Playground and text evaluation printing result default.
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Hi
I would like to know if there is a setting to remove the "" when printing the result of an expression. I know that playground has been thought to help me, but today I watched myself removing the comments code so often that I would like to get a setting because such wrapping of results is really boring for me. I'm spending my time removing them and I start to wonder why they are any useful. I would help me to write fast tests for example in the debugger. Stef |
Re: Playground and text evaluation printing result default.
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Hi Stef,
The quotes appear only when you add the result in the playground. The typical use case for this is to keep track of several results. In this situation you do not want to modify the code to not affect the highlighting and this is why it gets in a comment. If you want to copy the content without quotes, you can do: Cmd+p -> popup Cmd+c -> selects the current line and copies the text Esc Cmd+v Perhaps we can add another keybinding like Shift+Enter for adding the text without quotes. Cheers, Doru > On Jun 5, 2016, at 10:20 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi > > I would like to know if there is a setting to remove the "" when printing the result of an expression. > > I know that playground has been thought to help me, but today I watched myself removing the comments > > code so often that I would like to get a setting because such wrapping of results is really boring for me. > > I'm spending my time removing them and I start to wonder why they are any useful. > > I would help me to write fast tests for example in the debugger. > > Stef > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "What we can governs what we wish." |
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Le 5/6/16 à 23:00, Tudor Girba a écrit : > Hi Stef, > > The quotes appear only when you add the result in the playground. No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. > The typical use case for this is to keep track of several results. No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. > In this situation you do not want to modify the code to not affect the highlighting and this is why it gets in a comment. This is fun because I never ever needed it. But this is probably what everybody else is doing that since this is the default. I just write simple code and tests. Indeed I'm not that smart. But your tools only embedd your scenario and let the other users forced to adapt. Well you do not want but I do. I spent my evening removing quotes while writing tests. What I hate with the GTTools is that you want to teach me how I should work. Sorry but good tools do not do that. Good tools empower the users and not constraint them. I work a lot faster when I do not have to remove the wonderful comments or when I have to copy and paste. This commenting is breaking the flow of efficient people. May be GT team do not work write tests in the debugger but I do most of the time and I'm forced by the environment to remove quotes all over the places. > If you want to copy the content without quotes, you can do: > Cmd+p -> popup > Cmd+c -> selects the current line and copies the text > Esc > Cmd+v Sorry but I do not want. I just want to print and modify directly. 7 keystrokes vs 2 > Perhaps we can add another keybinding like Shift+Enter for adding the text without quotes. And why not the inverse. By default printing is printing and if you want to do something else then you have a special binding. Now I'm upset with this general attitude (Oh I will teach how you can be a nice user) that I will turn them off or go and hack my own settings. Still I'm amazingly sad about this state of affair. All these story about GT is hurting me because of this attitude: we are so smart and we thought a lot and we will teach you how you should work... and at the end I the end-user has to adapt. Look at the Spotter discussions: you looked for the graal and I was just telling to you that I cannot find simple information such as class refs! So what saddens me the most is that - you pretend to have end-user trying your tools but I have impression that they are not real power users or this is yourself and it means that you are never exposed to other people. I can still not use Spotter because the way I put my hand on my keyboard. So should change - 1 my hands - 2 my brain - 3 my keyboard - 4 do not use the tools? - funnily enough if I would not have complain aggressively then it looks like we would have the same than before. Your flow is not mine and I go faster my way but your tools force me to get slow. I do not have the time to produce a video but I would even if it would give a bad press to Pharo. I will do a presentation in the rmod team. Because people do not watch themselves why acting. Good tools empower the users not constraint them. GTTools feel often like an overengineer guitar that would have hampered Jimmy Hendrix to do crazy solos. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > >> On Jun 5, 2016, at 10:20 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> I would like to know if there is a setting to remove the "" when printing the result of an expression. >> >> I know that playground has been thought to help me, but today I watched myself removing the comments >> >> code so often that I would like to get a setting because such wrapping of results is really boring for me. >> >> I'm spending my time removing them and I start to wonder why they are any useful. >> >> I would help me to write fast tests for example in the debugger. >> >> Stef >> >> >> > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "What we can governs what we wish." > > > > > > |
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On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Le 5/6/16 à 23:00, Tudor Girba a écrit : >> >> Hi Stef, >> >> The quotes appear only when you add the result in the playground. > > > No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >> >> The typical use case for this is to keep track of several results. > > No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >> >> In this situation you do not want to modify the code to not affect the >> highlighting and this is why it gets in a comment. > > This is fun because I never ever needed it. But this is probably what > everybody else is doing that since this is the default. > I just write simple code and tests. Indeed I'm not that smart. > > But your tools only embedd your scenario and let the other users forced to > adapt. > > Well you do not want but I do. > I spent my evening removing quotes while writing tests. > > What I hate with the GTTools is that you want to teach me how I should work. > Sorry but good tools do not do that. > Good tools empower the users and not constraint them. > > I work a lot faster when I do not have to remove the wonderful comments or > when I have to copy and paste. > This commenting is breaking the flow of efficient people. May be GT team do > not work write tests in the > debugger but I do most of the time and I'm forced by the environment to > remove quotes all over the places. >> >> If you want to copy the content without quotes, you can do: >> Cmd+p -> popup >> Cmd+c -> selects the current line and copies the text >> Esc >> Cmd+v > > Sorry but I do not want. > I just want to print and modify directly. > 7 keystrokes vs 2 >> >> Perhaps we can add another keybinding like Shift+Enter for adding the text >> without quotes. I just had a play with this, and another option might be <ctrl-enter>, since the <ctrl> key is still selection from doing <ctrl-P> so there is not much difference in hand movements between <enter> and <ctrl-enter> cheers -ben > > And why not the inverse. > By default printing is printing and if you want to do something else then > you have a special binding. > Now I'm upset with this general attitude (Oh I will teach how you can be a > nice user) that I will turn them off > or go and hack my own settings. Still I'm amazingly sad about this state of > affair. > All these story about GT is hurting me because of this attitude: we are so > smart and we thought a lot and we will teach you > how you should work... and at the end I the end-user has to adapt. > Look at the Spotter discussions: you looked for the graal and I was just > telling to you that I cannot find > simple information such as class refs! > > So what saddens me the most is that > - you pretend to have end-user trying your tools but I have impression > that they are not real power users > or this is yourself and it means that you are never exposed to other > people. > I can still not use Spotter because the way I put my hand on my > keyboard. So should change > - 1 my hands > - 2 my brain > - 3 my keyboard > - 4 do not use the tools? > - funnily enough if I would not have complain aggressively then it looks > like we would have the same than before. > > Your flow is not mine and I go faster my way but your tools force me to get > slow. > I do not have the time to produce a video but I would even if it would give > a bad press to Pharo. > I will do a presentation in the rmod team. Because people do not watch > themselves why acting. > > Good tools empower the users not constraint them. > > GTTools feel often like an overengineer guitar that would have hampered > Jimmy Hendrix to do crazy solos. > >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> >>> On Jun 5, 2016, at 10:20 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> Hi >>> >>> I would like to know if there is a setting to remove the "" when printing >>> the result of an expression. >>> >>> I know that playground has been thought to help me, but today I watched >>> myself removing the comments >>> >>> code so often that I would like to get a setting because such wrapping of >>> results is really boring for me. >>> >>> I'm spending my time removing them and I start to wonder why they are any >>> useful. >>> >>> I would help me to write fast tests for example in the debugger. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> www.feenk.com >> >> "What we can governs what we wish." >> >> >> >> >> >> > > |
Re: Playground and text evaluation printing result default.
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The #printString of most objects is not valid Pharo syntax, it makes sense to put those into comments, so that the overall syntax of the workspace/playground is maintained and syntax highlighting can operate normally.
