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• Why Aren't People Using Smalltalk? - 11 Updates

Why Aren't People Using Smalltalk?

Richard Eng <[hidden email]>: Aug 17 05:12AM -0700 https://medium.com/@richardeng/why-aren-t-people-using-smalltalk-80de31b6e3f4

Guido Stepken <[hidden email]>: Aug 17 03:27PM +0200 Should give you to think, that, for the Pharo team, it almost took them 8 years now (beginning may 2008) to clean up all that mess, squeak hackers produced over time. And they aren't even finished yet.   Running stable? No.   Smalltalk definitly is not suited for being processed in enterprise environment with changing personal. No clean, "named" interfaces that can be communicated and trained.   Instead, it's Smalltalk code mostly a complete mess of objective neurons, sending, exchanging messages between each other. Amorphic strucures. Not communicable. That's the main problem.   Have fun!

"[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>: Aug 17 03:56PM +0200 As if Java was....     > Should give you to think, that, for the Pharo team, it almost took them 8 years now (beginning may 2008) to clean up all that mess, squeak hackers produced over time. And they aren't even finished yet.   > Running stable? No.   > Smalltalk definitly is not suited for being processed in enterprise environment with changing personal. No clean, "named" interfaces that can be communicated and trained.   > Instead, it's Smalltalk code mostly a complete mess of objective neurons, sending, exchanging messages between each other. Amorphic strucures. Not communicable. That's the main problem.   > Have fun!   > Am 17.08.2015 14:12 schrieb "Richard Eng" <[hidden email]>:   https://medium.com/@richardeng/why-aren-t-people-using-smalltalk-80de31b6e3f4   >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.   > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "amber-lang" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email].

"Martin Bähr" <[hidden email]>: Aug 17 04:18PM +0200 Excerpts from Guido Stepken's message of 2015-08-17 15:27:55 +0200: > be communicated and trained.   > Instead, it's Smalltalk code mostly a complete mess of objective neurons, > sending, exchanging messages between each other.   and that is different from any other object oriented language how?   you can create clean structures or messy systems in any language.   what do you mean by "no clean, named interfaces"? are you talking about java interfaces? i doubt it because that would mean that java is pretty much the only usable language out there, and python, ruby, php and many others should suffer the same fate as smalltalk.   that can't be it.   do you mean that none of the current interfaces in smalltalk are clean enough to be communicated and learned? ever looked at php? now that's messy. didn't stop it from becoming the most popular web development language for more than a decade.   > Amorphic strucures. Not communicable. That's the main problem.   i have used object oriented programming languages for more than 20 years now. i only used smalltalk for a few months. all i can say is: same old, same old.   there are classes, methods, arguments, data structures, just like any other language. the syntax is different, and control structures are a bit odd, and then there is the builtin IDE, the ability to introspect and analyse code at runtime.   but other than that, i can't tell the difference between writing code in smalltalk, or lisp, python, ruby, java. it's all the same. you have your logic, process data, use and build modules, load them, call them, etc.   it's all one and the same.   greetings, martin.   -- eKita - the online platform for your entire academic life -- chief engineer eKita.co pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se caudium.net societyserver.org secretary beijinglug.org mentor fossasia.org foresight developer foresightlinux.org realss.com unix sysadmin Martin Bähr working in china http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/

blake watson <[hidden email]>: Aug 17 08:24AM -0700

"Martin Bähr" <[hidden email]>: Aug 17 06:05PM +0200 Excerpts from blake watson's message of 2015-08-17 17:24:38 +0200: > > >>it's all one and the same. > > So then why would anyone use Smalltalk?   because of the IDE, introspection capabilities, live coding. in other words better tooling around the language.   because i like the syntax, it's elegant, minimalistic.   because smalltalk came first. (why would i use any other language that doesn't add anything to what smalltalk already has)   because i like the image concept. (it's a matter of taste though, if you don't like it, maybe smalltalk is not for you (or use gnu-smalltalk))   these are all subjective reasons though. i do not believe that there are any objective reasons for choosing any language. only sometimes language-choice is restricted by outside requirements.   greetings, martin.   -- eKita - the online platform for your entire academic life -- chief engineer eKita.co pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se caudium.net societyserver.org secretary beijinglug.org mentor fossasia.org foresight developer foresightlinux.org realss.com unix sysadmin Martin Bähr working in china http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/

"[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>: Aug 17 08:03PM +0200 Because it is not the same.   And you can't know it unless you use it for real on something complicated where it all makes sense.   And as Pharo is not Smalltalk but Smalltalk inspired, Why aren't people using Pharo?   BTW a smaller community has advantages, among which people sticking to it are quite a fine bunch and are inspiring. It kind of beats a lot of other aspects of some communities where StackOverflow Q&A is now the Tao of Programming.   Phil   On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 5:24 PM, blake watson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>: Aug 17 07:04PM Smalltalk is both a lovely environment and a set of very successful ideas. I am using it and I invest my precious time in it while I could have used pretty much any other things out there. Squeak is great and I am very happy to see Pharo continue the path and keep pushing Smalltalk forward. Of course its great seeing project like Amber push things forward.   For me Smalltalk is what I was looking all my life in terms of coding, and there is nothing like it out there. On the how to make Smalltalk more popular, I think the secret is to make it better and better. Create a bigger more powerful library, support modern technologies, great documentation, a more modern IDE, native GUI look, GUI designers etc. Of course all these things take a lot of work and effort.   But even if Smalltalk never becomes very popular, if we keep pushing it forward is more than enough at least for me.   On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 9:03 PM [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

"Herby Vojčík" <[hidden email]>: Aug 17 09:08PM +0200 > popular, I think the secret is to make it better and better. Create a > bigger more powerful library, support modern technologies, great > documentation, a more modern IDE, native GUI look, GUI designers etc.   Yeah, documentation :-/

Jeremy Shute <[hidden email]>: Aug 17 07:12PM (Why Aren't People Using Smalltalk?)   ...because people aren't using Smalltalk.   Google+ was an arguably better product than Facebook. Doesn't mean it wasn't a ghost town.   Jeremy

Joachim Tuchel <[hidden email]>: Aug 18 01:15AM -0700 Guido,   your comment is unfair. Pharo has completely different goals than Squeak has - and the code quality in Pharo is also not always excellent. But hey, who writes perfect ode, anyways? Do you think code quality in Ruby or C# projects is much better? I doubt it. Objective-C is a mess. Ruby even more. Even more important: Smalltalk is so much more than just Squeak and Pharo. So I am not sure your comment really qualifies as an answer to the (stupid) question.   Joachim     Am Montag, 17. August 2015 15:27:58 UTC+2 schrieb Guido Stepken:

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