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Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

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Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

sourav roy


Hi All,

I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk.

I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD

language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it.


I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of

one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.

Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk.

Thanks&Regards,

Sourav Roy



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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Noury Bouraqadi-2
HI Sourav,

Smalltalk is unfortunately not main stream, one reason is that there were no free version until the end of the 90's.
Still there are companies using it some of them since the 80's and doing only Smalltalk.
You can find a list here :
http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Smaltalk/Companies

You can meet some of them at Smalltalk events such as the ESUG yearly conference (the 19th edition will take place next august in UK), Smalltalks conf in argentina (fall) or Smalltalk Solution in the US (last march). At such conferences, one can see the energy of the community and all great innovations that are made possible by using Smalltalk.

You can have a list of Smalltalk success stories in business on sites such as :
-http://www.pharo-project.org/about/success-stories
-http://www.stic.st/successes/ (STIC is  the Smalltalk Industry Council).

Best,
Noury
http://car.mines-douai.fr/noury
--
-6th National Conference on
“Control Architecture of Robots”
24-25 may 2011, Grenoble area, France
http://car2011.inrialpes.fr/

-19th ESUG International Smalltalk Conference
22-26 August 2011, Edinburgh, UK
http://www.esug.org/Conferences/2011
On 5 mai 2011, at 07:38, sourav roy wrote:

>
> Hi All,
>
> I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk.
>
> I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD
>
> language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it.
>
>
> I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of
>
> one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.
>
> Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk.
>
> Thanks&Regards,
>
> Sourav Roy
>
>
>
> Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!



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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Toon Verwaest-2
In reply to this post by sourav roy
Hi,

I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.

This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)

As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better.

Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)

cheers,
Toon

On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:


Hi All,

I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk.

I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD

language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it.


I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of

one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.

Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk.

Thanks&Regards,

Sourav Roy




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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.
>
> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)
>
> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better.
>
> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)
>
> cheers,
> Toon

Very well written, Toon!

And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know it and get it, you will never want to go back.

You have been warned.

Sven


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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Peter Hugosson-Miller
On 5 maj 2011, at 10:07, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.
>>
>> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)
>>
>> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better.
>>
>> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)
>>
>> cheers,
>> Toon
>
> Very well written, Toon!
>
> And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know it and get it, you will never want to go back.

This is all too true! :-/

--
Cheers,
Peter

>
> You have been warned.
>
> Sven
>
>

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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Toon Verwaest-2
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> Very well written, Toon!
>
Thanks!
> And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know it and get it, you will never want to go back.
>
To say it in the words of people more famous than me:

"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is
not worth knowing"
     -- Alan Perlis

For me, Java and .NET have never really been worth knowing.

cheers,
Toon

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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Johan Brichau-2
In reply to this post by Toon Verwaest-2
That is a superb response, Toon!
I could not agree more.

Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass productivity used by small technology startups ;-)

Johan

On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.
>
> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)
>
> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better.
>
> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)
>
> cheers,
> Toon
>
> On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk.
>>
>> I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD
>>
>> language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it.
>>
>>
>> I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of
>>
>> one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.
>>
>> Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk.
>>
>> Thanks&Regards,
>>
>> Sourav Roy
>>
>>
>>
>> Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!
>


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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

carlo.t
Hi

While I agree with everyone's sentiments I think that practically If I ware starting my career off again I would still go into Java or .NET.

To get a job as a Smalltalk developer is difficult simply because they are so scarce. Yes technically Smalltalk has design and philosophical merits but, for someone starting their career, a more mainstream language would be best. It is still too difficult to make Smalltalk do enterprise scale integration and there is a serious lack of libraries; something that the Java and .NET (even Ruby) world does not suffer from. i'm not saying That Smalltalk can't do these things but rather that it is more difficult to integrate with the outside world; it's ecosystem is small compared to the J2EE ecosystem.

My advice would be to start off with Java or .NET and then when you've gained practical development experience (+-5 years) decide where you want to take your career. During this time you should be looking at other languages and practices, such as Smalltalk, software methodologies, DDD, FP etc, and learn from them to make you a better software engineer.
A career in development is so much more than simply the programming language.

BTW I'm still regretting not taking a Smalltalk position here in South Africa when I had the chance :) Maybe I will still...
Cheers
Carlo

On 05 May 2011, at 10:57 AM, Johan Brichau wrote:

That is a superb response, Toon!
I could not agree more.

Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass productivity used by small technology startups ;-)

Johan

On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.
>
> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)
>
> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better.
>
> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)
>
> cheers,
> Toon
>
> On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk.
>>
>> I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD
>>
>> language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it.
>>
>>
>> I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of
>>
>> one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.
>>
>> Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk.
>>
>> Thanks&Regards,
>>
>> Sourav Roy
>>
>>
>>
>> Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!
>




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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Olivier Auverlot
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Le 05/05/11 10:07, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :
> And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know it and get it, you will never want to go back

+1

Yes, it's true. I discovered Smalltalk since six month and I'm digitally
addicted ;-)

Before, I thought that Smalltalk was a dinosaur but I was wrong. There
are many projects, the community is really cool and the language is very
impressive.

