Problem learning about Magritte

Hi Peter

That sounds like you have independently installed Seaside and Magritte.
You might miss the part connecting them together. Seaside can be used
without Magritte, and Magritte without Seaside. That happens if you just
install stable Seaside and stable Magritte from the configuration browser.

Can you check if you have Magritte-Seaside loaded?
That is in the Seaside group of Magritte.
If not, you need the other option in the configuration browser,
just loading the configuration of Magritte3.
Then in a workspace, do-it

(ConfigurationOfMagritte3 project version: #stable) load: 'Seaside'.

A faster way to start can be to use one of the images from
https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/
Pier, QCMagritte and Forum all come with both Magritte and Seaside
preloaded.

Stephan

2014-05-12 20:21 GMT-03:00 Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]>:

> A faster way to start can be to use one of the images from
> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/
> Pier, QCMagritte and Forum all come with both Magritte and Seaside
> preloaded.

I don't like this "faster way" of prebuilt images.
Makes me think of seeds for forked branches.
Unless something is wrong with the package system, I would encourage
its use, even if it takes long.

Regards,

Esteban A. Maringolo

Esteban wrote:
>I don't like this "faster way" of prebuilt images.
>Makes me think of seeds for forked branches.
>Unless something is wrong with the package system, I would encourage
>its use, even if it takes long.

I strongly encourage the use of ci images. And of course you should
add your own, once you've decided what packages you need.
The main advantage is that it provides feedback to the core pharo
development on changes.

Stephan

2014-05-12 20:47 GMT-03:00 Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]>:

2014-05-12 20:47 GMT-03:00 Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]>:
I'm totally in about CI images for testing purposes, but not for distribution.

Maybe it's a matter of personal taste.

Esteban A. Maringolo

ps: sorry for the off topic

Hello

 

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this. I am trying to understand how Magritte works, initially by following the first example in Ch. 26.2 of the Seaside book. I have started with a fresh download of Pharo 3.0, and I have installed Magritte 3 and Seaside 3. I realise that the Seaside book example is based on Magritte 2, so I have made necessary changes to the example code (descriptions are on the instance side, insert <magritteDescription> pragmas, change #description to #magritteDescription). All works well up to the point where I try to generate the Seaside editor. This fails because the code:

Address example1 asComponent

produces a 'does not understand' message for #asComponent. I have not been able to work through all of Seaside to see where this method is defined, and I am at a bit of a loss. I know this is rather elementary, but could someone give me a pointer?

 

Also, if Magritte 3 is now the norm, will the Seaside book examples be updated to reflect this?

They should but only I
    - reverse engineer Magritte 3
    - get the time to do it

I was planning to write an independent Chapter on Magrritte 3 but I got the same limits.
So if somebody knowlegeable wants to start writing two/three blog posts
we could turn it into a book chapter.

 

Thanks in advance for any help

 

Peter Kenny

On 13/5/14 01:34, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote:
why?
you can just read the configuration of the jenkins job and you know how
to build it.
The difference is that with the jenkins job we are SURE that the script
to load works.

Stef
>
> Regards,
>
> Esteban A. Maringolo
>
>

I ve both of these things working in my app on pharo3.

I'll have a look.

Hi Stephan

Many thanks. I was missing the Magritte-Seaside component. The problem is
now fixed. No doubt I will find others!

I started from scratch and loaded all the packages because I wanted to
understand how these things work, and because I needed a combination of
things installed - I have also loaded Voyage and PetitParser, hoping to use
all these things together. I did not expect to find all of these in a
pre-built image - maybe I was wrong.

Many thanks also for the speedy response. I posted my question and went to
bed. I did not expect to get an answer after midnight. It is interesting to
see that others work even stranger hours than I do!

Thanks also to others who commented. To Stepharo: I did not mean to sound
critical. I was wondering if an updated version already exists and I have
not yet found it. I know quite a bit about Smalltalk from Dolphin, but I am
new to Pharo and I feel like a blind man stumbling about. There are so many
packages around, and I do not understand what most of them do.

Could I just try one supplementary question about using Magritte. The paper
'Magritte - A Meta-Driven Approach to Empower Developers and End Users' by
Lukas Renggli, Stephane Ducasse and Adrian Kuhn has a section 3.2 on
building an editor, which shows how the same description can generate an
editor in Seaside or in Morphic Squeak (!). I know that #asComponent will
generate the Seaside version; is there a method #asMorph which will give the
morphic version as easily, or if not how do I get an editor as a Pharo
window?

Thanks again for the help.

Peter Kenny

-----Original Message-----
From: Pharo-users [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Stephan Eggermont
Sent: 13 May 2014 00:22
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

Hi Peter

That sounds like you have independently installed Seaside and Magritte.
You might miss the part connecting them together. Seaside can be used
without Magritte, and Magritte without Seaside. That happens if you just
install stable Seaside and stable Magritte from the configuration browser.

Can you check if you have Magritte-Seaside loaded?
That is in the Seaside group of Magritte.
If not, you need the other option in the configuration browser,
just loading the configuration of Magritte3.
Then in a workspace, do-it

(ConfigurationOfMagritte3 project version: #stable) load: 'Seaside'.

