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According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.) It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be well-suited. (I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple syntax is very, very important!) I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress. Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on putting Pharo on the JVM? |
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Maybe one option was to fork VMMaker to generate Pharo VM as java code (although maybe was better Scala than Java). Convert platform code to a JVM language (for example, Scala) and use scalac to compile PharoVM to JVM. Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.) It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be well-suited. (I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple syntax is very, very important!) I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress. Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on putting Pharo on the JVM? |
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In reply to this post by horrido
What does "on the JVM" mean? Java itself is a crummy cargo cult of a language. The only reason it has traction is for building mobile phone apps. Specifically android. Java isn't the only way to build a mobile phone app on android though. It is perfectly possible to build android applications using other tools. You can even build them using HyperCard thanks to runtime revolution. I would suggest what would be more valuable is a shell that can run pharo apps packaged as mobile apps. Sent from the road
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Yes, Java is a crummy language. Nevertheless, it has traction not only in the Android space, but also in the enterprise space. Just look at IBM (where my brother worked on Java enterprise shit). However, Java is not the most important thing here. It's the Java library ecosystem. That's what everybody is after. And that's why, strategically, it is vital to get Smalltalk/Pharo to tap into that ecosystem.
Java may not be the only way to write for Android, but it is, by far, the most popular. |
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It's especially important to strategically, it is vital to get Smalltalk/Pharo
to tap into the Java ecosystem if Java itself gets deprecated by Oracle. Everyone who has a lot of enterprise Java code will need something that works on the JVM and will easily interoperate with Java libraries. On 12 December 2015 at 00:03, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: > Yes, Java is a crummy language. Nevertheless, it has traction not only in the > Android space, but also in the enterprise space. Just look at IBM (where my > brother worked on Java enterprise shit). However, Java is not the most > important thing here. It's the Java library ecosystem. That's what everybody > is after. And that's why, strategically, it is vital to get Smalltalk/Pharo > to tap into that ecosystem. > > Java may not be the only way to write for Android, but it is, by far, the > most popular. > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866682.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > |
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In reply to this post by horrido
Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont even make the top 20.
I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely alive. The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess. Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides to embrace JVM or JS as platforms. And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code. Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message. Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
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This post was updated on .
At Redmonk, Scala is a top 20 language (position #14). It's a widely used language, too, though not in the same league as Java or Python. Even Clojure and Groovy are in the top 20.
Scala is much, much more popular and widely used than Smalltalk. If Smalltalk could rise to Scala's level, it would be a huge win. The reason Amber and Redline and others have never achieved popularity is primarily due to the lack of proper marketing. There are a gazillion programming languages out there vying for developer attention. Smalltalk is completely lost in the noise. It's a great platform, but if it doesn't have developer mindshare, people won't try it. How do you think they'll find their way to Smalltalk/Pharo? By divination? |
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In reply to this post by EuanM
On 12-12-15 02:53, EuanM wrote:
> It's especially important to strategically, it is vital to get Smalltalk/Pharo > to tap into the Java ecosystem if Java itself gets deprecated by Oracle. > > Everyone who has a lot of enterprise Java code will need something > that works on the JVM and will easily interoperate with Java > libraries. No, it is not important strategically. http://blog.gardeviance.org/2013/01/the-importance-of-maps.html http://blog.gardeviance.org/2015/02/an-introduction-to-wardley-value-chain.html Stephan |
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In reply to this post by kilon.alios
Hello The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java. The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no phones nor phablets). Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero De: [hidden email] Enviado: 12/12/2015 10:25 Para: [hidden email] Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont even make the top 20.