Olivier
www.auverlot.fr

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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Tudor Girba
In reply to this post by Johan Brichau-2
Hi,

When people are asking me why I work in Smalltalk (especially after Moose presentations), I answer:
"It's great to have a competitive advantage that is hidden in plain sight :)"

Cheers,
Doru



On 5 May 2011, at 10:57, Johan Brichau wrote:

> That is a superb response, Toon!
> I could not agree more.
>
> Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass productivity used by small technology startups ;-)
>
> Johan
>
> On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.
>>
>> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)
>>
>> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better.
>>
>> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)
>>
>> cheers,
>> Toon
>>
>> On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk.
>>>
>>> I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD
>>>
>>> language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it.
>>>
>>>
>>> I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of
>>>
>>> one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.
>>>
>>> Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk.
>>>
>>> Thanks&Regards,
>>>
>>> Sourav Roy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!
>>
>
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"We can create beautiful models in a vacuum.
But, to get them effective we have to deal with the inconvenience of reality."


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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Nick
In reply to this post by sourav roy
Hi Sourav,

Laurent's Pharocasts (http://www.pharocasts.com) are a great place to start. Here are a couple to get you started:



Good luck and welcome

Nick

On 5 May 2011 11:12, sourav roy <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Toon,

I agree to what have you said but as i am a beginner to smalltalk i need lot of help to get a good grip over it and moreover unlike other mainstream languages there are not much documents or professional from which i can get some guidance about it. And i feel as Smalltalk is quite vast and different in structure from the other mail(with my two month experiance and i may be wrong), a beginner needs some proper guidance to get his hands over smalltalk. So, i just request you to kindly guide me to how should i get into smalltalk.

Thanks&Regards,

Sourav


---------- Original message ----------
From:"Toon Verwaest"< [hidden email] >
Date: 5 May 11 13:29:11
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry
To: [hidden email]

Hi,

I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.

This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more ev olved and flexible :)


As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better.

Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)

cheers,
Toon

On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:


Hi All,

I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk.

I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD

language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it.


I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of

one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.

Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk.

Thanks&Regards,

Sourav Roy







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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Henrik Sperre Johansen
In reply to this post by sourav roy
On 05.05.2011 12:12, sourav roy wrote:

>
> Hi Toon,
>
> I agree to what have you said but as i am a beginner to smalltalk i
> need lot of help to get a good grip over it and moreover unlike other
> mainstream languages there are not much documents or professional from
> which i can get some guidance about it. And i feel as Smalltalk is
> quite vast and different in structure from the other mail(with my two
> month experiance and i may be wrong), a beginner needs some proper
> guidance to get his hands over smalltalk. So, i just request you to
> kindly guide me to how should i get into smalltalk.
>
> Thanks&Regards,
>
> Sourav
>

The Daily podcasts James Robertson made while at Cincom are also
available, covering a wide range of topics (in VW ST at least), from
familiarizing with the tools, to use of specific libraries:
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/developer-community/tutorials/

He's also made (re)made alot of the introductory ones for multiple
different dialects:
http://jarober.com/blog/st4u.ssp

Cheers,
Henry

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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Mariano Martinez Peck
Books:  Pharo By Example: http://pharobyexample.org/
http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks.html

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Henrik Sperre Johansen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 05.05.2011 12:12, sourav roy wrote:

Hi Toon,

I agree to what have you said but as i am a beginner to smalltalk i need lot of help to get a good grip over it and moreover unlike other mainstream languages there are not much documents or professional from which i can get some guidance about it. And i feel as Smalltalk is quite vast and different in structure from the other mail(with my two month experiance and i may be wrong), a beginner needs some proper guidance to get his hands over smalltalk. So, i just request you to kindly guide me to how should i get into smalltalk.

Thanks&Regards,

Sourav


The Daily podcasts James Robertson made while at Cincom are also available, covering a wide range of topics (in VW ST at least), from familiarizing with the tools, to use of specific libraries:
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/developer-community/tutorials/

He's also made (re)made alot of the introductory ones for multiple different dialects:
http://jarober.com/blog/st4u.ssp

Cheers,
Henry




--
Mariano
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Toon Verwaest-2
In reply to this post by sourav roy
On 05/05/2011 12:12 PM, sourav roy wrote:

>
> Hi Toon,
>
> I agree to what have you said but as i am a beginner to smalltalk i
> need lot of help to get a good grip over it and moreover unlike other
> mainstream languages there are not much documents or professional from
> which i can get some guidance about it. And i feel as Smalltalk is
> quite vast and different in structure from the other mail(with my two
> month experiance and i may be wrong), a beginner needs some proper
> guidance to get his hands over smalltalk. So, i just request you to
> kindly guide me to how should i get into smalltalk.
>
> Thanks&Regards,
>
> Sourav
>
In addition to the links that were sent to you, this mailing list is a
good access point to get the information you might need.