A result printed as a comment is also easy to select (by double-clicking next to the $" on the inside). All this makes sense for literal programming (assuming that is what you are after). What is the use case for not doing it like that ? Why do you want the comments gone ? > On 07 Jun 2016, at 13:03, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >> Le 5/6/16 à 23:00, Tudor Girba a écrit : >>> >>> Hi Stef, >>> >>> The quotes appear only when you add the result in the playground. >> >> >> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>> >>> The typical use case for this is to keep track of several results. >> >> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>> >>> In this situation you do not want to modify the code to not affect the >>> highlighting and this is why it gets in a comment. >> >> This is fun because I never ever needed it. But this is probably what >> everybody else is doing that since this is the default. >> I just write simple code and tests. Indeed I'm not that smart. >> >> But your tools only embedd your scenario and let the other users forced to >> adapt. >> >> Well you do not want but I do. >> I spent my evening removing quotes while writing tests. >> >> What I hate with the GTTools is that you want to teach me how I should work. >> Sorry but good tools do not do that. >> Good tools empower the users and not constraint them. >> >> I work a lot faster when I do not have to remove the wonderful comments or >> when I have to copy and paste. >> This commenting is breaking the flow of efficient people. May be GT team do >> not work write tests in the >> debugger but I do most of the time and I'm forced by the environment to >> remove quotes all over the places. >>> >>> If you want to copy the content without quotes, you can do: >>> Cmd+p -> popup >>> Cmd+c -> selects the current line and copies the text >>> Esc >>> Cmd+v >> >> Sorry but I do not want. >> I just want to print and modify directly. >> 7 keystrokes vs 2 >>> >>> Perhaps we can add another keybinding like Shift+Enter for adding the text >>> without quotes. > > I just had a play with this, and another option might be <ctrl-enter>, > since the <ctrl> key is still selection from doing <ctrl-P> so there > is not much difference in hand movements between <enter> and > <ctrl-enter> > > cheers -ben > >> >> And why not the inverse. >> By default printing is printing and if you want to do something else then >> you have a special binding. > > > >> Now I'm upset with this general attitude (Oh I will teach how you can be a >> nice user) that I will turn them off >> or go and hack my own settings. Still I'm amazingly sad about this state of >> affair. >> All these story about GT is hurting me because of this attitude: we are so >> smart and we thought a lot and we will teach you >> how you should work... and at the end I the end-user has to adapt. >> Look at the Spotter discussions: you looked for the graal and I was just >> telling to you that I cannot find >> simple information such as class refs! >> >> So what saddens me the most is that >> - you pretend to have end-user trying your tools but I have impression >> that they are not real power users >> or this is yourself and it means that you are never exposed to other >> people. >> I can still not use Spotter because the way I put my hand on my >> keyboard. So should change >> - 1 my hands >> - 2 my brain >> - 3 my keyboard >> - 4 do not use the tools? >> - funnily enough if I would not have complain aggressively then it looks >> like we would have the same than before. >> >> Your flow is not mine and I go faster my way but your tools force me to get >> slow. >> I do not have the time to produce a video but I would even if it would give >> a bad press to Pharo. >> I will do a presentation in the rmod team. Because people do not watch >> themselves why acting. >> >> Good tools empower the users not constraint them. >> >> GTTools feel often like an overengineer guitar that would have hampered >> Jimmy Hendrix to do crazy solos. >> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 5, 2016, at 10:20 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> I would like to know if there is a setting to remove the "" when printing >>>> the result of an expression. >>>> >>>> I know that playground has been thought to help me, but today I watched >>>> myself removing the comments >>>> >>>> code so often that I would like to get a setting because such wrapping of >>>> results is really boring for me. >>>> >>>> I'm spending my time removing them and I start to wonder why they are any >>>> useful. >>>> >>>> I would help me to write fast tests for example in the debugger. >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> www.feenk.com >>> >>> "What we can governs what we wish." |
Re: Playground and text evaluation printing result default.
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In reply to this post by stepharo
Hi Stef,
Thanks for the feedback. Sorry for the long email, but I you raised several issues and I thought it is worth addressing them. The feature we are talking about came into being after several suggestions on this mailing list (and quite some long discussions) that had the scenario of keeping track of several executions. In the first version of the Playground it was not possible to paste directly in the playground. We did not impose anything, it was the contrary. From your email I see that you would rather prefer the variant of embedding the text as is after pressing Enter. Is this correct? Here is another variant: - Cmd+p - Cmd+v ==> paste the string directly in the editor without comments I think this would fit well. What do you think? More replies about Spotter inline. > On Jun 7, 2016, at 8:09 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > Le 5/6/16 à 23:00, Tudor Girba a écrit : >> Hi Stef, >> >> The quotes appear only when you add the result in the playground. > > No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >> The typical use case for this is to keep track of several results. > No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >> In this situation you do not want to modify the code to not affect the highlighting and this is why it gets in a comment. > This is fun because I never ever needed it. But this is probably what everybody else is doing that since this is the default. > I just write simple code and tests. Indeed I'm not that smart. > > But your tools only embedd your scenario and let the other users forced to adapt. > > Well you do not want but I do. > I spent my evening removing quotes while writing tests. > > What I hate with the GTTools is that you want to teach me how I should work. Sorry but good tools do not do that. > Good tools empower the users and not constraint them. > > I work a lot faster when I do not have to remove the wonderful comments or when I have to copy and paste. > This commenting is breaking the flow of efficient people. May be GT team do not work write tests in the > debugger but I do most of the time and I'm forced by the environment to remove quotes all over the places. >> If you want to copy the content without quotes, you can do: >> Cmd+p -> popup >> Cmd+c -> selects the current line and copies the text >> Esc >> Cmd+v > Sorry but I do not want. > I just want to print and modify directly. > 7 keystrokes vs 2 >> Perhaps we can add another keybinding like Shift+Enter for adding the text without quotes. > And why not the inverse. > By default printing is printing and if you want to do something else then you have a special binding. > > Now I'm upset with this general attitude (Oh I will teach how you can be a nice user) that I will turn them off > or go and hack my own settings. Still I'm amazingly sad about this state of affair. > All these story about GT is hurting me because of this attitude: we are so smart and we thought a lot and we will teach you You are mistaken here. We propose solutions that are different because this is the only way to get to something new, but afterwards we iterate multiple times, sometimes even a long time after the introduction of the original feature. For example, for the problem you are mentioning with the Playground appears 1.5 years after we introduced the Playground. The fact that they these interfaces are new breaks existing reflexes and the iterations that happen after are focused mostly on trying to figure out whether this is inconvenient because is new or because it is actually suboptimal. This discussion is one of those. We wanted to solve the most often appearing case in which we use Cmd+p as a way to preview quickly the result. Pasting the code in the existing playground is an edge case for Cmd+p, not the primary case. After having proposed a solution for the primary problem, people raised the issue of the temporary results and then we created the idea of Enter and have comments. This might not be your use case, but others have it. > how you should work... and at the end I the end-user has to adapt. > Look at the Spotter discussions: you looked for the graal and I was just telling to you that I cannot find > simple information such as class refs! > > So what saddens me the most is that > - you pretend to have end-user trying your tools but I have impression that they are not real power users > or this is yourself and it means that you are never exposed to other people. > I can still not use Spotter because the way I put my hand on my keyboard. So should change > - 1 my hands > - 2 my brain > - 3 my keyboard > - 4 do not use the tools? > - funnily enough if I would not have complain aggressively then it looks like we would have the same than before. This is incorrect. If you would not complain aggressively, we would simply have a smoother conversation about solutions. > Your flow is not mine and I go faster my way but your tools force me to get slow. > I do not have the time to produce a video but I would even if it would give a bad press to Pharo. > I will do a presentation in the rmod team. Because people do not watch themselves why acting. Let’s do a remote session and I watch you do things. This week I am available this Thursday morning or Friday after 11. > Good tools empower the users not constraint them. > > GTTools feel often like an overengineer guitar that would have hampered Jimmy Hendrix to do crazy solos. Could well be. Doru >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> >>> On Jun 5, 2016, at 10:20 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> Hi >>> >>> I would like to know if there is a setting to remove the "" when printing the result of an expression. >>> >>> I know that playground has been thought to help me, but today I watched myself removing the comments >>> >>> code so often that I would like to get a setting because such wrapping of results is really boring for me. >>> >>> I'm spending my time removing them and I start to wonder why they are any useful. >>> >>> I would help me to write fast tests for example in the debugger. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> www.feenk.com >> >> "What we can governs what we wish." >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Obvious things are difficult to teach." |
Re: Playground and text evaluation printing result default.