A faster way to start can be to use one of the images from
https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/
Pier, QCMagritte and Forum all come with both Magritte and Seaside
preloaded.

Stephan

2014-05-13 4:25 GMT-03:00 stepharo <[hidden email]>:
If the script to load works in a clean image I would put it in the
project page in SmalltalkHub or similar.
And a reference to the CI image in case running the script gets convoluted.

Again, CI images for testing of important contributions is great, but
if projects/packages can't be loaded easily into an existing image it
could mean the packaging is done wrong (developer) or the right
packaging can't be specified (Metacello and friends), 99% of the times
it is the former.

Regards,


Esteban A. Maringolo

Peter wrote:

>is there a method #asMorph which will give the
>morphic version as easily, or if not how do I get an editor as a Pharo
>window?

There is asMagritteMorph yes, defined in Magritte-Morph.
You might need to load that additionally (it is loaded in the Forum image).

Stephan

Stephan

Thanks. I have Magritte-Morph in my image, but I wonder if anyone has
debugged it. I send asMagritteMorph to a Magritte description and I get a
MAContainerMorph, which is OK. Try sending openInWorld to this, and it falls
over in MADescriptionMorph>>buildMorph, which calls
MADescriptionMorph>>rectangleMorph, which tries to create an instance of the
non-existent class RectangleMorph.

I have tried to trace this back, and it is true that my original Pharo 3.0
image, downloaded on 30 Apr 2014, does not have the class RectangleMorph. I
have looked at older images, and the class exists. Maybe my mistake was to
try to use the Pharo 3.0 image the day it was announced. Perhaps I would be
better off using one of the pre-packed images you mention. My only worry is
that there is a list of dozens of contributions on
https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/, and unless you have far more
knowledge than I have it is impossible to know which might be helpful. For
now I will follow your hint and use the Forum image.

Thanks again for your help.

Peter Kenny

-----Original Message-----
From: Pharo-users [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Stephan Eggermont
Sent: 14 May 2014 00:25
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

Peter wrote:

>is there a method #asMorph which will give the
>morphic version as easily, or if not how do I get an editor as a Pharo
>window?

There is asMagritteMorph yes, defined in Magritte-Morph.
You might need to load that additionally (it is loaded in the Forum image).

Stephan

you have an older version (configuration is probably not up to date)… just open project in monticello and load latest magritte-morph, it should work.

and yes, I use it all the time :)

Esteban

On 14 May 2014, at 12:00, PBK Research <[hidden email]> wrote:

Peter wrote:
>Thanks. I have Magritte-Morph in my image, but I wonder if anyone has
>debugged it. I send asMagritteMorph to a Magritte description and I get a
>MAContainerMorph, which is OK. Try sending openInWorld to this, and it falls
>over in MADescriptionMorph>>buildMorph, which calls
>MADescriptionMorph>>rectangleMorph, which tries to create an instance of the
>non-existent class RectangleMorph.

Hmm, that looks like you have an old version of Magritte-Morph loaded.
If you open the Monticello browser, you can select the Magritte-Morph
package and then open its repository to see if there is a newer version.
If you select a newer version and click Changes, you can see if this
newer version is likely to solve your problem (it is).

If you take a look at the ConfigurationOfMagritte3, you can see what
goes wrong. version32 is the first one referring to a Magritte-Morph
newer than version 70. stable: installs version311 however. So
ConfigurationOfMagritte3 needs a new stable version. (Done)

>I have tried to trace this back, and it is true that my original Pharo 3.0
>image, downloaded on 30 Apr 2014, does not have the class RectangleMorph. I
>have looked at older images, and the class exists. Maybe my mistake was to
>try to use the Pharo 3.0 image the day it was announced. Perhaps I would be
>better off using one of the pre-packed images you mention.

Pharo 3 has lots of improvements and clean-ups. RectangleMorph behavior
was folded back into BorderedMorph. The projects running on top of Pharo
have different ideas of what should be stable and what development
versions. The people developing them mostly use development releases
or specific versions. If there are not a lot of non-developing users the stable version
tends to lag behind. And if the specific problem is not in the tests, CI will not
break.

Just before the release, there are lots of fixes and the image changes fast.
Not all projects will be able to synchronize fast, and have sufficient trust
to declare a new version stable. So just after a release, you might have to use
a lot of development versions, check repositories and ask questions on
the mailing lists. Please do, that is the only way we can improve.

>My only worry is that there is a list of dozens of contributions on
>https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/, and unless you have far more
>knowledge than I have it is impossible to know which might be helpful. For
>now I will follow your hint and use the Forum image.

That's a helpful comment. Thank you. We should improve the project
descriptions (at least I should for mine).

Stephan



 

Esteban

Well I don't have /such/ an old version. As I said, I downloaded the new
Pharo 3.0 on 30 April. On 5 May I opened the configuration browser and
loaded ConfigurationOfMagritte3. So presumably what I have is at most 9 days
old. One of the frustrations of using Pharo is that everything seems to be
always changing.