I don't know where you are based exactly, but you might be able to find
people in your neighborhood that can help you out. If you live close to
Bern, CH; you are always welcome to pass by my office and I can give you
a tutoring session when you are stuck ;) Or you can just follow the
Smalltalk course at our university.

I'm pretty sure other people are open to helping you as well.

cheers,
Toon

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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Dave Mason-3
In reply to this post by sourav roy

On May 5, 2011, at 06:12, sourav roy wrote:

> I agree to what have you said but as i am a beginner to smalltalk i need lot of help to get a good grip over it

I was talking with one of my grad students yesterday, who was in a similar boat.

A big difference between Smalltalk and Java/C# (and worse, C++) is that it has a minimalist syntax.  If you have been programming in those syntaxy languages, you have grown to pattern-match that syntax to give you the structure of a method.  In Smalltalk, everything is a message send to some object (except assignment and return, and ignoring internal compiler optimizations) - so figuring out what is going on is a matter of following the message sends.

Another big difference is that classes are objects too, so 'self' could be a class or an instance.  This is a big advantage, but initially can make it harder to follow the message send trail.  Pay attention to whether you're looking at a class method or an instance method.

A third big difference is that the class hierarchy is much, much, richer, so messages are often sent to methods that are defined in super-classes or sub-classes of the method you're currently looking at.  This is particularly true for class methods, because there isn't any inheritance of class methods in the syntaxy languages.  You may find the hierarchy browser to be a good friend here.  Hierarchies in the syntaxy languages are usually <=3 deep.  In Smalltalk, 8-10 is not unusual.

Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based.  That means all the code is there for you to look at - you just have to find it!  Because the code (the ultimate documentation :-) is there, it has meant that documentation has been seen as less important. The Pharo community has been working to address that, both in books and in internal documentation (see the COTD postings)

> and moreover unlike other mainstream languages there are not much documents or professional from which i can get some guidance about it.

As others have pointed out, there actually is quite a bit... just not from Amazon.

> And i feel as Smalltalk is quite vast and different in structure from the other mail(with my two month experiance and i may be wrong), a beginner needs some proper guidance to get his hands over smalltalk. So, i just request you to kindly guide me to how should i get into smalltalk.

Hope this helps.

As others have said, Smalltalk is worth it - it will make you a better programmer.  As will several other languages, most of which you'll find discussed on the lambda-the-ultimate.org blog.

../Dave
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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Toon Verwaest-2
In reply to this post by carlo.t
I do agree in the current setup. That's why I'm working very hard on
changing this. I want Smalltalk to be completely compatible at all
levels with other languages, so that we can use their libraries rather
than having to rewrite them.

I'm working on it. Stay tuned ;)

On 05/05/2011 11:42 AM, Carlo wrote:

> Hi
>
> While I agree with everyone's sentiments I think that practically If I ware starting my career off again I would still go into Java or .NET.
>
> To get a job as a Smalltalk developer is difficult simply because they are so scarce. Yes technically Smalltalk has design and philosophical merits but, for someone starting their career, a more mainstream language would be best. It is still too difficult to make Smalltalk do enterprise scale integration and there is a serious lack of libraries; something that the Java and .NET (even Ruby) world does not suffer from. i'm not saying That Smalltalk can't do these things but rather that it is more difficult to integrate with the outside world; it's ecosystem is small compared to the J2EE ecosystem.
>
> My advice would be to start off with Java or .NET and then when you've gained practical development experience (+-5 years) decide where you want to take your career. During this time you should be looking at other languages and practices, such as Smalltalk, software methodologies, DDD, FP etc, and learn from them to make you a better software engineer.
> A career in development is so much more than simply the programming language.
>
> BTW I'm still regretting not taking a Smalltalk position here in South Africa when I had the chance :) Maybe I will still...
> Cheers
> Carlo
>
> On 05 May 2011, at 10:57 AM, Johan Brichau wrote:
>
> That is a superb response, Toon!
> I could not agree more.
>
> Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass productivity used by small technology startups ;-)
>
> Johan
>
> On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.
>>
>> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)
>>
>> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better.
>>
>> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)
>>
>> cheers,
>> Toon
>>
>> On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk.
>>>
>>> I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD
>>>
>>> language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it.
>>>
>>>
>>> I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of
>>>
>>> one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.
>>>
>>> Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk.
>>>
>>> Thanks&Regards,
>>>
>>> Sourav Roy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!
>
>
>


