Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

> Igor
>
> We should face it: the FFI and Alien... are not that simple. Laurent spent time to try to cnnect to libs and it did
> not work. So we should really improve that aspect.
> Igor not everbody is able to code in assembler for nativeboost.
> So NB is probably a good insfrastructure but not ready for consumption for everybody.
> The interaction with C should be improved :)
>
> Stef
>
>
>> So, read about it. It doesn't bites. :)
>>
>>> As I said, I am totally unaware of the limitations of the system, but that
>>> it did what I need, and would have liked to do that from Pharo/Squeak. I
>>> know Dolphin has/had certain capabilities. But I don't prefer to use
>>> non-open source software if at all possible for development. I also am very
>>> preferential towards cross-platform software. Dolphin fails on all accounts.
>>> I would choose my Python/Pharo blend over Dolphin any day. I know it
>>> introduces some pain, but I am willing to accept the pain. I like tools that
>>> allow me to use them where ever I am and whatever I am doing.
>>>
>>> However, that said, when I look at the facilities Python offers for such
>>> capabilities it on appearances looks quite impressive.
>>>
>>> http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html
>>>
>>> """
>>> ctypes is a foreign function library for Python. It provides C compatible
>>> data types, and allows calling functions in DLLs or shared libraries. It can
>>> be used to wrap these libraries in pure Python.
>>>
>>> 15.18.1.1. Loading dynamic link libraries
>>>
>>> ctypes exports the cdll, and on Windows windll and oledll objects, for
>>> loading dynamic link libraries.
>>>
>>> You load libraries by accessing them as attributes of these objects. cdll
>>> loads libraries which export functions using the standard cdecl calling
>>> convention, while windll libraries call functions using the stdcall calling
>>> convention. oledll also uses the stdcall calling convention, and assumes the
>>> functions return a Windows HRESULT error code. The error code is used to
>>> automatically raise a WindowsError exception when the function call fails.
>>>
>>> Here are some examples for Windows. Note that msvcrt is the MS standard C
>>> library containing most standard C functions, and uses the cdecl calling
>>> convention:
>>>
>>>>>> from ctypes import *
>>>>>> print windll.kernel32 # doctest: +WINDOWS
>>> <WinDLL 'kernel32', handle ... at ...>
>>>>>> print cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS
>>> <CDLL 'msvcrt', handle ... at ...>
>>>>>> libc = cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS
>> So? Why do you think that you cannot do the same in Pharo?
>> Have you digested what is available before doing it in Python?
>>
>>
>>> """
>>>
>>> It has examples for windows and linux.
>>>
>> I feel that you are seriously under-informed.
>> Just try googling for:
>>
>> Squeak + FFI
>> Alien
>>
>> NativeBoost
>>
>> and just check what you can do using it:
>>
>> http://www.squeaksource.com/NBOpenGL/
>>
>> also check mail archives.
>>
>> Forgive me, but i really can't understand , why you can't just look
>> for what you need by yourself?
>> Are google.com banned by your ISP?
>>
>> For me this subject is interested in aspect, why this information
>> (while being available openly) didn't catch your
>> attention , so you using python instead.
>> (Okay, you might miss some functionality like being able to
>> automatically generate bindings to COM interfaces).
>> But again, i am sure that if you surf the net or ask right questions
>> on mailing list, you will probably discover that
>> there is already work being done in that direction.
>> And at last, if you feel that there is missing some key functionality
>> which you want, and you expect that it is also
>> could be useful to community, you can always implement it and share
>> with people (instead of using Python ;).
>> So, next who will come after you won't find himself in a desert with
>> couple of oasises few hundred miles away.
>>
>>> I didn't read it all as I am unqualified to assess its capabilities or
>>> limitations, nor do I presently need it as the win32 extensions do easily
>>> and well what I presently need to do.
>>>
>>> Hopefully it can inform us as to what is expected and doable in alternative
>>> languages which are dynamic like Smalltalk.
>>>
>>> Jimmie
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>>
>

>> Igor
>>
>> We should face it: the FFI and Alien... are not that simple. Laurent spent time to try to cnnect to libs and it did
>> not work. So we should really improve that aspect.
>> Igor not everbody is able to code in assembler for nativeboost.
>> So NB is probably a good insfrastructure but not ready for consumption for everybody.
>> The interaction with C should be improved :)
>>
>> Stef
>
> No, Stef, you didn't get it!
> It is documentation which needs to be improved in the first place. Documentation and its presentation. You know another reason why people love PHP? It is an ugly and awful language, but absolutely everything you ever want to do is covered in the docs, because people actually add examples and comments.
>
> And frankly, you book efforts are certainly interesting, but far from being as visible and as accessible as online docs of other languages. That's what Smalltalk sucks at, accessible online documentation. People do google when they have a problem. If it does not pop up on the first page, it does not exists.
>
> My impression of Smalltalk documentation is, it is non-existing. I usually do not even care to google, because it is unlikely that I find something. Instead I ask people. (And if you look at the traffic on the mailing list, thats not just me)
> That's a community issue, a problem of culture. I would never think about asking anyone if I have a problem with Python or PHP. I know everything is just a few google hits away.
>
> Ah, and tooling of course...
>
>
>
> --
> Stefan Marr
> Software Languages Lab
> Vrije Universiteit Brussel
> Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium
> http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr
> Phone: +32 2 629 2974
> Fax:   +32 2 629 3525
>
>

