webpage. Plus, I have my Amber tutorial articles, which are hot. (I'm about to publish my third tutorial article on using Amber to write Cordova/PhoneGap applications.)

I worry about spreading the Smalltalk community too thin. Let's just focus on one project with as much intensity as we can muster. And on one brand.

On Friday, 17 July 2015 13:32:32 UTC-4, MKroehnert wrote:
Hi,

those of us who are not on the Pharo mailinglist might want to check this out:

<a href="http://car.mines-douai.fr/pharojs/" style="font-size:12.8000001907349px" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcar.mines-douai.fr%2Fpharojs%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE6wgqU0SkROTkWF42lenF55AiPnw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcar.mines-douai.fr%2Fpharojs%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE6wgqU0SkROTkWF42lenF55AiPnw';return true;">http://car.mines-douai.fr/pharojs/

It seems to be a very new project which allows compilation of Pharo code into JS from within Pharo.

Maybe there is also a chance for collaboration?

Best,
Manfred

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horrido

Re: PharoJS

In reply to this post by Andy Burnett

Isn't Amber a transpiler, too?

I guess there are advantages to using the Pharo image to develop for the browser. I assume the Pharo IDE is very mature with a powerful text editor (?).

But on the whole, I'd rather use Amber.

(Is PharoJS a response to SqueakJS? Interesting experiments, I must say. I'm curious to see where they lead.)

On Saturday, 18 July 2015 14:05:05 UTC-4, Andy Burnett wrote:

As I understand it, they are really two quite separate animals.
Amber is an in-browser implementation of Pharo. You can build applications with it, but you could also inject it into a page, and manipulate the page using Pharo, rather than JS.
PharoJS, is a transpiler. You build with Pharo, and transpile into JS.
I think both options are interesting, and let's face it, the whole point of Smalltalk is to invent the future :-)
Cheers
Andy

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">horrido...@...> wrote:
I don't understand the point of this new project. It seems redundant. What's wrong with Amber?

Moreover, from the branding viewpoint, I much prefer Amber; it's sexier. Nicer name, nicer logo, nicer tagline, nicer front webpage. Plus, I have my Amber tutorial articles, which are hot. (I'm about to publish my third tutorial article on using Amber to write Cordova/PhoneGap applications.)

I worry about spreading the Smalltalk community too thin. Let's just focus on one project with as much intensity as we can muster. And on one brand.

On Friday, 17 July 2015 13:32:32 UTC-4, MKroehnert wrote:
Hi,

those of us who are not on the Pharo mailinglist might want to check this out:

<a href="http://car.mines-douai.fr/pharojs/" style="font-size:12.8000001907349px" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcar.mines-douai.fr%2Fpharojs%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE6wgqU0SkROTkWF42lenF55AiPnw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcar.mines-douai.fr%2Fpharojs%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE6wgqU0SkROTkWF42lenF55AiPnw';return true;">http://car.mines-douai.fr/pharojs/

It seems to be a very new project which allows compilation of Pharo code into JS from within Pharo.

Maybe there is also a chance for collaboration?

Best,
Manfred

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Andy Burnett

Re: Re: PharoJS

In reply to this post by Amber Smalltalk mailing list

Andy Burnett wrote
> you could also inject it into a page, and manipulate the page using Pharo,
> rather than JS.

That sounds very interesting. Do you have an example of how/why to do that?

Well, the how was very hacky. I copied some of the code that people used to inject jQuery into pages, and applied it to the 'original' version of Amber. This was some time ago, before things were broken into modules. I am sure it is still possible to do the same thing. Perhaps you have to create an app, and bundle it up into a single file - including Helios, or the original browser - perhaps Herby can advise.

And, why? Well, because I think it would be awesome to grab a set of Divs, as an OrderedCollection and run a select: block against it :-)

My ideal situation would be to create a Chrome extension that would install Amber into any page.

Cheers

Andy

Andy Burnett

Re: PharoJS

In reply to this post by Amber Smalltalk mailing list

Yes, exactly - thank you :-)

I think you meant, "...you could also inject it into a page, and manipulate the page using Amber, rather than JS." Right?