I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely alive. The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess. Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides to embrace JVM or JS as platforms. And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code. Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message. Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well. On Android its still a work in progress but its improvingOn Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by horrido
Java cannot do become:, so, that's not going to be a "real" smalltalk. I do work w/ Java & Scala on a project. First, JAR hell -> productivity killer Second, lots of infrastructure needed: IDE, Maven, Artifactory, ... -> another productivity killer Long story short: prototype the thing in Pharo and if good enough, run it there. I've done that for one project of late. Net resut: it takes 5x the engineers and 3x the time to do the same in X than with Pharo. If you want to do Java/Scala, by all means, go there. But why the hell is this going to be so important? Read for lots of pro/cons arguments on other languages (which do not give a shit about Java mean you). Phil On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:41 AM, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: At Redmonk <http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2015/07/01/language-rankings-6-15/> |
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In reply to this post by Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero
Looks like there is Pharo engineer position that will take care of ARM. On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 12:30 PM, Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by philippeback
On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 8:41 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Java cannot do become:, so, that's not going to be a "real" smalltalk. > > I do work w/ Java & Scala on a project. > > First, JAR hell -> productivity killer > > Second, lots of infrastructure needed: IDE, Maven, Artifactory, ... -> > another productivity killer > > Long story short: prototype the thing in Pharo and if good enough, run it > there. I've done that for one project of late. Net resut: it takes 5x the engineers > and 3x the time to do the same in X than with Pharo. A nice insight to a very interesting marketing technique ;) Many know the quote "Plan to throw one away." So you don't need to convince them upfront to adopt a technology unknown to them - but then they see it working and balance that against dollars. I guess if later Pharo encounters some insurmountable barrier, they can still do the originally planned re-inplementation in Java they originally planned - without too much loss of face - but they get to do it from a well worn prototype. cheers -ben > > If you want to do Java/Scala, by all means, go there. But why the hell is > this going to be so important? > > Read > https://www.quora.com/Of-the-emerging-systems-languages-Rust-D-Go-and-Nim-which-is-the-strongest-language-and-why > > for lots of pro/cons arguments on other languages (which do not give a shit > about Java mean you). > > > Phil > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:41 AM, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> At Redmonk >> <http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2015/07/01/language-rankings-6-15/> >> , Scala is a top 20 language (position #14). It's a widely used language, >> too, though not in the same league as Java nor Python. Even Clojure and >> Groovy are in the top 20. >> >> Scala is much, much more popular and widely used than Smalltalk. If >> Smalltalk could rise to Scala's level, it would be a huge win. >> >> The reason Amber and Redline and others have never achieved popularity is >> primarily due to the lack of proper marketing. There are a gazillion >> programming languages out there vying for developer attention. Smalltalk >> is >> completely lost in the noise. It's a great platform, but if it doesn't >> have >> developer /mindshare/, people won't try it. How do you think they'll find >> their way to Smalltalk/Pharo? By divination? >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866722.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> > |
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In reply to this post by kilon.alios
I looked at JNIPort. It's **very** limited in its capabilities. "Improving" it may be an insurmountable task.
Redline's approach was very attractive. Relatively clean and elegant, and quite capable. It's a pity James Ladd couldn't get back to the project. |
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Well if you want to work on redline and improve it , none will stop you, its a free... software... afterall ;) Simply complaining about things wont change much if anything. https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort/commits On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 7:17 PM horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: I looked at JNIPort. It's **very** limited in its capabilities. "Improving" |
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This post was updated on .
Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention.
 This mentality says that "if you build it, they will come." Keep improving the platform and eventually people will find it. Or not. You don't really care. (As an aside, how will they find it???) This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The tool is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while they're welcome to join, will not be missed if they go elsewhere. This mentality says that the size of the Pharo community is not especially important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as you're having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality is that a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community that grows large enough to support it. In other words, until the user community reaches critical mass, a strong library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the breadth of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited. Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming language? Especially one that purports to be general purpose.