> On 06 May 2011, at 10:30, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
>> Igor
>>
>> We should face it: the FFI and Alien... are not that simple. Laurent spent time to try to cnnect to libs and it did
>> not work. So we should really improve that aspect.
>> Igor not everbody is able to code in assembler for nativeboost.
>> So NB is probably a good insfrastructure but not ready for consumption for everybody.
>> The interaction with C should be improved :)
>>
>> Stef
> No, Stef, you didn't get it!
> It is documentation which needs to be improved in the first place. Documentation and its presentation. You know another reason why people love PHP? It is an ugly and awful language, but absolutely everything you ever want to do is covered in the docs, because people actually add examples and comments.
>
> And frankly, you book efforts are certainly interesting, but far from being as visible and as accessible as online docs of other languages. That's what Smalltalk sucks at, accessible online documentation. People do google when they have a problem. If it does not pop up on the first page, it does not exists.
>
> My impression of Smalltalk documentation is, it is non-existing. I usually do not even care to google, because it is unlikely that I find something. Instead I ask people. (And if you look at the traffic on the mailing list, thats not just me)
> That's a community issue, a problem of culture. I would never think about asking anyone if I have a problem with Python or PHP. I know everything is just a few google hits away.
>
> Ah, and tooling of course...
>
>
>

>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system?
>>> Or a bug fix?
>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help.
>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :)
>
> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help?
>
>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website?
>
> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation.
> Now we can take the book contents and generate html
> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one.
> People are free to join and write one or two chapters.

>
>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any
>> part of the system?
>> Or a bug fix?
>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome
>> comments/examples help.
>
> No need to get into a cat-fight here :)
>
> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm
> unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with.
> Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but
> then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website?

>>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system?
>>>> Or a bug fix?
>>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help.
>>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :)
>>
>> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help?
>>
>>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website?
>>
>> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation.
>> Now we can take the book contents and generate html
>> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one.
>> People are free to join and write one or two chapters.
>
> Stéphane,
>
> Of course you are right: wining/complaining doesn't help, only action does. We need more people like Laurent focusing on documentation.
>
> I for one think that the well written, high quality books that exist (PBE, Seaside Book) are *very valuable*, much better than confusing wiki site (although these have their place as well).
>
> But the other point is: in most other popular languages, what current, young developers do, when they get an error that they don't understand is copy/paste the literal text in Google and in a surprisingly large number of cases you find some real answers in the first page.
>
> This is also related to popularity of course.
>
> Sven

> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Toon Verwaest<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any
>>> part of the system?
>>> Or a bug fix?
>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome
>>> comments/examples help.
>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :)
>>
>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm
>> unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with.
>> Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but
>> then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website?
> You are welcome to join us on the documentation effort:
> - Pharo by Example vol 1 and vol 2&  translations :
> https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates
> We are looking for more people to write chapters and translate them in
> other languages.
> - the collaboractive Pharo Book: http://book.pharo-project.org/
> - participate to COTC (Comment Of The Day Contest) organized by
> Laurent: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/CommentOfTheDayContest
> in order to comments Pharo classes.
>
> This is not enough for you ;-)
>
> Regards,