On Saturday, 18 July 2015 14:05:05 UTC-4, Andy Burnett wrote:
As I understand it, they are really two quite separate animals.
Amber is an in-browser implementation of Pharo. You can build applications with it, but you could also inject it into a page, and manipulate the page using Pharo, rather than JS.
PharoJS, is a transpiler. You build with Pharo, and transpile into JS.
I think both options are interesting, and let's face it, the whole point of Smalltalk is to invent the future :-)
Cheers
Andy

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't understand the point of this new project. It seems redundant. What's wrong with Amber?

Moreover, from the branding viewpoint, I much prefer Amber; it's sexier. Nicer name, nicer logo, nicer tagline, nicer front webpage. Plus, I have my Amber tutorial articles, which are hot. (I'm about to publish my third tutorial article on using Amber to write Cordova/PhoneGap applications.)

I worry about spreading the Smalltalk community too thin. Let's just focus on one project with as much intensity as we can muster. And on one brand.

On Friday, 17 July 2015 13:32:32 UTC-4, MKroehnert wrote:
Hi,

those of us who are not on the Pharo mailinglist might want to check this out:

http://car.mines-douai.fr/pharojs/

It seems to be a very new project which allows compilation of Pharo code into JS from within Pharo.

Maybe there is also a chance for collaboration?

Best,
Manfred

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Andy Burnett

Re: PharoJS

In reply to this post by Amber Smalltalk mailing list

Yes, I think it is. And, I think you are spot on. Pharo has an an excellent IDE, and is moving forward very quickly, so being able to use it to develop JS apps could be very nice.

SqueakJS is incredibly clever. I am amazed at how quickly it runs. However, PharoJS - as I understand it - is quite different. SqueakJS has implemented the Squeak VM in Javascript, and so the it can run the Squeak bytecode without alteration. PharoJS is a transpiler from Pharo.

> But on the whole, I'd rather use Amber.

And that's the wonderful thing about choice :-)

Cheers

Andy

Isn't Amber a transpiler, too?

I guess there are advantages to using the Pharo image to develop for the browser. I assume the Pharo IDE is very mature with a powerful text editor (?).

But on the whole, I'd rather use Amber.

(Is PharoJS a response to SqueakJS? Interesting experiments, I must say. I'm curious to see where they lead.)

On Saturday, 18 July 2015 14:05:05 UTC-4, Andy Burnett wrote:
As I understand it, they are really two quite separate animals.
Amber is an in-browser implementation of Pharo. You can build applications with it, but you could also inject it into a page, and manipulate the page using Pharo, rather than JS.
PharoJS, is a transpiler. You build with Pharo, and transpile into JS.
I think both options are interesting, and let's face it, the whole point of Smalltalk is to invent the future :-)
Cheers
Andy

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't understand the point of this new project. It seems redundant. What's wrong with Amber?

Moreover, from the branding viewpoint, I much prefer Amber; it's sexier. Nicer name, nicer logo, nicer tagline, nicer front webpage. Plus, I have my Amber tutorial articles, which are hot. (I'm about to publish my third tutorial article on using Amber to write Cordova/PhoneGap applications.)

I worry about spreading the Smalltalk community too thin. Let's just focus on one project with as much intensity as we can muster. And on one brand.

On Friday, 17 July 2015 13:32:32 UTC-4, MKroehnert wrote:
Hi,

those of us who are not on the Pharo mailinglist might want to check this out:

http://car.mines-douai.fr/pharojs/

It seems to be a very new project which allows compilation of Pharo code into JS from within Pharo.

Maybe there is also a chance for collaboration?

Best,
Manfred

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Herby Vojčík

Re: Re: PharoJS

In reply to this post by Andy Burnett

Yeah, bundling with IDE as a single file should be enough. See amber-smalltalk/trysmalltalk project.

OTOH, if it is to be pluggable to any page, it needs to be bundled with "namespace" option, so it does not clash with requirejs already present in the host page (see more in requirejs optimizer docs).

What I am afraid, though, is that some functionality of amber will fail atm if bundled in such way - especially `require value: foo` or `require toUrl: foo`, which use the global and will not be transformed by "namespace" option of rjs optimizer. OTOH, fix should be easy - all packages that have such code should add 'require'->'require' into its imports.

