PharoLauncher as the default Pharo download on pharo.org?

Hi guys,

what do you think about setting the PharoLauncher as the default
download for mac os x users?

If you never tried the launcher, please try it now:

Mac OS X: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoLauncher-Mac-Package/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/pharo-ci/Pharo%203.0.0.dmg
Ubuntu : https://launchpad.net/~pharo/+archive/stable
Others: http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Pharo/PharoLauncher

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without
losing enthusiasm."
Winston Churchill

On 20 Dec 2013, at 10:44, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> what do you think about setting the PharoLauncher as the default
> download for mac os x users?

I would start by featuring it more prominently on the download page while explaining clearly what it does. Maybe it also needs its own documentation/promotion web page.

I am an old-school guy, I just double-click on images to open them. So I guess that as long as that keeps on working I don't really mind what the default behavior for other cases is.

But I do agree that there should be more explanation on how to use the launcher (and some publicity). As is, how it works is not intuitive to me.

On Dec 20, 2013, at 7:45 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:



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Johan Fabry   -   http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  -  University of Chile

Also, I think it is very wrong to keep the images in the Library folder by default. The Library is "hidden" and a "black magic - do not touch" area for the common user. A sensible default is the Documents folder.

On Dec 20, 2013, at 6:44 AM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]> wrote:



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PLEIAD lab  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  -  University of Chile

Yes, but this depends if you want to show image, changes, etc… file to users or not. For me it’s ok as far as I have enough tools to manipulate images

Uko

On 20 Dec 2013, at 14:40, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sure. As I said before, I am old-school and double click on my images. So for me they are just documents, like any other, and I use the finder extensively for all my document manipulation stuff. I don't want to open a special tool to do the stuff I can do already in the finder. Also having megas and megas of images (which are just documents) in a "hidden, black magic" folder just makes my hairs stand on end, so I needed to communicate all those feelings.

On Dec 20, 2013, at 10:46 AM, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote:



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PLEIAD lab  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  -  University of Chile

2013/12/20 Johan Fabry <[hidden email]>:
>
> Sure. As I said before, I am old-school and double click on my images. So for me they are just documents, like any other, and I use the finder extensively for all my document manipulation stuff. I don't want to open a special tool to do the stuff I can do already in the finder. Also having megas and megas of images (which are just documents) in a "hidden, black magic" folder just makes my hairs stand on end, so I needed to communicate all those feelings.

+1

Everything that does "magic" behind the curtains must be 100% safe and
predictable.

I like to somehow "hide" the complexity of file management to the end
users, but we're developers, so I like to see my files "there" in the
directory I chose to put them.

I like the "import" feature of IDEs like Eclipse (without copying
everything to the workspace), where I can have everything at reach,
without resorting to put everything in the same place.

Regards,

Esteban

Just of curiosity, do you use iTunes, or organise music in directories by yourself? :)

Uko

On 20 Dec 2013, at 14:54, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think we should offer both: launcher for newbies and simple images like now for power users.
 

On 20 Dec 2013, at 14:35, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 20 Dec 2013, at 14:40, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Also, I think it is very wrong to keep the images in the Library folder by default. The Library is "hidden" and a "black magic - do not touch" area for the common user. A sensible default is the Documents folder.

in this one, I’m with you… using Library folder is just plain wrong.

Esteban

On 20 Dec 2013, at 15:04, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just of curiosity, do you use iTunes, or organise music in directories by yourself? :)

+1 :)

After long consideration of the subject, I allow iTunes to organize music because:
- it structures things how *I* want them to be structured : Music -> Artists -> Albums -> track name with number.
- they are in the right place: the Music directory. Not in Library

If iTunes would behave differently in any of the above 2, I would not allow it to organize music.

On Dec 20, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just of curiosity, do you use iTunes, or organise music in directories by yourself? :)
>
> Uko
>
> On 20 Dec 2013, at 14:54, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Sure. As I said before, I am old-school and double click on my images. So for me they are just documents, like any other, and I use the finder extensively for all my document manipulation stuff. I don't want to open a special tool to do the stuff I can do already in the finder. Also having megas and megas of images (which are just documents) in a "hidden, black magic" folder just makes my hairs stand on end, so I needed to communicate all those feelings.



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PLEIAD lab  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  -  University of Chile

Ah, and I *hate* that when I remove music in iTunes that I have to confirm that I want the files to be moved to the trash and not leave them on disc. Trash it already! That's what it means to delete music! I don't want to have a bunch of orphaned files taking up space.

On Dec 20, 2013, at 11:11 AM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:



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PLEIAD lab  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  -  University of Chile

2013/12/20 Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]>:
> Just of curiosity, do you use iTunes, or organise music in directories by yourself? :)

I moved from file based management (by myself) to services like
Spotify/Grooveshark.