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
Hi Sven,
If I understand correctly, Stef talks about the case of building tests in the debugger. There he tries an expression and then wants to capture the result of the expression as an assertion in the code so he wants to paste the result directly. It is a different scenario than the one of capturing results that we store as comments for further reference. Cheers, Doru > On Jun 7, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > > The #printString of most objects is not valid Pharo syntax, it makes sense to put those into comments, so that the overall syntax of the workspace/playground is maintained and syntax highlighting can operate normally. > > A result printed as a comment is also easy to select (by double-clicking next to the $" on the inside). > > All this makes sense for literal programming (assuming that is what you are after). > > What is the use case for not doing it like that ? Why do you want the comments gone ? > >> On 07 Jun 2016, at 13:03, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Le 5/6/16 à 23:00, Tudor Girba a écrit : >>>> >>>> Hi Stef, >>>> >>>> The quotes appear only when you add the result in the playground. >>> >>> >>> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>>> >>>> The typical use case for this is to keep track of several results. >>> >>> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>>> >>>> In this situation you do not want to modify the code to not affect the >>>> highlighting and this is why it gets in a comment. >>> >>> This is fun because I never ever needed it. But this is probably what >>> everybody else is doing that since this is the default. >>> I just write simple code and tests. Indeed I'm not that smart. >>> >>> But your tools only embedd your scenario and let the other users forced to >>> adapt. >>> >>> Well you do not want but I do. >>> I spent my evening removing quotes while writing tests. >>> >>> What I hate with the GTTools is that you want to teach me how I should work. >>> Sorry but good tools do not do that. >>> Good tools empower the users and not constraint them. >>> >>> I work a lot faster when I do not have to remove the wonderful comments or >>> when I have to copy and paste. >>> This commenting is breaking the flow of efficient people. May be GT team do >>> not work write tests in the >>> debugger but I do most of the time and I'm forced by the environment to >>> remove quotes all over the places. >>>> >>>> If you want to copy the content without quotes, you can do: >>>> Cmd+p -> popup >>>> Cmd+c -> selects the current line and copies the text >>>> Esc >>>> Cmd+v >>> >>> Sorry but I do not want. >>> I just want to print and modify directly. >>> 7 keystrokes vs 2 >>>> >>>> Perhaps we can add another keybinding like Shift+Enter for adding the text >>>> without quotes. >> >> I just had a play with this, and another option might be <ctrl-enter>, >> since the <ctrl> key is still selection from doing <ctrl-P> so there >> is not much difference in hand movements between <enter> and >> <ctrl-enter> >> >> cheers -ben >> >>> >>> And why not the inverse. >>> By default printing is printing and if you want to do something else then >>> you have a special binding. >> >> >> >>> Now I'm upset with this general attitude (Oh I will teach how you can be a >>> nice user) that I will turn them off >>> or go and hack my own settings. Still I'm amazingly sad about this state of >>> affair. >>> All these story about GT is hurting me because of this attitude: we are so >>> smart and we thought a lot and we will teach you >>> how you should work... and at the end I the end-user has to adapt. >>> Look at the Spotter discussions: you looked for the graal and I was just >>> telling to you that I cannot find >>> simple information such as class refs! >>> >>> So what saddens me the most is that >>> - you pretend to have end-user trying your tools but I have impression >>> that they are not real power users >>> or this is yourself and it means that you are never exposed to other >>> people. >>> I can still not use Spotter because the way I put my hand on my >>> keyboard. So should change >>> - 1 my hands >>> - 2 my brain >>> - 3 my keyboard >>> - 4 do not use the tools? >>> - funnily enough if I would not have complain aggressively then it looks >>> like we would have the same than before. >>> >>> Your flow is not mine and I go faster my way but your tools force me to get >>> slow. >>> I do not have the time to produce a video but I would even if it would give >>> a bad press to Pharo. >>> I will do a presentation in the rmod team. Because people do not watch >>> themselves why acting. >>> >>> Good tools empower the users not constraint them. >>> >>> GTTools feel often like an overengineer guitar that would have hampered >>> Jimmy Hendrix to do crazy solos. >>> >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 5, 2016, at 10:20 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi >>>>> >>>>> I would like to know if there is a setting to remove the "" when printing >>>>> the result of an expression. >>>>> >>>>> I know that playground has been thought to help me, but today I watched >>>>> myself removing the comments >>>>> >>>>> code so often that I would like to get a setting because such wrapping of >>>>> results is really boring for me. >>>>> >>>>> I'm spending my time removing them and I start to wonder why they are any >>>>> useful. >>>>> >>>>> I would help me to write fast tests for example in the debugger. >>>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> www.feenk.com >>>> >>>> "What we can governs what we wish." > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it." |
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On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 5:39 AM, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Sven, > > If I understand correctly, Stef talks about the case of building tests in the debugger. There he tries an expression and then wants to capture the result of the expression as an assertion in the code so he wants to paste the result directly. It is a different scenario than the one of capturing results that we store as comments for further reference. > > Cheers, > Doru > > >> On Jun 7, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> The #printString of most objects is not valid Pharo syntax, it makes sense to put those into comments, so that the overall syntax of the workspace/playground is maintained and syntax highlighting can operate normally. This might be too much a corner case, but I wonder... If the domain object provided a sufficiently distinguishing printString, then a shortcut that appended the CTRL-P result.... printString = 'aDomainObject(''identifer'') to the selected text might provide an interesting workflow for developing tests in the debugger. Maybe it could be CTRL-P + CTRL-T (for test) ? A video demo of such might provide a good example of programming in an immersive environment. What other environment could do this? cheers -ben >> >> A result printed as a comment is also easy to select (by double-clicking next to the $" on the inside). >> >> All this makes sense for literal programming (assuming that is what you are after). >> >> What is the use case for not doing it like that ? Why do you want the comments gone ? >> >>> On 07 Jun 2016, at 13:03, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 5/6/16 à 23:00, Tudor Girba a écrit : >>>>> >>>>> Hi Stef, >>>>> >>>>> The quotes appear only when you add the result in the playground. >>>> >>>> >>>> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>>>> >>>>> The typical use case for this is to keep track of several results. >>>> >>>> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>>>> >>>>> In this situation you do not want to modify the code to not affect the >>>>> highlighting and this is why it gets in a comment. >>>> >>>> This is fun because I never ever needed it. But this is probably what >>>> everybody else is doing that since this is the default. >>>> I just write simple code and tests. Indeed I'm not that smart. >>>> >>>> But your tools only embedd your scenario and let the other users forced to >>>> adapt. >>>> >>>> Well you do not want but I do. >>>> I spent my evening removing quotes while writing tests. >>>> >>>> What I hate with the GTTools is that you want to teach me how I should work. >>>> Sorry but good tools do not do that. >>>> Good tools empower the users and not constraint them. >>>> >>>> I work a lot faster when I do not have to remove the wonderful comments or >>>> when I have to copy and paste. >>>> This commenting is breaking the flow of efficient people. May be GT team do >>>> not work write tests in the >>>> debugger but I do most of the time and I'm forced by the environment to >>>> remove quotes all over the places. >>>>> >>>>> If you want to copy the content without quotes, you can do: >>>>> Cmd+p -> popup >>>>> Cmd+c -> selects the current line and copies the text >>>>> Esc >>>>> Cmd+v >>>> >>>> Sorry but I do not want. >>>> I just want to print and modify directly. >>>> 7 keystrokes vs 2 >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps we can add another keybinding like Shift+Enter for adding the text >>>>> without quotes. >>> >>> I just had a play with this, and another option might be <ctrl-enter>, >>> since the <ctrl> key is still selection from doing <ctrl-P> so there >>> is not much difference in hand movements between <enter> and >>> <ctrl-enter> >>> >>> cheers -ben >>> >>>> >>>> And why not the inverse. >>>> By default printing is printing and if you want to do something else then >>>> you have a special binding. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Now I'm upset with this general attitude (Oh I will teach how you can be a >>>> nice user) that I will turn them off >>>> or go and hack my own settings. Still I'm amazingly sad about this state of >>>> affair. >>>> All these story about GT is hurting me because of this attitude: we are so >>>> smart and we thought a lot and we will teach you >>>> how you should work... and at the end I the end-user has to adapt. >>>> Look at the Spotter discussions: you looked for the graal and I was just >>>> telling to you that I cannot find >>>> simple information such as class refs! >>>> >>>> So what saddens me the most is that >>>> - you pretend to have end-user trying your tools but I have impression >>>> that they are not real power users >>>> or this is yourself and it means that you are never exposed to other >>>> people. >>>> I can still not use Spotter because the way I put my hand on my >>>> keyboard. So should change >>>> - 1 my hands >>>> - 2 my brain >>>> - 3 my keyboard >>>> - 4 do not use the tools? >>>> - funnily enough if I would not have complain aggressively then it looks >>>> like we would have the same than before. >>>> >>>> Your flow is not mine and I go faster my way but your tools force me to get >>>> slow. >>>> I do not have the time to produce a video but I would even if it would give >>>> a bad press to Pharo. >>>> I will do a presentation in the rmod team. Because people do not watch >>>> themselves why acting. >>>> >>>> Good tools empower the users not constraint them. >>>> >>>> GTTools feel often like an overengineer guitar that would have hampered >>>> Jimmy Hendrix to do crazy solos. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Doru >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 5, 2016, at 10:20 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi >>>>>> >>>>>> I would like to know if there is a setting to remove the "" when printing >>>>>> the result of an expression. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know that playground has been thought to help me, but today I watched >>>>>> myself removing the comments >>>>>> >>>>>> code so often that I would like to get a setting because such wrapping of >>>>>> results is really boring for me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm spending my time removing them and I start to wonder why they are any >>>>>> useful. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would help me to write fast tests for example in the debugger. >>>>>> >>>>>> Stef >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>> www.feenk.com >>>>> >>>>> "What we can governs what we wish." >> >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it." > > |
Re: Playground and text evaluation printing result default.