Dňa 19. júla 2015 3:00:37 CEST používateľ Andy Burnett <[hidden email]> napísal:

Andy Burnett wrote
> you could also inject it into a page, and manipulate the page using Pharo,
> rather than JS.

That sounds very interesting. Do you have an example of how/why to do that?

Well, the how was very hacky. I copied some of the code that people used to inject jQuery into pages, and applied it to the 'original' version of Amber. This was some time ago, before things were broken into modules. I am sure it is still possible to do the same thing. Perhaps you have to create an app, and bundle it up into a single file - including Helios, or the original browser - perhaps Herby can advise.

And, why? Well, because I think it would be awesome to grab a set of Divs, as an OrderedCollection and run a select: block against it :-)

My ideal situation would be to create a Chrome extension that would install Amber into any page.

Cheers
Andy

Herby Vojčík

Re: PharoJS

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
> horrido wrote
>> I don't understand the point of this new project. It seems redundant.
>> What's wrong with Amber?
>
> I asked that on the Pharo list and apparently, although the end result is
> the same - pure Javascript, the difference is that with PharoJS Pharo is
> still your IDE, so you do all your development in your normal Smalltalk
> image.

As it seems, PharoJS is "run Smalltalk in browser" that tries to
integrate as best as possible with Pharo ecosystem. Amber does the same
for JS ecosystem.

Ideally, there is a system that is capable of both well.

> horrido wrote
>> I worry about spreading the Smalltalk community too thin
>
> I felt the same way when Pharo forked from Squeak, but looking back today,
> it seems that the energy created by the competition has actually propelled
> both much further than Squeak likely would have gone alone. On the other
> hand, it seems like there must be opportunity for cooperation - a point that
> was raised on the Pharo list is "why doesn't PharoJS use Amber's JS
> battle-tested compiler instead of reimplementing from scratch?" Then, the
> case could be made that Amber implementing an entire IDE (or two if we count
> the legacy version) in the browser spreads our resources pretty thin - if we
> could avoid that work...
>
>
>
> -----
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-tp4837986p4838076.html
> Sent from the Amber Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

horrido

Re: PharoJS

Of course, we mustn't forget the important distinction, which is that the JS ecosystem is vastly larger than the Pharo ecosystem.

I do wish that Smalltalk had "third-party libraries", such as you find for JS, Java, Python, etc. This is an Achilles' Heel.

On Sunday, 19 July 2015 05:14:38 UTC-4, Herby wrote:

Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
> horrido wrote
>> I don't understand the point of this new project. It seems redundant.
>> What's wrong with Amber?
>
> I asked that on the Pharo list and apparently, although the end result is
> the same - pure Javascript, the difference is that with PharoJS Pharo is
> still your IDE, so you do all your development in your normal Smalltalk
> image.

As it seems, PharoJS is "run Smalltalk in browser" that tries to
integrate as best as possible with Pharo ecosystem. Amber does the same
for JS ecosystem.

Ideally, there is a system that is capable of both well.

> horrido wrote
>> I worry about spreading the Smalltalk community too thin
>
> I felt the same way when Pharo forked from Squeak, but looking back today,
> it seems that the energy created by the competition has actually propelled
> both much further than Squeak likely would have gone alone. On the other
> hand, it seems like there must be opportunity for cooperation - a point that
> was raised on the Pharo list is "why doesn't PharoJS use Amber's JS
> battle-tested compiler instead of reimplementing from scratch?" Then, the
> case could be made that Amber implementing an entire IDE (or two if we count
> the legacy version) in the browser spreads our resources pretty thin - if we
> could avoid that work...
>
>
>
> -----
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> View this message in context: <a href="http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-tp4837986p4838076.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st%2FPharoJS-tp4837986p4838076.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFeQ5eJw7WGn8lXv2373XYwo0yAXQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st%2FPharoJS-tp4837986p4838076.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFeQ5eJw7WGn8lXv2373XYwo0yAXQ';return true;">http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-tp4837986p4838076.html
> Sent from the Amber Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>