I skipped the iTunes like music management.

--
Esteban.

Johan, I don't use a Mac so...  Is the "Show in folder" menu item not sufficient to make it less black-magic - or is there a greater cultural aversion to putting images under Library?

Damien, Maybe for cross-platform consistency that is a Pharo feature (mostly), this should wait until there are similar installers for Windows & Linux - and my apologies I hadn't had time to work on the Windows installer - work picked up but hopefully the Christmas break will give me some time.

cheers -ben

Johan Fabry wrote:

Also, I think it is very wrong to keep the images in the Library folder by default. The Library is "hidden" and a "black magic - do not touch" area for the common user. A sensible default is the Documents folder. 

On Dec 20, 2013, at 6:44 AM, Damien Cassou [hidden email] wrote:

  

Hi guys,

what do you think about setting the PharoLauncher as the default
download for mac os x users?

If you never tried the launcher, please try it now:

Mac OS X: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoLauncher-Mac-Package/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/pharo-ci/Pharo%203.0.0.dmg
Ubuntu : https://launchpad.net/~pharo/+archive/stable
Others: http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Pharo/PharoLauncher

-- 
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without
losing enthusiasm."
Winston Churchill


    

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Johan Fabry   -   http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  -  University of Chile



  

Hi Ben,

It's cultural I would say. The purpose of the Library folder is to hold preferences, caches, et cetera. Never user documents. There is a bunch of stuff in there that actually I don't even have an idea of. Moreover, as standard the Library is a hidden folder now.

On Dec 22, 2013, at 7:50 AM, [hidden email] wrote:



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PLEIAD lab  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  -  University of Chile

On 22/12/2013 14:04, Johan Fabry wrote:

>>> Also, I think it is very wrong to keep the images in the Library
folder by default. The Library is "hidden" and a "black magic - do not
touch" area for the common user. A sensible default is the Documents folder.


If a user thinks the Library is black magic then they won't be
manipulating images outside of Pharo and PharoLauncher. (as I don't
think they will be capable of doing so)

> Hi Ben,
>
> It's cultural I would say. The purpose of the Library folder is to
hold preferences, caches, et cetera. Never user documents. There is a
bunch of stuff in there that actually I don't even have an idea of.
Moreover, as standard the Library is a hidden folder now.
>

I think this is a misreading of Apple's directory design. It is for more
than preferences and caches but for all app-specific files

Apple's doc
<https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/FileManagement/Conceptual/FileSystemProgrammingGuide/FileSystemOverview/FileSystemOverview.html>
says "Apps should use the Library directory to store app-specific (or
system-specific) resources."

My view is images are app-specific

If Pharo Launcher does enough to do all the image manipulation you need
- I think it does except for dealing with Save As.. from Pharo itself,
then you do not need to have it manipulated by other tools.

Also if you want to do something using an image not by Pharo then you
almost certainly know enough to be able to use the Library. The
~/Library is hidden to stop users messing around with files as they have
found it saves a lot of support to hide these. I would also not in
Mavericks i.e. the latest version of OSX making the Library visible is a
toggle on the GUI for the Library directory.

For example Amazon's Kindle app puts the ebooks in ~/Library/Application
Support/Kindle and these seem to me similar to Pharo images


I think things should be in ~/Documents if they can be edited/seen in
multiple applications. e.g


> On Dec 22, 2013, at 7:50 AM,
[hidden email] wrote:
>
>> Johan, I don't use a Mac so... Is the "Show in folder" menu item
>> not
sufficient to make it less black-magic - or is there a greater cultural
aversion to putting images under Library?
>>
>> Damien, Maybe for cross-platform consistency that is a Pharo
>> feature
(mostly), this should wait until there are similar installers for
Windows & Linux - and my apologies I hadn't had time to work on the
Windows installer - work picked up but hopefully the Christmas break
will give me some time.



--
Mark

On Dec 22, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Mark Bestley <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 22/12/2013 14:04, Johan Fabry wrote:
>
>>>> Also, I think it is very wrong to keep the images in the Library
>>>> folder by default. The Library is "hidden" and a "black magic - do not
>>>> touch" area for the common user. A sensible default is the Documents folder.
>
> If a user thinks the Library is black magic then they won't be manipulating images outside of Pharo and PharoLauncher. (as I don't think they will be capable of doing so)

I am a counter-example. *I* think the Library is black magic and I manipulate images in the finder.

> I think this is a misreading of Apple's directory design. It is for more than preferences and caches but for all app-specific files

I am not knowledgeable on the design intent of Apple. I am just a user, and looking at what is inside the Library folder is scary. I have no documents of mine in there.

I will stop here, I think I made my point. Feel free to disagree :-)

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry   -   http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD lab  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  -  University of Chile