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Hi,
> On Jun 8, 2016, at 2:04 AM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 5:39 AM, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Hi Sven, >> >> If I understand correctly, Stef talks about the case of building tests in the debugger. There he tries an expression and then wants to capture the result of the expression as an assertion in the code so he wants to paste the result directly. It is a different scenario than the one of capturing results that we store as comments for further reference. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >>> On Jun 7, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> The #printString of most objects is not valid Pharo syntax, it makes sense to put those into comments, so that the overall syntax of the workspace/playground is maintained and syntax highlighting can operate normally. > > This might be too much a corner case, but I wonder... > If the domain object provided a sufficiently distinguishing > printString, then a shortcut that appended the CTRL-P result.... > printString = 'aDomainObject(''identifer’') I cannot quite picture what you mean. Could you elaborate. It sounds intriguing? > to the selected text might provide an interesting workflow for > developing tests in the debugger. > Maybe it could be CTRL-P + CTRL-T (for test) ? I proposed Cmd+p Cmd+v (from paste). Cheers, Doru > A video demo of such might provide a good example of programming in an > immersive environment. What other environment could do this? > cheers -ben > > > > > >>> >>> A result printed as a comment is also easy to select (by double-clicking next to the $" on the inside). >>> >>> All this makes sense for literal programming (assuming that is what you are after). >>> >>> What is the use case for not doing it like that ? Why do you want the comments gone ? >>> >>>> On 07 Jun 2016, at 13:03, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Le 5/6/16 à 23:00, Tudor Girba a écrit : >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Stef, >>>>>> >>>>>> The quotes appear only when you add the result in the playground. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>>>>> >>>>>> The typical use case for this is to keep track of several results. >>>>> >>>>> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>>>>> >>>>>> In this situation you do not want to modify the code to not affect the >>>>>> highlighting and this is why it gets in a comment. >>>>> >>>>> This is fun because I never ever needed it. But this is probably what >>>>> everybody else is doing that since this is the default. >>>>> I just write simple code and tests. Indeed I'm not that smart. >>>>> >>>>> But your tools only embedd your scenario and let the other users forced to >>>>> adapt. >>>>> >>>>> Well you do not want but I do. >>>>> I spent my evening removing quotes while writing tests. >>>>> >>>>> What I hate with the GTTools is that you want to teach me how I should work. >>>>> Sorry but good tools do not do that. >>>>> Good tools empower the users and not constraint them. >>>>> >>>>> I work a lot faster when I do not have to remove the wonderful comments or >>>>> when I have to copy and paste. >>>>> This commenting is breaking the flow of efficient people. May be GT team do >>>>> not work write tests in the >>>>> debugger but I do most of the time and I'm forced by the environment to >>>>> remove quotes all over the places. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you want to copy the content without quotes, you can do: >>>>>> Cmd+p -> popup >>>>>> Cmd+c -> selects the current line and copies the text >>>>>> Esc >>>>>> Cmd+v >>>>> >>>>> Sorry but I do not want. >>>>> I just want to print and modify directly. >>>>> 7 keystrokes vs 2 >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps we can add another keybinding like Shift+Enter for adding the text >>>>>> without quotes. >>>> >>>> I just had a play with this, and another option might be <ctrl-enter>, >>>> since the <ctrl> key is still selection from doing <ctrl-P> so there >>>> is not much difference in hand movements between <enter> and >>>> <ctrl-enter> >>>> >>>> cheers -ben >>>> >>>>> >>>>> And why not the inverse. >>>>> By default printing is printing and if you want to do something else then >>>>> you have a special binding. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Now I'm upset with this general attitude (Oh I will teach how you can be a >>>>> nice user) that I will turn them off >>>>> or go and hack my own settings. Still I'm amazingly sad about this state of >>>>> affair. >>>>> All these story about GT is hurting me because of this attitude: we are so >>>>> smart and we thought a lot and we will teach you >>>>> how you should work... and at the end I the end-user has to adapt. >>>>> Look at the Spotter discussions: you looked for the graal and I was just >>>>> telling to you that I cannot find >>>>> simple information such as class refs! >>>>> >>>>> So what saddens me the most is that >>>>> - you pretend to have end-user trying your tools but I have impression >>>>> that they are not real power users >>>>> or this is yourself and it means that you are never exposed to other >>>>> people. >>>>> I can still not use Spotter because the way I put my hand on my >>>>> keyboard. So should change >>>>> - 1 my hands >>>>> - 2 my brain >>>>> - 3 my keyboard >>>>> - 4 do not use the tools? >>>>> - funnily enough if I would not have complain aggressively then it looks >>>>> like we would have the same than before. >>>>> >>>>> Your flow is not mine and I go faster my way but your tools force me to get >>>>> slow. >>>>> I do not have the time to produce a video but I would even if it would give >>>>> a bad press to Pharo. >>>>> I will do a presentation in the rmod team. Because people do not watch >>>>> themselves why acting. >>>>> >>>>> Good tools empower the users not constraint them. >>>>> >>>>> GTTools feel often like an overengineer guitar that would have hampered >>>>> Jimmy Hendrix to do crazy solos. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Doru >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 5, 2016, at 10:20 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would like to know if there is a setting to remove the "" when printing >>>>>>> the result of an expression. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know that playground has been thought to help me, but today I watched >>>>>>> myself removing the comments >>>>>>> >>>>>>> code so often that I would like to get a setting because such wrapping of >>>>>>> results is really boring for me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm spending my time removing them and I start to wonder why they are any >>>>>>> useful. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would help me to write fast tests for example in the debugger. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>> www.feenk.com >>>>>> >>>>>> "What we can governs what we wish." >>> >>> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> www.feenk.com >> >> "It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it." >> >> > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair, you will end up with a messy haircut." |
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
> Hi Stef, > > Thanks for the feedback. Sorry for the long email, but I you raised several issues and I thought it is worth addressing them. > > The feature we are talking about came into being after several suggestions on this mailing list (and quite some long discussions) that had the scenario of keeping track of several executions. In the first version of the Playground it was not possible to paste directly in the playground. We did not impose anything, it was the contrary. and the result is that I can spend time removing spurrious comments. > From your email I see that you would rather prefer the variant of embedding the text as is after pressing Enter. Is this correct? > > Here is another variant: > - Cmd+p > - Cmd+v ==> paste the string directly in the editor without comments why not. but this is confusing with copy paste. So will you corrupt the current selection. So should I trade copy/paste with getting a value printed. May be cmd+r for raw > > I think this would fit well. > > What do you think? > > > More replies about Spotter inline. > > >> On Jun 7, 2016, at 8:09 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >> >> Le 5/6/16 à 23:00, Tudor Girba a écrit : >>> Hi Stef, >>> >>> The quotes appear only when you add the result in the playground. >> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>> The typical use case for this is to keep track of several results. >> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>> In this situation you do not want to modify the code to not affect the highlighting and this is why it gets in a comment. >> This is fun because I never ever needed it. But this is probably what everybody else is doing that since this is the default. >> I just write simple code and tests. Indeed I'm not that smart. >> >> But your tools only embedd your scenario and let the other users forced to adapt. >> >> Well you do not want but I do. >> I spent my evening removing quotes while writing tests. >> >> What I hate with the GTTools is that you want to teach me how I should work. Sorry but good tools do not do that. >> Good tools empower the users and not constraint