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On 12-12-15 22:45, horrido wrote:
> Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. ... > Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming > language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**. Oh please, can you stop this nonsense? If you want to learn something about strategy, read the blog I posted earlier about, and create some Wardley maps for us. Your situational awareness is lacking. Strategy means making choices. Stephan |
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In reply to this post by horrido
> On Dec 12, 2015, at 18:45, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. > > This mentality says that "if you build it, they will come." Keep improving > the platform and eventually people will find it. **Or not.** You don't > really care. (As an aside, **how** will they find it???) You are ignoring the fact that Pharo is being taught in multiple universities and people like Stef and have made many ‘evangelization’ talks and ‘beginner’ courses in different places. There are screencasts being made and blog posts being written by various people and pushed on hacker news sites (all occasionally), plus other publicity work that escapes me at the moment. It would be great to be able to do more, but our resources are extremely limited. Sadly, that’s just the way it is and instead of complaining about it we go and do what we do best. For some this is coding, for other this is documenting (had a look at books.pharo.org lately?), for others this is evangelizing. > This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The tool > is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while > they're welcome to join, *will not be missed if they go elsewhere*. The goal of Pharo is not to conquer all programmers and programming tasks. This is not a religion, nor the next startup that will revolutionize the world. We cannot be everything to everybody, so yes the people that choose to go elsewhere will not be missed. I prefer to spend my limited resources to where I can have a positive impact. > This mentality says that the *size* of the Pharo community is not especially > important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as > *you're* having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality is > that **a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community that > grows large enough to support it**. Side is not everything. Actually the user community *is* large for the niche product that we have, but much much more important than that is that it is very *active*. I am involved in other communities that are huge but where *nothing* happens (e.g. ROS). We have a good set of base libraries that are actually quite well maintained and the community is very helpful when issues crop up (again, compared to e.g. ROS). > In other words, until the user community reaches **critical mass**, a strong > library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the breadth > of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited. > > Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming > language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**. Give us the money and the influence that e.g. Sun had for Java, or Microsoft for C# or .net, or Apple for Objective C and Swift. Sure we would not have the limits that you speak of. But we are not that. We have *no* resources, compared to what these giants have. So, again, with the limited resources we are doing all that we can, and *having an impact* e.g. http://pharo.org/success On a personal note, your mail sounds accusing and it hurts when I read it, which is why I responded. We are doing what we can with the resources that we have. If you want a positive effect, an outreached hand will yield much better results than a pointing finger. ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD and RyCh labs - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile |
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Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying to steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation is objective, not defamatory. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I look for possible solutions.
It is precisely because of limited funding and influence that a group such as yours should be more creative and openminded in how to advance the cause of Smalltalk. For example, I have no resources whatsoever, but in my own way, I've tried hard to advocate for Smalltalk using a marketing strategy. I use whatever is available to me for free. I publish articles that are sometimes controversial, but always thought-provoking. They draw attention to Smalltalk. They spur debate. Ultimately, the goal is to get people to think about Smalltalk. Otherwise, it gets forgotten. Out of sight, out of mind. Okay, it's good that Pharo is being taught in some schools. But how many schools are there in the world, and how many are NOT teaching Pharo? Look at the United States and Canada, for example. Despite the evangelizing efforts so far, the needle hasn't moved for Smalltalk. At least, not in any way measurable to the public. At some point, one has to ask, "is this working?", and if not, "how can we do things differently?" Why are you afraid to ask these questions? Smalltalk is not a religion. The goal is not to conquer all programmers, nor all programming tasks. But increasing the breadth of applicability so that Smalltalk benefits more of the IT world is surely a worthy ambition. Right now, it's barely a blip on the radar of most businesses. That can't be a satisfactory state of affairs. In terms of this discussion, yes, size is everything. Smalltalk's library ecosystem is demonstrably weak. (I dare you to ask me to provide an example.) Why is this okay? A strong ecosystem would make Smalltalk/Pharo much more useful to many more people in the IT world. And how do you build a strong ecosystem? By growing the user community sufficiently large. We've seen this scenario play out over and over and over again...with Python...with Java...with JavaScript...with Scala...and soon with Go. That's why popularity matters. Please, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm trying to change the direction of an ocean liner because I believe it's not moving in the right direction. Obviously, this is a monumental task. One last point: If Stephan's Wardley maps have been used by Pharo recently, then I submit they haven't had the desired effects. Unless Pharo's status quo is the desired outcome, in which case, I find that sad. |
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In reply to this post by kilon.alios
Le 12/12/2015 12:51, Dimitris Chloupis a écrit :
> Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well. > > On Android its still a work in progress but its improving WIP but you can already get it working Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.drgeo.android Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu |
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