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horrido

Questions Before I Invest

Before I invest my time and energy in Amber, I have a couple of important questions...

First, can the generated JS code from Amber run on all browsers and browser versions? I've been investigating Dart, and one of its major drawbacks is that the Dart2JS compiler only supports the latest browser versions. I'm not even certain that it supports all browsers, such as the numerous ones available in Android.

Second, Smalltalk is not good at concurrency. How does Amber support concurrency, or does it support concurrency? I imagine the use of Web Workers is possible, though I'm not sure how to do it in Amber.

Thanks.

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Herby Vojčík

Re: Questions Before I Invest

Richard Eng wrote:
> Before I invest my time and energy in Amber, I have a couple of
> important questions...
>
> First, can the generated JS code from Amber run on all browsers and
> browser versions? I've been investigating Dart, and one of its major
> drawbacks is that the Dart2JS compiler *only supports the latest
> browser versions*. I'm not even certain that it supports all browsers,
> such as the numerous ones available in Android.

It uses es5shim and can use jQuery 1.x. But of course, it does not work everywhere. IE7 and less is off, and IE8 also does not run all the tests, a few ones fail, though it is generally supported.

If you want to be safe, you should also assume it only works on modern browser; "modern" meaning "ES5 is working there".

> Second, Smalltalk is not good at concurrency. How does Amber support

Well, it depends. Node.js is also "bad at concurrency", but in both cases, multiple processes running at different core and messaging each other w
as a successful approach.

> concurrency, or does it support concurrency? I imagine the use of Web
> Workers is possible, though I'm not sure how to do it in Amber.

The only problem would be amber would need to load into each web worker, which could eat the memory if you want to run thousands of them. Also, no one I know tried to load them there, yet.

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philippeback

Re: Questions Before I Invest

In reply to this post by horrido

On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

Before I invest my time and energy in Amber, I have a couple of important questions...

First, can the generated JS code from Amber run on all browsers and browser versions? I've been investigating Dart, and one of its major drawbacks is that the Dart2JS compiler only supports the latest browser versions. I'm not even certain that it supports all browsers, such as the numerous ones available in Android.

As far as I can tell, the JS is pretty normal. It works on a lot of things I do have here, Linux/Windows/OSX and Firefox/IE/Chrome in terms of client rendering.

For the UI side, the examples are using Widgets but you can come up with what you want.

Second, Smalltalk is not good at concurrency. How does Amber support concurrency, or does it support concurrency? I imagine the use of Web Workers is possible, though I'm not sure how to do it in Amber.

For lots of Javascript technologies, it is a just a matter of writing the methods to use them.

Objects are available directly.

e.g. using a node package:

fs := require value: 'fs'.
fs readdir: '/tmp' do: [:anError :aFileName| console log: aFileName].

Using localStorage is also easy.

Then in the browser, you can write methods in JavaScript directly with the <> syntax. Check the Set class in Collections for example.

WebWorkers should be doable too.

HTH

Phil

Thanks.

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Hannes Hirzel

Re: Questions Before I Invest

In reply to this post by horrido

On 11/20/14, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Before I invest my time and energy in Amber, I have a couple of important
> questions...
>
> First, can the generated JS code from Amber run on all browsers and browser
>
> versions? I've been investigating Dart, and one of its major drawbacks is
> that the Dart2JS compiler *only supports the latest browser versions*. I'm
> not even certain that it supports all browsers, such as the numerous ones
> available in Android.

Richard,

Good that you bring up the issue of compatibility.

I assume your question is in the context of a question liike this:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20764675/to-what-extent-can-i-have-faith-in-dart2js

We think that Amber is pretty good but we do not have formal proofs
and records yet.

It would be good if could you provide a link to a report which shows
on which browsers the Dart2JS compiler generated code works. That
would give us a start for doing a comparison.

Amber has 300 built in tests in the IDE and the IDE as such is a good
test case as well.
So you might just bring up the IDE in different older browsers and do
some UI tests.

Amber Smalltalk may as well be perceived as a kind of "glue" language
for various JS libraries. So compatibility depends then on them.