them. >> >> I work a lot faster when I do not have to remove the wonderful comments or when I have to copy and paste. >> This commenting is breaking the flow of efficient people. May be GT team do not work write tests in the >> debugger but I do most of the time and I'm forced by the environment to remove quotes all over the places. >>> If you want to copy the content without quotes, you can do: >>> Cmd+p -> popup >>> Cmd+c -> selects the current line and copies the text >>> Esc >>> Cmd+v >> Sorry but I do not want. >> I just want to print and modify directly. >> 7 keystrokes vs 2 >>> Perhaps we can add another keybinding like Shift+Enter for adding the text without quotes. >> And why not the inverse. >> By default printing is printing and if you want to do something else then you have a special binding. >> >> Now I'm upset with this general attitude (Oh I will teach how you can be a nice user) that I will turn them off >> or go and hack my own settings. Still I'm amazingly sad about this state of affair. >> All these story about GT is hurting me because of this attitude: we are so smart and we thought a lot and we will teach you > You are mistaken here. We propose solutions that are different because this is the only way to get to something new, but afterwards we iterate multiple times, sometimes even a long time after the introduction of the original feature. For example, for the problem you are mentioning with the Playground appears 1.5 years after we introduced the Playground. The fact that they these interfaces are new breaks existing reflexes and the iterations that happen after are focused mostly on trying to figure out whether this is inconvenient because is new or because it is actually suboptimal. > > This discussion is one of those. We wanted to solve the most often appearing case in which we use Cmd+p as a way to preview quickly the result. Pasting the code in the existing playground is an edge case for Cmd+p, not the primary case. Because for me this is always the inverse. > After having proposed a solution for the primary problem, people raised the issue of the temporary results and then we created the idea of Enter and have comments. This might not be your use case, but others have it. I did not say the inverse. >> how you should work... and at the end I the end-user has to adapt. >> Look at the Spotter discussions: you looked for the graal and I was just telling to you that I cannot find >> simple information such as class refs! >> >> So what saddens me the most is that >> - you pretend to have end-user trying your tools but I have impression that they are not real power users >> or this is yourself and it means that you are never exposed to other people. >> I can still not use Spotter because the way I put my hand on my keyboard. So should change >> - 1 my hands >> - 2 my brain >> - 3 my keyboard >> - 4 do not use the tools? >> - funnily enough if I would not have complain aggressively then it looks like we would have the same than before. > This is incorrect. If you would not complain aggressively, we would simply have a smoother conversation about solutions. if you see it like that then not need to explain to me that this is me that explain to people like esteban and guillermo that there was a hidden triangle in Spotter. But believe what you want. >> Your flow is not mine and I go faster my way but your tools force me to get slow. >> I do not have the time to produce a video but I would even if it would give a bad press to Pharo. >> I will do a presentation in the rmod team. Because people do not watch themselves why acting. > Let’s do a remote session and I watch you do things. This week I am available this Thursday morning or Friday after 11. I'm not available. Going to hard rock concert with teenagers. >> Good tools empower the users not constraint them. >> >> GTTools feel often like an overengineer guitar that would have hampered Jimmy Hendrix to do crazy solos. > Could well be. > > Doru > > > >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 5, 2016, at 10:20 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> I would like to know if there is a setting to remove the "" when printing the result of an expression. >>>> >>>> I know that playground has been thought to help me, but today I watched myself removing the comments >>>> >>>> code so often that I would like to get a setting because such wrapping of results is really boring for me. >>>> >>>> I'm spending my time removing them and I start to wonder why they are any useful. >>>> >>>> I would help me to write fast tests for example in the debugger. >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> www.feenk.com >>> >>> "What we can governs what we wish." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "Obvious things are difficult to teach." > > > > > > |
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
You remember certainly this book that said that most users
are looking at ui the same way that we see a bear dansing in tutu while it should be a classical dancer with grace. So users adapt to things even if some of them are hurting them. I don't. I do not like that I have to fight to get things that were totally trivial to do. Tools should adapt and help not the inverse. Stef Le 7/6/16 à 23:37, Tudor Girba a écrit : > Hi Stef, > > Thanks for the feedback. Sorry for the long email, but I you raised several issues and I thought it is worth addressing them. > > The feature we are talking about came into being after several suggestions on this mailing list (and quite some long discussions) that had the scenario of keeping track of several executions. In the first version of the Playground it was not possible to paste directly in the playground. We did not impose anything, it was the contrary. > > From your email I see that you would rather prefer the variant of embedding the text as is after pressing Enter. Is this correct? > > Here is another variant: > - Cmd+p > - Cmd+v ==> paste the string directly in the editor without comments > > I think this would fit well. > > What do you think? > > > More replies about Spotter inline. > > >> On Jun 7, 2016, at 8:09 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >> >> Le 5/6/16 à 23:00, Tudor Girba a écrit : >>> Hi Stef, >>> >>> The quotes appear only when you add the result in the playground. >> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>> The typical use case for this is to keep track of several results. >> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>> In this situation you do not want to modify the code to not affect the highlighting and this is why it gets in a comment. >> This is fun because I never ever needed it. But this is probably what everybody else is doing that since this is the default. >> I just write simple code and tests. Indeed I'm not that smart. >> >> But your tools only embedd your scenario and let the other users forced to adapt. >> >> Well you do not want but I do. >> I spent my evening removing quotes while writing tests. >> >> What I hate with the GTTools is that you want to teach me how I should work. Sorry but good tools do not do that. >> Good tools empower the users and not constraint them. >> >> I work a lot faster when I do not have to remove the wonderful comments or when I have to copy and paste. >> This commenting is breaking the flow of efficient people. May be GT team do not work write tests in the >> debugger but I do most of the time and I'm forced by the environment to remove quotes all over the places. >>> If you want to copy the content without quotes, you can do: >>> Cmd+p -> popup >>> Cmd+c -> selects the current line and copies the text >>> Esc >>> Cmd+v >> Sorry but I do not want. >> I just want to print and modify directly. >> 7 keystrokes vs 2 >>> Perhaps we can add another keybinding like Shift+Enter for adding the text without quotes. >> And why not the inverse. >> By default printing is printing and if you want to do something else then you have a special binding. >> >> Now I'm upset with this general attitude (Oh I will teach how you can be a nice user) that I will turn them off >> or go and hack my own settings. Still I'm amazingly sad about this state of affair. >> All these story about GT is hurting me because of this attitude: we are so smart and we thought a lot and we will teach you > You are mistaken here. We propose solutions that are different because this is the only way to get to something new, but afterwards we iterate multiple times, sometimes even a long time after the introduction of the original feature. For example, for the problem you are mentioning with the Playground appears 1.5 years after we introduced the Playground. The fact that they these interfaces are new breaks existing reflexes and the iterations that happen after are focused mostly on trying to figure out whether this is inconvenient because is new or because it is actually suboptimal. > > This discussion is one of those. We wanted to solve the most often appearing case in which we use Cmd+p as a way to preview quickly the result. Pasting the code in the existing playground is an edge case for Cmd+p, not the primary case. After having proposed a solution for the primary problem, people raised the issue of the temporary results and then we created the idea of Enter and have comments. This might not be your use case, but others have it. > > >> how you should work... and at the