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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

SergeStinckwich

Le 5 mai 2011 à 20:09, Toon Verwaest <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> I do agree in the current setup. That's why I'm working very hard on changing this. I want Smalltalk to be completely compatible at all levels with other languages, so that we can use their libraries rather than having to rewrite them.
>
> I'm working on it. Stay tuned ;)
>

Whaooo !
Smalltalk as an universal syntax too access all the libraries. What a great perspective :-)


> On 05/05/2011 11:42 AM, Carlo wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> While I agree with everyone's sentiments I think that practically If I ware starting my career off again I would still go into Java or .NET.
>>
>> To get a job as a Smalltalk developer is difficult simply because they are so scarce. Yes technically Smalltalk has design and philosophical merits but, for someone starting their career, a more mainstream language would be best. It is still too difficult to make Smalltalk do enterprise scale integration and there is a serious lack of libraries; something that the Java and .NET (even Ruby) world does not suffer from. i'm not saying That Smalltalk can't do these things but rather that it is more difficult to integrate with the outside world; it's ecosystem is small compared to the J2EE ecosystem.
>>
>> My advice would be to start off with Java or .NET and then when you've gained practical development experience (+-5 years) decide where you want to take your career. During this time you should be looking at other languages and practices, such as Smalltalk, software methodologies, DDD, FP etc, and learn from them to make you a better software engineer.
>> A career in development is so much more than simply the programming language.
>>
>> BTW I'm still regretting not taking a Smalltalk position here in South Africa when I had the chance :) Maybe I will still...
>> Cheers
>> Carlo
>>
>> On 05 May 2011, at 10:57 AM, Johan Brichau wrote:
>>
>> That is a superb response, Toon!
>> I could not agree more.
>>
>> Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass productivity used by small technology startups ;-)
>>
>> Johan
>>
>> On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.
>>>
>>> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)
>>>
>>> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better.
>>>
>>> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> Toon
>>>
>>> On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk.
>>>>
>>>> I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD
>>>>
>>>> language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of
>>>>
>>>> one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.
>>>>
>>>> Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks&Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Sourav Roy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Cédrick Béler
In reply to this post by Dave Mason-3

Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based...

...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge benefit** of Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly debbuging... and also test driven development (real one [1]) where you can run incomplete code and code what's missing iteratively when you need it (Smalltalk is a live system, not only a language as somebody said lately).

Cédrick

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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Toon Verwaest-2
On 05/05/2011 05:26 PM, Cédrick Béler wrote:

>
>> Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based...
>
> ...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge
> benefit** of Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly
> debbuging... and also test driven development (real one [1]) where you
> can run incomplete code and code what's missing iteratively when you
> need it (Smalltalk is a live system, not only a language as somebody
> said lately).
>
> Cédrick
>
> [1] see in particular this webcast:
> http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html
Seriously ... these points in favor of the image are so m00t. Lets see
how it would work without an image:

I write a C application which I link to GCC. Now I run GDB on my
application, and while running I have the whole GCC compiler collection
at my disposal while running. While debugging (at some breakpoint) I
just let the GCC library compile some C code for me; I turn on the
executable flag and whooptidoo, I have a Smalltalk like debugger for C.

This is totally unrelated to having an image; it's just a great debugger
implementation. 2 completely different things. No reason why this
wouldn't work for C; except for the fact that they didn't do it yet
(those lazy bastards).

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Re: Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

Cédrick Béler

Le 5 mai 2011 à 17:32, Toon Verwaest a écrit :

> On 05/05/2011 05:26 PM, Cédrick Béler wrote:
>>
>>> Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based...
>>
>> ...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge benefit** of Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly debbuging... and also test driven development (real one [1]) where you can run incomplete code and code what's missing iteratively when you need it (Smalltalk is a live system, not only a language as somebody said lately).
>>
>> Cédrick
>>
>> [1] see in particular this webcast: http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html
> Seriously ... these points in favor of the image are so m00t. Lets see how it would work without an image:
>
> I write a C application which I link to GCC. Now I run GDB on my application, and while running I have the whole GCC compiler collection at my disposal while running. While debugging (at some breakpoint) I just let the GCC library compile some C code for me; I turn on the executable flag and whooptidoo, I have a Smalltalk like debugger for C.
>
> This is totally unrelated to having an image; it's just a great debugger implementation. 2 completely different things. No reason why this wouldn't work for C; except for the fact that they didn't do it yet (those lazy bastards).

ok, true :)

but, it's not only the debugger... getting senders, implementers, class that use it, methods that contains this word, ...
of course, this is doable with files (see eclipse *sigh*), but I prefer the snappy feeling of an image for that...




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