I have in fact sorted it out by looking at the Forum image, following
Stephan's suggestion. There I found that the call to RectangleMorph class
has become BorderedMorph, and when I change that it all works. I now have an
editor window which will change the instance, so I more or less understand
how to use it. I still can't get it to produce an editor in a browser using
Seaside, but that is less important.

Peter Kenny

-----Original Message-----
From: Pharo-users [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Esteban Lorenzano
Sent: 14 May 2014 12:35
To: Any question about pharo is welcome
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

you have an older version (configuration is probably not up to date). just
open project in monticello and load latest magritte-morph, it should work.

and yes, I use it all the time :)

Esteban

On 14 May 2014, at 12:00, PBK Research <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Stephan
>
> Thanks. I have Magritte-Morph in my image, but I wonder if anyone has
> debugged it. I send asMagritteMorph to a Magritte description and I get a
> MAContainerMorph, which is OK. Try sending openInWorld to this, and it
falls
> over in MADescriptionMorph>>buildMorph, which calls
> MADescriptionMorph>>rectangleMorph, which tries to create an instance of
the
> non-existent class RectangleMorph.
>
> I have tried to trace this back, and it is true that my original Pharo 3.0
> image, downloaded on 30 Apr 2014, does not have the class RectangleMorph.
I
> have looked at older images, and the class exists. Maybe my mistake was to
> try to use the Pharo 3.0 image the day it was announced. Perhaps I would
be
> better off using one of the pre-packed images you mention. My only worry
is Of image).
>
> Stephan
>
>
>

Stephan

Thanks for the comment. I understand the point about development and things
not always being in step. But if you look at it from my point of view, I am
an elderly retired statistician who does programming for fun, I am not an
expert in development and I am pretty new to Pharo. It all looks a maze of
new terminology to me - I don't understand the difference between Monticello
and Metacello, for instance. I am sure to an expert your explanation of how
to check the correct version of Magritte3 is quite straightforward, but I
would never have found my way to that conclusion myself. As I pointed out to
Esteban, I used the configuration browser on 5 May to get the stable version
of Magritte3. If that was already out of date, I am pretty well lost.

Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about Magritte,
and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard this
as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily.

Peter Kenny

-----Original Message-----
From: Pharo-users [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Stephan Eggermont
Sent: 14 May 2014 12:58
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

Peter wrote:
>Thanks. I have Magritte-Morph in my image, but I wonder if anyone has
>debugged it. I send asMagritteMorph to a Magritte description and I get a
>MAContainerMorph, which is OK. Try sending openInWorld to this, and it
falls
>over in MADescriptionMorph>>buildMorph, which calls
>MADescriptionMorph>>rectangleMorph, which tries to create an instance of
the
>non-existent class RectangleMorph.

Hmm, that looks like you have an old version of Magritte-Morph loaded.
If you open the Monticello browser, you can select the Magritte-Morph
package and then open its repository to see if there is a newer version.
If you select a newer version and click Changes, you can see if this
newer version is likely to solve your problem (it is).

If you take a look at the ConfigurationOfMagritte3, you can see what
goes wrong. version32 is the first one referring to a Magritte-Morph
newer than version 70. stable: installs version311 however. So
ConfigurationOfMagritte3 needs a new stable version. (Done)

>I have tried to trace this back, and it is true that my original Pharo 3.0
>image, downloaded on 30 Apr 2014, does not have the class RectangleMorph. I

>have looked at older images, and the class exists. Maybe my mistake was to
>try to use the Pharo 3.0 image the day it was announced. Perhaps I would be

>better off using one of the pre-packed images you mention.

Pharo 3 has lots of improvements and clean-ups. RectangleMorph behavior
was folded back into BorderedMorph. The projects running on top of Pharo
have different ideas of what should be stable and what development
versions. The people developing them mostly use development releases
or specific versions. If there are not a lot of non-developing users the
stable version
tends to lag behind. And if the specific problem is not in the tests, CI
will not
break.

Just before the release, there are lots of fixes and the image changes fast.
Not all projects will be able to synchronize fast, and have sufficient trust
to declare a new version stable. So just after a release, you might have to
use
a lot of development versions, check repositories and ask questions on
the mailing lists. Please do, that is the only way we can improve.

>My only worry is that there is a list of dozens of contributions on
>https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/, and unless you have far more
>knowledge than I have it is impossible to know which might be helpful. For
>now I will follow your hint and use the Forum image.

That's a helpful comment. Thank you. We should improve the project
descriptions (at least I should for mine).

Stephan



 

2014-05-14 9:25 GMT-03:00 PBK Research <[hidden email]>:
> Stephan

> Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about Magritte,
> and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard this
> as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily.

Plus, you mention you're coming from Dolphin Smalltalk.
Which is easier than the average, in terms of straightforwardness.

Pharo has A LOT to offer, once you get used to aim at a moving target :)


Esteban A. Maringolo

2014-05-14 10:38 GMT-03:00 Robert Shiplett <[hidden email]>:
Sorry, but I didn't get the meaning of this. #lostInTranslation

But to clarify my intention, I was encouraging Peter to keep betting
on Pharo, given the visible frustration he had when told that
something downloaded a week ago is outdated.

Regards,

Esteban.