end I the end-user has to adapt. >> Look at the Spotter discussions: you looked for the graal and I was just telling to you that I cannot find >> simple information such as class refs! >> >> So what saddens me the most is that >> - you pretend to have end-user trying your tools but I have impression that they are not real power users >> or this is yourself and it means that you are never exposed to other people. >> I can still not use Spotter because the way I put my hand on my keyboard. So should change >> - 1 my hands >> - 2 my brain >> - 3 my keyboard >> - 4 do not use the tools? >> - funnily enough if I would not have complain aggressively then it looks like we would have the same than before. > This is incorrect. If you would not complain aggressively, we would simply have a smoother conversation about solutions. > > >> Your flow is not mine and I go faster my way but your tools force me to get slow. >> I do not have the time to produce a video but I would even if it would give a bad press to Pharo. >> I will do a presentation in the rmod team. Because people do not watch themselves why acting. > Let’s do a remote session and I watch you do things. This week I am available this Thursday morning or Friday after 11. > > >> Good tools empower the users not constraint them. >> >> GTTools feel often like an overengineer guitar that would have hampered Jimmy Hendrix to do crazy solos. > Could well be. > > Doru > > > >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 5, 2016, at 10:20 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> I would like to know if there is a setting to remove the "" when printing the result of an expression. >>>> >>>> I know that playground has been thought to help me, but today I watched myself removing the comments >>>> >>>> code so often that I would like to get a setting because such wrapping of results is really boring for me. >>>> >>>> I'm spending my time removing them and I start to wonder why they are any useful. >>>> >>>> I would help me to write fast tests for example in the debugger. >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> www.feenk.com >>> >>> "What we can governs what we wish." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "Obvious things are difficult to teach." > > > > > > |
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
"La perfection n'est atteinte non pas quand il n'y a plus rien a ajouter
mais plus rien a enlever" Saint Exupery. I'm curious to see the results of the data you collected about spotter usage. Because we have around 50 processors and may be we need more? Who knows. Personnally I succeeded to use find a class find a method But I'm stupid and I cannot adapt. And probably the fact that I cannot access Spotter without hurting my hand it is also probably why I do not try more. Stef Le 7/6/16 à 23:37, Tudor Girba a écrit : > Hi Stef, > > Thanks for the feedback. Sorry for the long email, but I you raised several issues and I thought it is worth addressing them. > > The feature we are talking about came into being after several suggestions on this mailing list (and quite some long discussions) that had the scenario of keeping track of several executions. In the first version of the Playground it was not possible to paste directly in the playground. We did not impose anything, it was the contrary. > > From your email I see that you would rather prefer the variant of embedding the text as is after pressing Enter. Is this correct? > > Here is another variant: > - Cmd+p > - Cmd+v ==> paste the string directly in the editor without comments > > I think this would fit well. > > What do you think? > > > More replies about Spotter inline. > > >> On Jun 7, 2016, at 8:09 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >> >> Le 5/6/16 à 23:00, Tudor Girba a écrit : >>> Hi Stef, >>> >>> The quotes appear only when you add the result in the playground. >> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>> The typical use case for this is to keep track of several results. >> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>> In this situation you do not want to modify the code to not affect the highlighting and this is why it gets in a comment. >> This is fun because I never ever needed it. But this is probably what everybody else is doing that since this is the default. >> I just write simple code and tests. Indeed I'm not that smart. >> >> But your tools only embedd your scenario and let the other users forced to adapt. >> >> Well you do not want but I do. >> I spent my evening removing quotes while writing tests. >> >> What I hate with the GTTools is that you want to teach me how I should work. Sorry but good tools do not do that. >> Good tools empower the users and not constraint them. >> >> I work a lot faster when I do not have to remove the wonderful comments or when I have to copy and paste. >> This commenting is breaking the flow of efficient people. May be GT team do not work write tests in the >> debugger but I do most of the time and I'm forced by the environment to remove quotes all over the places. >>> If you want to copy the content without quotes, you can do: >>> Cmd+p -> popup >>> Cmd+c -> selects the current line and copies the text >>> Esc >>> Cmd+v >> Sorry but I do not want. >> I just want to print and modify directly. >> 7 keystrokes vs 2 >>> Perhaps we can add another keybinding like Shift+Enter for adding the text without quotes. >> And why not the inverse. >> By default printing is printing and if you want to do something else then you have a special binding. >> >> Now I'm upset with this general attitude (Oh I will teach how you can be a nice user) that I will turn them off >> or go and hack my own settings. Still I'm amazingly sad about this state of affair. >> All these story about GT is hurting me because of this attitude: we are so smart and we thought a lot and we will teach you > You are mistaken here. We propose solutions that are different because this is the only way to get to something new, but afterwards we iterate multiple times, sometimes even a long time after the introduction of the original feature. For example, for the problem you are mentioning with the Playground appears 1.5 years after we introduced the Playground. The fact that they these interfaces are new breaks existing reflexes and the iterations that happen after are focused mostly on trying to figure out whether this is inconvenient because is new or because it is actually suboptimal. > > This discussion is one of those. We wanted to solve the most often appearing case in which we use Cmd+p as a way to preview quickly the result. Pasting the code in the existing playground is an edge case for Cmd+p, not the primary case. After having proposed a solution for the primary problem, people raised the issue of the temporary results and then we created the idea of Enter and have comments. This might not be your use case, but others have it. > > >> how you should work... and at the end I the end-user has to adapt. >> Look at the Spotter discussions: you looked for the graal and I was just telling to you that I cannot find >> simple information such as class refs! >> >> So what saddens me the most is that >> - you pretend to have end-user trying your tools but I have impression that they are not real power users >> or this is yourself and it means that you are never exposed to other people. >> I can still not use Spotter because the way I put my hand on my keyboard. So should change >> - 1 my hands >> - 2 my brain >> - 3 my keyboard >> - 4 do not use the tools? >> - funnily enough if I would not have complain aggressively then it looks like we would have the same than before. > This is incorrect. If you would not complain aggressively, we would simply have a smoother conversation about solutions. > > >> Your flow is not mine and I go faster my way but your tools force me to get slow. >> I do not have the time to produce a video but I would even if it would give a bad press to Pharo. >> I will do a presentation in the rmod team. Because people do not watch themselves why acting. > Let’s do a remote session and I watch you do things. This week I am available this Thursday morning or Friday after 11. > > >> Good tools empower the users not constraint them. >> >> GTTools feel often like an overengineer guitar that would have hampered Jimmy Hendrix to do crazy solos. > Could well be. > > Doru > > > >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 5, 2016, at 10:20 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> I would like to know if there is a setting to remove the "" when printing the result of an expression. >>>> >>>> I know that playground has been thought to help me, but today I watched myself removing the comments >>>> >>>> code so often that I would like to get a setting because such wrapping of results is really boring for me. >>>> >>>> I'm spending my time removing them and I start to wonder why they are any useful. >>>> >>>> I would help me to write fast tests for example in the debugger. >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> www.feenk.com >>> >>> "What we can governs what we wish." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "Obvious things are difficult to teach." > > > > > > |
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Le 8/6/16 à 09:04, stepharo a écrit :