We have done a modest start to establish a more formal testing framework...

The Amber project has been first released in 2011. It builds on the
result of http://clamato.net/

Guess is that is runs fine on all browsers which have been released
2010 and later.

HTH

--Hannes

P.S. And the question about compatibility came up earlier. So checking
out the mail archive might help.

> Second, Smalltalk is not good at concurrency. How does Amber support
> concurrency, or does it support concurrency? I imagine the use of Web
> Workers is possible, though I'm not sure how to do it in Amber.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "amber-lang" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to [hidden email].
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

Hannes Hirzel

Re: Questions Before I Invest

A link to a clamato report (precursor of Amber Smalltalk)

http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/09/javascript-compilation-target

On 11/22/14, H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/20/14, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Before I invest my time and energy in Amber, I have a couple of important
>> questions...
>>
>> First, can the generated JS code from Amber run on all browsers and
>> browser
>>
>> versions? I've been investigating Dart, and one of its major drawbacks is
>> that the Dart2JS compiler *only supports the latest browser versions*.
>> I'm
>> not even certain that it supports all browsers, such as the numerous ones
>> available in Android.
>
> Richard,
>
> Good that you bring up the issue of compatibility.
>
> I assume your question is in the context of a question liike this:
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20764675/to-what-extent-can-i-have-faith-in-dart2js
>
> We think that Amber is pretty good but we do not have formal proofs
> and records yet.
>
> It would be good if could you provide a link to a report which shows
> on which browsers the Dart2JS compiler generated code works. That
> would give us a start for doing a comparison.
>
> Amber has 300 built in tests in the IDE and the IDE as such is a good
> test case as well.
> So you might just bring up the IDE in different older browsers and do
> some UI tests.
>
> Amber Smalltalk may as well be perceived as a kind of "glue" language
> for various JS libraries. So compatibility depends then on them.
>
> We have done a modest start to establish a more formal testing framework...
>
> The Amber project has been first released in 2011. It builds on the
> result of http://clamato.net/
>
> Guess is that is runs fine on all browsers which have been released
> 2010 and later.
>
> HTH
>
> --Hannes
>
> P.S. And the question about compatibility came up earlier. So checking
> out the mail archive might help.
>
>> Second, Smalltalk is not good at concurrency. How does Amber support
>> concurrency, or does it support concurrency? I imagine the use of Web
>> Workers is possible, though I'm not sure how to do it in Amber.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "amber-lang" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to [hidden email].
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>

Hannes Hirzel

Re: Questions Before I Invest

I have added your question
https://github.com/amber-smalltalk/amber-documentation/issues/34

On 11/22/14, H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A link to a clamato report (precursor of Amber Smalltalk)
>
> http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/09/javascript-compilation-target
>
> On 11/22/14, H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 11/20/14, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Before I invest my time and energy in Amber, I have a couple of
>>> important
>>> questions...
>>>
>>> First, can the generated JS code from Amber run on all browsers and
>>> browser
>>>
>>> versions? I've been investigating Dart, and one of its major drawbacks
>>> is
>>> that the Dart2JS compiler *only supports the latest browser versions*.
>>> I'm
>>> not even certain that it supports all browsers, such as the numerous
>>> ones
>>> available in Android.
>>
>> Richard,
>>
>> Good that you bring up the issue of compatibility.
>>
>> I assume your question is in the context of a question liike this:
>> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20764675/to-what-extent-can-i-have-faith-in-dart2js
>>
>> We think that Amber is pretty good but we do not have formal proofs
>> and records yet.
>>
>> It would be good if could you provide a link to a report which shows
>> on which browsers the Dart2JS compiler generated code works. That
>> would give us a start for doing a comparison.
>>
>> Amber has 300 built in tests in the IDE and the IDE as such is a good
>> test case as well.
>> So you might just bring up the IDE in different older browsers and do
>> some UI tests.
>>
>> Amber Smalltalk may as well be perceived as a kind of "glue" language
>> for various JS libraries. So compatibility depends then on them.
>>
>> We have done a modest start to establish a more formal testing
>> framework...
>>
>> The Amber project has been first released in 2011. It builds on the
>> result of http://clamato.net/
>>
>> Guess is that is runs fine on all browsers which have been released
>> 2010 and later.
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> --Hannes
>>
>> P.S. And the question about compatibility came up earlier. So checking
>> out the mail archive might help.
>>
>>> Second, Smalltalk is not good at concurrency. How does Amber support
>>> concurrency, or does it support concurrency? I imagine the use of Web
>>> Workers is possible, though I'm not sure how to do it in Amber.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups
>>> "amber-lang" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an
>>> email to [hidden email].
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>