> So, read about it. It doesn't bites. :)
>
>> As I said, I am totally unaware of the limitations of the system, but
>> that
>> it did what I need, and would have liked to do that from Pharo/Squeak. I
>> know Dolphin has/had certain capabilities. But I don't prefer to use
>> non-open source software if at all possible for development. I also am
>> very
>> preferential towards cross-platform software. Dolphin fails on all
>> accounts.
>> I would choose my Python/Pharo blend over Dolphin any day. I know it
>> introduces some pain, but I am willing to accept the pain. I like tools
>> that
>> allow me to use them where ever I am and whatever I am doing.
>>
>> However, that said, when I look at the facilities Python offers for such
>> capabilities it on appearances looks quite impressive.
>>
>> http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html
>>
>> """
>> ctypes is a foreign function library for Python. It provides C compatible
>> data types, and allows calling functions in DLLs or shared libraries. It
>> can
>> be used to wrap these libraries in pure Python.
>>
>> 15.18.1.1. Loading dynamic link libraries
>>
>> ctypes exports the cdll, and on Windows windll and oledll objects, for
>> loading dynamic link libraries.
>>
>> You load libraries by accessing them as attributes of these objects. cdll
>> loads libraries which export functions using the standard cdecl calling
>> convention, while windll libraries call functions using the stdcall
>> calling
>> convention. oledll also uses the stdcall calling convention, and assumes
>> the
>> functions return a Windows HRESULT error code. The error code is used to
>> automatically raise a WindowsError exception when the function call
>> fails.
>>
>> Here are some examples for Windows. Note that msvcrt is the MS standard C
>> library containing most standard C functions, and uses the cdecl calling
>> convention:
>>
>>>>> from ctypes import *
>>>>> print windll.kernel32 # doctest: +WINDOWS
>> <WinDLL 'kernel32', handle ... at ...>
>>>>> print cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS
>> <CDLL 'msvcrt', handle ... at ...>
>>>>> libc = cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS
>>>>
>>
>
> So? Why do you think that you cannot do the same in Pharo?
> Have you digested what is available before doing it in Python?
>
>
>> """
>>
>> It has examples for windows and linux.
>>
>
> I feel that you are seriously under-informed.
> Just try googling for:
>
> Squeak + FFI
> Alien
>
> NativeBoost
>
> and just check what you can do using it:
>
> http://www.squeaksource.com/NBOpenGL/
>
> also check mail archives.
>
> Forgive me, but i really can't understand , why you can't just look
> for what you need by yourself?
> Are google.com banned by your ISP?
>
> For me this subject is interested in aspect, why this information
> (while being available openly) didn't catch your
> attention , so you using python instead.
> (Okay, you might miss some functionality like being able to
> automatically generate bindings to COM interfaces).
> But again, i am sure that if you surf the net or ask right questions
> on mailing list, you will probably discover that
> there is already work being done in that direction.
> And at last, if you feel that there is missing some key functionality
> which you want, and you expect that it is also
> could be useful to community, you can always implement it and share
> with people (instead of using Python ;).
> So, next who will come after you won't find himself in a desert with
> couple of oasises few hundred miles away.
>
>> I didn't read it all as I am unqualified to assess its capabilities or
>> limitations, nor do I presently need it as the win32 extensions do easily
>> and well what I presently need to do.
>>
>> Hopefully it can inform us as to what is expected and doable in
>> alternative
>> languages which are dynamic like Smalltalk.
>>
>> Jimmie
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>

> Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex.
> Any ideas?
>
> I've used latex2html several years ago.
>
> +1 for html
>
> Laurent.
>
>  
>
> >>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system?
> >>>> Or a bug fix?
> >>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help.
> >>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :)
> >>
> >> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help?
> >>
> >>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website?
> >>
> >> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation.
> >> Now we can take the book contents and generate html
> >> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one.
> >> People are free to join and write one or two chapters.
> >
> > Stéphane,
> >
> > Of course you are right: wining/complaining doesn't help, only action does. We need more people like Laurent focusing on documentation.
> >
> > I for one think that the well written, high quality books that exist (PBE, Seaside Book) are *very valuable*, much better than confusing wiki site (although these have their place as well).
> >
> > But the other point is: in most other popular languages, what current, young developers do, when they get an error that they don't understand is copy/paste the literal text in Google and in a surprisingly large number of cases you find some real answers in the first page.
> >
> > This is also related to popularity of course.
> >
> > Sven
>
>
>

> Ok if some good souls want to give a try to generate html.
>
> Stef
>
>
>
>> Probably we should find a way to generate HTML from PDF or Latex.
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> I've used latex2html several years ago.
>>
>> +1 for html
>>
>> Laurent.
>>
>>
>>
>> >>>> Now for the documentation when did you send an help documentation for any part of the system?
>> >>>> Or a bug fix?
>> >>>> I find quite funny that people always talk but few are doing. We welcome comments/examples help.
>> >>> No need to get into a cat-fight here :)
>> >>
>> >> No this is not my point. But what do people really do to help?
>> >>
>> >>> I do agree with Stefan, as well as with you that we could help; but I'm unaware of a good documentation effort outside of the image to start with. Camillo's website project might be the best effort I've seen until now; but then I didn't really look either. Maybe I missed some great website?
>> >>
>> >> If this is just to spit out class comment on html I do not call that a documentation.
>> >> Now we can take the book contents and generate html
>> >> We have 350 pages in the first book and the same in the second one.
>> >> People are free to join and write one or two chapters.
>> >
>> > Stéphane,
>> >
>> > Of course you are right: wining/complaining doesn't help, only action does. We need more people like Laurent focusing on documentation.
>> >
>> > I for one think that the well written, high quality books that exist (PBE, Seaside Book) are *very valuable*, much better than confusing wiki site (although these have their place as well).
>> >
>> > But the other point is: in most other popular languages, what current, young developers do, when they get an error that they don't understand is copy/paste the literal text in Google and in a surprisingly large number of cases you find some real answers in the first page.
>> >
>> > This is also related to popularity of course.
>> >
>> > Sven
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>