> This is incorrect. If you would not complain aggressively, we would > simply have a smoother conversation about solutions. My final point: Aggressivity is often the result of not being heard. So now you can argue that you listen :) But I decided that I will not bother people about such little problems anymore. If people believe that I'm trolling then it is the time to do something else for me. And this is what I will do. Stef |
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In reply to this post by stepharo
yeah, shortcut has to be configurable, for people with big hands :) |
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2
On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi, > >> On Jun 8, 2016, at 2:04 AM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 5:39 AM, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Hi Sven, >>> >>> If I understand correctly, Stef talks about the case of building tests in the debugger. There he tries an expression and then wants to capture the result of the expression as an assertion in the code so he wants to paste the result directly. It is a different scenario than the one of capturing results that we store as comments for further reference. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 7, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> The #printString of most objects is not valid Pharo syntax, it makes sense to put those into comments, so that the overall syntax of the workspace/playground is maintained and syntax highlighting can operate normally. >> >> This might be too much a corner case, but I wonder... >> If the domain object provided a sufficiently distinguishing >> printString, then a shortcut that appended the CTRL-P result.... >> printString = 'aDomainObject(''identifer’') > > I cannot quite picture what you mean. Could you elaborate. It sounds intriguing? Simple example (perhaps poor because its integers) is... 3+4 select it, <ctrl-p> <ctrl-enter> ==> 3 +4 printString = '7'. more involved... actually nothing like a concrete example to flesh out ideas. The generated string should include "printString equals:" rather than "printString =" , or even "equalsPrintString" Object subclass: #Person instanceVariableNames: 'name age' classVariableNames: '' package: 'AAAAA' Person>>named: aString age: anInteger name := aString. age := anInteger Person>>printOn: aStream super printOn: aStream. aStream nextPut: $( ; nextPutAll: name; nextPut: $). PersonTest>>setUp people := { Person new named: 'John' age: 5). Person new named: 'Peter' age: 7) } PersonTest>>testAge self assert: (people detect: [ :p | p age = 5 ]) <ctrl-p><ctrl-enter> ==> equalsPrintString: 'a Person(John)'. Maybe using the printString is a bit fragile. If it changes you need to edit all the tests. Although you could be able to just use <ctrl-p><ctrl-enter> again and visually check the new and old results. Maybe some other magic could happen like look up the returned value in instance variables and insert a code reference <ctrl-p><ctrl-enter> ==> equals: (People at: 1) cheers -ben > >> to the selected text might provide an interesting workflow for >> developing tests in the debugger. >> Maybe it could be CTRL-P + CTRL-T (for test) ? > > I proposed Cmd+p Cmd+v (from paste). > > Cheers, > Doru > > >> A video demo of such might provide a good example of programming in an >> immersive environment. What other environment could do this? >> cheers -ben >> >> >> >> >> >>>> >>>> A result printed as a comment is also easy to select (by double-clicking next to the $" on the inside). >>>> >>>> All this makes sense for literal programming (assuming that is what you are after). >>>> >>>> What is the use case for not doing it like that ? Why do you want the comments gone ? >>>> >>>>> On 07 Jun 2016, at 13:03, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Le 5/6/16 à 23:00, Tudor Girba a écrit : >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Stef, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The quotes appear only when you add the result in the playground. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The typical use case for this is to keep track of several results. >>>>>> >>>>>> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In this situation you do not want to modify the code to not affect the >>>>>>> highlighting and this is why it gets in a comment. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is fun because I never ever needed it. But this is probably what >>>>>> everybody else is doing that since this is the default. >>>>>> I just write simple code and tests. Indeed I'm not that smart. >>>>>> >>>>>> But your tools only embedd your scenario and let the other users forced to >>>>>> adapt. >>>>>> >>>>>> Well you do not want but I do. >>>>>> I spent my evening removing quotes while writing tests. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I hate with the GTTools is that you want to teach me how I should work. >>>>>> Sorry but good tools do not do that. >>>>>> Good tools empower the users and not constraint them. >>>>>> >>>>>> I work a lot faster when I do not have to remove the wonderful comments or >>>>>> when I have to copy and paste. >>>>>> This commenting is breaking the flow of efficient people. May be GT team do >>>>>> not work write tests in the >>>>>> debugger but I do most of the time and I'm forced by the environment to >>>>>> remove quotes all over the places. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you want to copy the content without quotes, you can do: >>>>>>> Cmd+p -> popup >>>>>>> Cmd+c -> selects the current line and copies the text >>>>>>> Esc >>>>>>> Cmd+v >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry but I do not want. >>>>>> I just want to print and modify directly. >>>>>> 7 keystrokes vs 2 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps we can add another keybinding like Shift+Enter for adding the text >>>>>>> without quotes. >>>>> >>>>> I just had a play with this, and another option might be <ctrl-enter>, >>>>> since the <ctrl> key is still selection from doing <ctrl-P> so there >>>>> is not much difference in hand movements between <enter> and >>>>> <ctrl-enter> >>>>> >>>>> cheers -ben >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And why not the inverse. >>>>>> By default printing is printing and if you want to do something else then >>>>>> you have a special binding. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Now I'm upset with this general attitude (Oh I will teach how you can be a >>>>>> nice user) that I will turn them off >>>>>> or go and hack my own settings. Still I'm amazingly sad about this state of >>>>>> affair. >>>>>> All these story about GT is hurting me because of this attitude: we are so >>>>>> smart and we thought a lot and we will teach you >>>>>> how you should work... and at the end I the end-user has to adapt. >>>>>> Look at the Spotter discussions: you looked for the graal and I was just >>>>>> telling to you that I cannot find >>>>>> simple information such as class refs! >>>>>> >>>>>> So what saddens me the most is that >>>>>> - you pretend to have end-user trying your tools but I have impression >>>>>> that they are not real power users >>>>>> or this is yourself and it means that you are never exposed to other >>>>>> people. >>>>>> I can still not use Spotter because the way I put my hand on my >>>>>> keyboard. So should change >>>>>> - 1 my hands >>>>>> - 2 my brain >>>>>> - 3 my keyboard >>>>>> - 4 do not use the tools? >>>>>> - funnily enough if I would not have complain aggressively then it looks >>>>>> like we would have the same than before. >>>>>> >>>>>> Your flow is not mine and I go faster my way but your tools force me to get >>>>>> slow. >>>>>> I do not have the time to produce a video but I would even if it would give >>>>>> a bad press to Pharo. >>>>>> I will do a presentation in the rmod team. Because people do not watch >>>>>> themselves why acting. >>>>>> >>>>>> Good tools empower the users not constraint them. >>>>>> >>>>>> GTTools feel often like an overengineer guitar that would have hampered >>>>>> Jimmy Hendrix to do crazy solos. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Doru >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 5, 2016, at 10:20 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would like to know if there is a setting to remove the "" when printing >>>>>>>> the result of an expression. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I know that playground has been thought to help me, but today I watched >>>>>>>> myself removing the comments >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> code so often that I would like to get a setting because such wrapping of >>>>>>>> results is really boring for me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm spending my time removing them and I start to wonder why they are any >>>>>>>> useful. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would help me to write fast tests for example in the debugger. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>>> www.feenk.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "What we can governs what we wish." >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> www.feenk.com >>> >>> "It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it." >>> >>> >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair, > you will end up with a messy haircut." > > |
Re: Playground and text evaluation printing result default.