horrido

Re: Questions Before I Invest

In reply to this post by Hannes Hirzel

Thanks for the stackoverflow link. It has an interesting takeaway: "cross-browser compatibility is mainly the job of the developer".

Okay, but what is the developer supposed to do if he finds that his app doesn't run quite right in some browsers (or browser versions)? I understand that "that is the nature of the web currently; different browsers render things differently, have their own bugs and quirks, and in general do not work the same way." That's why the developer is relying on Dart2JS to iron out these issues.

On Saturday, 22 November 2014 05:49:03 UTC-5, Hannes wrote:

On 11/20/14, Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="pFW-6SkCOdwJ" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">horrido...@...> wrote:
> Before I invest my time and energy in Amber, I have a couple of important
> questions...
>
> First, can the generated JS code from Amber run on all browsers and browser
>
> versions? I've been investigating Dart, and one of its major drawbacks is
> that the Dart2JS compiler *only supports the latest browser versions*. I'm
> not even certain that it supports all browsers, such as the numerous ones
> available in Android.

Richard,

Good that you bring up the issue of compatibility.

I assume your question is in the context of a question liike this:
<a href="http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20764675/to-what-extent-can-i-have-faith-in-dart2js" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fstackoverflow.com%2Fquestions%2F20764675%2Fto-what-extent-can-i-have-faith-in-dart2js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHOmG_yq4nbtKkYRMRlD-ZWU4Kj2A';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fstackoverflow.com%2Fquestions%2F20764675%2Fto-what-extent-can-i-have-faith-in-dart2js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHOmG_yq4nbtKkYRMRlD-ZWU4Kj2A';return true;">http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20764675/to-what-extent-can-i-have-faith-in-dart2js

We think that Amber is pretty good but we do not have formal proofs
and records yet.

It would be good if could you provide a link to a report which shows
on which browsers the Dart2JS compiler generated code works. That
would give us a start for doing a comparison.

Amber has 300 built in tests in the IDE and the IDE as such is a good
test case as well.
So you might just bring up the IDE in different older browsers and do
some UI tests.

Amber Smalltalk may as well be perceived as a kind of "glue" language
for various JS libraries. So compatibility depends then on them.

We have done a modest start to establish a more formal testing framework...

The Amber project has been first released in 2011. It builds on the
result of <a href="http://clamato.net/" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fclamato.net%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCXCxf2IoSPF4lS554fz9QkN7vmw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fclamato.net%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCXCxf2IoSPF4lS554fz9QkN7vmw';return true;">http://clamato.net/

Guess is that is runs fine on all browsers which have been released
2010 and later.

HTH

--Hannes

P.S. And the question about compatibility came up earlier. So checking
out the mail archive might help.

> Second, Smalltalk is not good at concurrency. How does Amber support
> concurrency, or does it support concurrency? I imagine the use of Web
> Workers is possible, though I'm not sure how to do it in Amber.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "amber-lang" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to <a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="pFW-6SkCOdwJ" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">amber-lang+...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit <a href="https://groups.google.com/d/optout" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://groups.google.com/d/optout';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://groups.google.com/d/optout';return true;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

horrido

Re: Questions Before I Invest

In reply to this post by Hannes Hirzel

According to Dartlang's FAQ:

We support the following browsers:
Internet Explorer, versions 9, 10, and 11.
Dart v1.5 will be the last release to support Internet Explorer 9.
Firefox, latest version.
Chrome, latest version.
Safari for desktop, version 6.
Safari for mobile, version 6.

That's a pretty short list! Where's Opera?? Where are the more popular Android browsers? (Remember: client-side apps are expected to be popular on mobile devices.) And there is still a significant number of users on earlier browser versions.

On Saturday, 22 November 2014 05:49:03 UTC-5, Hannes wrote:

On 11/20/14, Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="pFW-6SkCOdwJ" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">horrido...@...> wrote:
> Before I invest my time and energy in Amber, I have a couple of important
> questions...
>
> First, can the generated JS code from Amber run on all browsers and browser
>
> versions? I've been investigating Dart, and one of its major drawbacks is
> that the Dart2JS compiler *only supports the latest browser versions*. I'm
> not even certain that it supports all browsers, such as the numerous ones
> available in Android.

Richard,

Good that you bring up the issue of compatibility.

I assume your question is in the context of a question liike this:
<a href="http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20764675/to-what-extent-can-i-have-faith-in-dart2js" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fstackoverflow.com%2Fquestions%2F20764675%2Fto-what-extent-can-i-have-faith-in-dart2js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHOmG_yq4nbtKkYRMRlD-ZWU4Kj2A';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fstackoverflow.com%2Fquestions%2F20764675%2Fto-what-extent-can-i-have-faith-in-dart2js\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHOmG_yq4nbtKkYRMRlD-ZWU4Kj2A';return true;">http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20764675/to-what-extent-can-i-have-faith-in-dart2js

We think that Amber is pretty good but we do not have formal proofs
and records yet.

It would be good if could you provide a link to a report which shows
on which browsers the Dart2JS compiler generated code works. That
would give us a start for doing a comparison.

Amber has 300 built in tests in the IDE and the IDE as such is a good
test case as well.
So you might just bring up the IDE in different older browsers and do
some UI tests.

Amber Smalltalk may as well be perceived as a kind of "glue" language
for various JS libraries. So compatibility depends then on them.

We have done a modest start to establish a more formal testing framework...

The Amber project has been first released in 2011. It builds on the
result of <a href="http://clamato.net/" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fclamato.net%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCXCxf2IoSPF4lS554fz9QkN7vmw';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fclamato.net%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGCXCxf2IoSPF4lS554fz9QkN7vmw';return true;">http://clamato.net/

Guess is that is runs fine on all browsers which have been released
2010 and later.

HTH

--Hannes

P.S. And the question about compatibility came up earlier. So checking
out the mail archive might help.

> Second, Smalltalk is not good at concurrency. How does Amber support
> concurrency, or does it support concurrency? I imagine the use of Web
> Workers is possible, though I'm not sure how to do it in Amber.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "amber-lang" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to <a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="pFW-6SkCOdwJ" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">amber-lang+...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit <a href="https://groups.google.com/d/optout" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://groups.google.com/d/optout';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://groups.google.com/d/optout';return true;">https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

horrido

Re: Questions Before I Invest

In reply to this post by horrido

Thanks for the responses. They are very helpful.

At the GWT forum, I responded with this:

A lot of people, myself included, are turned off by Java. (It's no coincidence that Java is one of the most despised languages in the world, along with PHP, Visual Basic, C++, and JavaScript, with Perl often mentioned, too.) Java is too "heavy" a language, and it is by no means a "fun" language. (I personally favour Go, Python, and Smalltalk.)

For both GWT and Dart project, Google should've focused on a much simpler and more elegant language. Google should not have tried to appeal to Java developers. Making Dart Java-like may well be the nail in the coffin.

I agree that JS is the 'assembler' language of the web. Given that, I am drawn to Amber Smalltalk...

On Thursday, 20 November 2014 10:11:27 UTC-5, Richard Eng wrote:

Before I invest my time and energy in Amber, I have a couple of important questions...

First, can the generated JS code from Amber run on all browsers and browser versions? I've been investigating Dart, and one of its major drawbacks is that the Dart2JS compiler only supports the latest browser versions. I'm not even certain that it supports all browsers, such as the numerous ones available in Android.

Second, Smalltalk is not good at concurrency. How does Amber support concurrency, or does it support concurrency? I imagine the use of Web Workers is possible, though I'm not sure how to do it in Amber.

Thanks.