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Hi,
Thanks. Interesting. I do not yet see it yet, but there is something intriguing about it. It would be interesting to play with this in more details. Cheers, Tudor > On Jun 8, 2016, at 12:24 PM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 2:01 PM, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Hi, >> >>> On Jun 8, 2016, at 2:04 AM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 5:39 AM, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> Hi Sven, >>>> >>>> If I understand correctly, Stef talks about the case of building tests in the debugger. There he tries an expression and then wants to capture the result of the expression as an assertion in the code so he wants to paste the result directly. It is a different scenario than the one of capturing results that we store as comments for further reference. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 7, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The #printString of most objects is not valid Pharo syntax, it makes sense to put those into comments, so that the overall syntax of the workspace/playground is maintained and syntax highlighting can operate normally. >>> >>> This might be too much a corner case, but I wonder... >>> If the domain object provided a sufficiently distinguishing >>> printString, then a shortcut that appended the CTRL-P result.... >>> printString = 'aDomainObject(''identifer’') >> >> I cannot quite picture what you mean. Could you elaborate. It sounds intriguing? > > Simple example (perhaps poor because its integers) is... > 3+4 > select it, <ctrl-p> <ctrl-enter> > ==> > 3 +4 printString = '7'. > > more involved... actually nothing like a concrete example to flesh out > ideas. The generated string should include "printString equals:" > rather than "printString =" , or even "equalsPrintString" > > Object subclass: #Person > instanceVariableNames: 'name age' > classVariableNames: '' > package: 'AAAAA' > > Person>>named: aString age: anInteger > name := aString. > age := anInteger > > Person>>printOn: aStream > super printOn: aStream. > aStream > nextPut: $( ; > nextPutAll: name; > nextPut: $). > > PersonTest>>setUp > people := { > Person new named: 'John' age: 5). > Person new named: 'Peter' age: 7) } > > PersonTest>>testAge > self assert: (people detect: [ :p | p age = 5 ]) > <ctrl-p><ctrl-enter> ==> equalsPrintString: 'a Person(John)'. > > Maybe using the printString is a bit fragile. If it changes you need > to edit all the tests. Although you could be able to just use > <ctrl-p><ctrl-enter> again and visually check the new and old results. > > Maybe some other magic could happen like look up the returned value in > instance variables and insert a code reference > <ctrl-p><ctrl-enter> ==> equals: (People at: 1) > > cheers -ben > >> >>> to the selected text might provide an interesting workflow for >>> developing tests in the debugger. >>> Maybe it could be CTRL-P + CTRL-T (for test) ? >> >> I proposed Cmd+p Cmd+v (from paste). >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >>> A video demo of such might provide a good example of programming in an >>> immersive environment. What other environment could do this? >>> cheers -ben >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> A result printed as a comment is also easy to select (by double-clicking next to the $" on the inside). >>>>> >>>>> All this makes sense for literal programming (assuming that is what you are after). >>>>> >>>>> What is the use case for not doing it like that ? Why do you want the comments gone ? >>>>> >>>>>> On 07 Jun 2016, at 13:03, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Le 5/6/16 à 23:00, Tudor Girba a écrit : >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Stef, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The quotes appear only when you add the result in the playground. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The typical use case for this is to keep track of several results. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No need to explain I'm not idiot and I know it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In this situation you do not want to modify the code to not affect the >>>>>>>> highlighting and this is why it gets in a comment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is fun because I never ever needed it. But this is probably what >>>>>>> everybody else is doing that since this is the default. >>>>>>> I just write simple code and tests. Indeed I'm not that smart. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But your tools only embedd your scenario and let the other users forced to >>>>>>> adapt. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well you do not want but I do. >>>>>>> I spent my evening removing quotes while writing tests. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I hate with the GTTools is that you want to teach me how I should work. >>>>>>> Sorry but good tools do not do that. >>>>>>> Good tools empower the users and not constraint them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I work a lot faster when I do not have to remove the wonderful comments or >>>>>>> when I have to copy and paste. >>>>>>> This commenting is breaking the flow of efficient people. May be GT team do >>>>>>> not work write tests in the >>>>>>> debugger but I do most of the time and I'm forced by the environment to >>>>>>> remove quotes all over the places. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you want to copy the content without quotes, you can do: >>>>>>>> Cmd+p -> popup >>>>>>>> Cmd+c -> selects the current line and copies the text >>>>>>>> Esc >>>>>>>> Cmd+v >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry but I do not want. >>>>>>> I just want to print and modify directly. >>>>>>> 7 keystrokes vs 2 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps we can add another keybinding like Shift+Enter for adding the text >>>>>>>> without quotes. >>>>>> >>>>>> I just had a play with this, and another option might be <ctrl-enter>, >>>>>> since the <ctrl> key is still selection from doing <ctrl-P> so there >>>>>> is not much difference in hand movements between <enter> and >>>>>> <ctrl-enter> >>>>>> >>>>>> cheers -ben >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And why not the inverse. >>>>>>> By default printing is printing and if you want to do something else then >>>>>>> you have a special binding. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Now I'm upset with this general attitude (Oh I will teach how you can be a >>>>>>> nice user) that I will turn them off >>>>>>> or go and hack my own settings. Still I'm amazingly sad about this state of >>>>>>> affair. >>>>>>> All these story about GT is hurting me because of this attitude: we are so >>>>>>> smart and we thought a lot and we will teach you >>>>>>> how you should work... and at the end I the end-user has to adapt. >>>>>>> Look at the Spotter discussions: you looked for the graal and I was just >>>>>>> telling to you that I cannot find >>>>>>> simple information such as class refs! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So what saddens me the most is that >>>>>>> - you pretend to have end-user trying your tools but I have impression >>>>>>> that they are not real power users >>>>>>> or this is yourself and it means that you are never exposed to other >>>>>>> people. >>>>>>> I can still not use Spotter because the way I put my hand on my >>>>>>> keyboard. So should change >>>>>>> - 1 my hands >>>>>>> - 2 my brain >>>>>>> - 3 my keyboard >>>>>>> - 4 do not use the tools? >>>>>>> - funnily enough if I would not have complain aggressively then it looks >>>>>>> like we would have the same than before. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your flow is not mine and I go faster my way but your tools force me to get >>>>>>> slow. >>>>>>> I do not have the time to produce a video but I would even if it would give >>>>>>> a bad press to Pharo. >>>>>>> I will do a presentation in the rmod team. Because people do not watch >>>>>>> themselves why acting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good tools empower the users not constraint them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> GTTools feel often like an overengineer guitar that would have hampered >>>>>>> Jimmy Hendrix to do crazy solos. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Doru >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 5, 2016, at 10:20 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would like to know if there is a setting to remove the "" when printing >>>>>>>>> the result of an expression. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know that playground has been thought to help me, but today I watched >>>>>>>>> myself removing the comments >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> code so often that I would like to get a setting because such wrapping of >>>>>>>>> results is really boring for me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm spending my time removing them and I start to wonder why they are any >>>>>>>>> useful. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would help me to write fast tests for example in the debugger. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>>>> www.feenk.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "What we can governs what we wish." >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> www.feenk.com >>>> >>>> "It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it." >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> www.feenk.com >> >> "If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair, >> you will end up with a messy haircut." -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with." |
Re: Playground and text evaluation printing result default.
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In reply to this post by EstebanLM
Yes, we already agreed on that both for the debugger and for Spotter. We just did not get the chance to do it yet.
Doru > On Jun 8, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote: > > >> On 08 Jun 2016, at 09:04, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> the fact that I cannot access Spotter without hurting my hand it is also probably why I do not try more. > > yeah, shortcut has to be configurable, for people with big hands :) > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're fighting is the right one." |
Re: Playground and text evaluation printing result default.
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2016-06-08 19:11 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>: Yes, we already agreed on that both for the debugger and for Spotter. We just did not get the chance to do it yet. Hey Doru, about your report https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18455 Spotter shortcuts should be externalized as settings Please don't do this just for spotter. We really need a general solution for all tools shortcuts. I am alread about to clean up the shortcut definitions. In the tools and the PharoShortcuts class. But we still need a way to really define this in a customizable way. I already wrote about this and asked (ML or fogbugz, I don't remember). The current shortcut definitions (with pragmas for example). Can be browsed and in the Keymap browser (that is good), but they can not be changed of course, they are defined in the source. And, the current keymap definitions (KMKEyCombination) need a way to be able to read and write as a setting, that currently does not work (as I wrote). My proposition was, to define some kind of "Named-Keyaction" or "Named-Action", for example CopySelectionAction (name = CopySelection, shortcut Ctrl+C), it would act as a KMKeyCombination, but its own shortcut (Ctrl+C) would be configurable. Now, in PharoShortcuts instead of PharoShortcuts >>#copySelectionShortcut ^ $c meta we define PharoShortcuts >>#copySelectionShortcut ^ CopySelectionAction withShortcut: $c meta (maybe on unique Instance of CopySelectionAction, or one per category) And the keymap browser, or the settings browser could list these actions and provide a way to reset the keycombination: CopySelectionAction - | type some keycombination here | The current way with the PharoShortcuts class and how the keys are binded to the tools don't really work for customizable shortcut definitions (or keymaps) or I just don't see it. nicolai
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Hi nicolai Indeed we need on way to define "menuItem action" I do not know if it should be bound to shortcut but it should
have a shortcut. I saw that Glamour has one way, the core other ways and probably
Spec a third one. So this is really confusing. With guille we discussed a while ago about a hierarchy of command id description flyhelp action shortcut. So probably the shortcut should be virtual so that we can bind
the one we want system wide. I would love to have Ctrle Ctrla.... ") stef Le 8/6/16 à 19:35, Nicolai Hess a
écrit :
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In reply to this post by EstebanLM
Le 8/6/16 à 11:33, Esteban Lorenzano a
écrit :
and big mouth.... and strong teeth :) Stef |
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