Re: Digest for amber-lang@googlegroups.com - 9 updates in 1 topic

Smalltalk, as a development environment with advanced tools, debuggers and workflow can't be beat.  In formal evaluations, Smalltalk is the most productive general purpose language.

Smalltalk does lack the vast array of libraries and re-usable code required to complete modern-day solutoins. But, when Smalltalk is hosted atop Javascript, .NET or Java, if fully implemented with the unbeatable development environment and debugger, we can get the best of both worlds.

My wish is to have Amber become a fully functional IDE with a full featured Smalltalk debugger. I understand this is a challenge, given the Javascript "runtime", but if this could be done, we could use existing Javascript libraries and still program at the more abstract and productive Smalltalk level. 

Likewise, if Smalltalk on the now-open-source and cross-platform .NET could have the Smalltalk IDE and debugger, then we could leverage the existing .NET libraries.  Again, the best of both worlds.  This project has the most potential in the Smalltalk on .NET camp: <a href="https://essencesharp.wordpress.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fessencesharp.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGTwbrSTUyKW7Cmw2vXfaBFsh-VnA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fessencesharp.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGTwbrSTUyKW7Cmw2vXfaBFsh-VnA&#39;;return true;">https://essencesharp.wordpress.com/

There are different levels of programmers and use cases that need to be addressed with ST on Javascript and ST on .NET. 

#1. Application Developers - Ideally, cross platform apps (desktop, in-browser or mobile) could be entirely developed in the ST IDE (on top of Javascript or .NET) with wrappers to access the most popular libraries.  All code, exept for HTML and CSS maybe would be in Smalltalk.  Meteor would be an example of such a system implemented in Javascript.

#2. Library Wrappers and Integrators - These programmers create the wrappers and integrations used by the Application Programmers.

#3. Tool and IDE Developers - Create an ever-improving developer experience. that #1 and #2. use. These developers are the few highly competent Smalltalkers that understand the entire system and IDE.

#4. Yoda and Associates - These are the talented folks that ensure systems such as Amber Smalltalk (on Javascript) and Essence Sharp Smalltalk (on .NET) are architected to make true Smalltalk debuggers and performant runtime systems are possible.

Another important requirement, support for multi-processors within Smalltalk.  Only the Essence Sharp Smalltalk is capable of utilizing the underlying .NET multi-threaded VM.  This is crucial for server-side Smalltalk system. With a multi-threaded Smalltalk on the server-side, a Facebook scale system is possible. That would put Smalltalk on the map, if the next big thing was built with something like a more mature Essence Sharp Smalltalk. 

...

Peter Odehnal
778 338-4800

On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 1:06 AM, <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">amber...@...> wrote:

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• <a style="color:#1155cc;text-decoration:none" href="#CANnR5L2Nhg0GDavx_gV-VCeUYCxDSFwcznNC=9KY-j=7EdVqnw@mail.gmail.com_1516c3e3c09c8f44_group_thread_0" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;#CANnR5L2Nhg0GDavx_gV-VCeUYCxDSFwcznNC\759KY-j\0757EdVqnw@mail.gmail.com_1516c3e3c09c8f44_group_thread_0&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;#CANnR5L2Nhg0GDavx_gV-VCeUYCxDSFwcznNC\759KY-j\0757EdVqnw@mail.gmail.com_1516c3e3c09c8f44_group_thread_0&#39;;return true;"> Why Aren't People Using Smalltalk? - 9 Updates

<a href="http://groups.google.com/group/amber-lang/t/dc798fccc32d242a?utm_source=digest&amp;utm_medium=email" style="font-size:21px;color:#1155cc;text-decoration:none" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://groups.google.com/group/amber-lang/t/dc798fccc32d242a?utm_source\75digest\46utm_medium\75email&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://groups.google.com/group/amber-lang/t/dc798fccc32d242a?utm_source\75digest\46utm_medium\75email&#39;;return true;"> Why Aren't People Using Smalltalk?

Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">horrido...@...>: Dec 03 06:10AM -0800 Definitely, common libraries (and their associated documentation) are the major impediment to Pharo/Amber/Smalltalk adoption. This is the key strength of languages such as Java, JavaScript, Python, etc. To ignore this fact is to condemn Smalltalk to its permanent niche.     On Wednesday, 2 December 2015 11:07:05 UTC-5, Jose Comesaña wrote:

Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">horrido...@...>: Dec 03 06:24AM -0800 I think, perhaps, you are overlooking the overarching goal of language "popularity." It's not about winning a language pageant. It's about growing the user community; it's about growing the ecosystem, *namely, common libraries*.   The fact is, without a larger community, there will be little incentive to consolidate the Smalltalk ecosystem and, in particular, produce the vast array of common libraries that is most coveted in other languages such as Java, JavaScript, Python, etc.   I agree 100 per cent with you about "getting things done." However, with the lack of common libraries in Smalltalk, you are at the mercy of whatever built-in class library you have in Pharo, Cincom, Dolphin, etc. *This limits the extent to which you can get things done.* There are many problem domains denied to Smalltalk that are well-served by the above-mentioned languages.   I'm sorry to say, but right now, Pharo and Smalltalk are little more than "boutique" languages. I appreciate the sentiment about making the platform better and better, but that, by itself, will not necessarily grow our community. *"Build it and they will come" is a falsehood.*

Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">horrido...@...>: Dec 03 06:37AM -0800 Well said! I could not be more eloquent.   We *must* convince more people to use Pharo/Smalltalk. "Build it and they will come" simply does not work.     On Wednesday, 18 November 2015 18:14:51 UTC-5, Euan M. wrote:

"Martin Bähr" <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">mba...@....ac.at>: Dec 03 06:37PM +0100 Excerpts from Euan M.'s message of 2015-11-19 00:14:51 +0100: > means that developers target "Ruby" or "Python" or "Java". As opposed to > targetting "Joe Bloggs's fork of Python of 1997", or "Emily Watkins's fork > of Ruby of 2003", etc.   just as an anecdotal observation, i didn't feel this so much with smalltalk, but i did feel it with common lisp more than a decade ago. one of the things i am most interested in in any language is its networking stack. back then, each common lisp implementation had its own incompatible networking stack. i looked at that and just said, no way! this is not going to do it for me. and it took another decade when quicklisp made it possible to offer a more unified set of libraries across all common lisp implementation before i looked at it again.   now why i didn't feel that with smalltalk is mostly because i really wanted to learn smalltalk, no matter what. but also because of the IDE aspect of smalltalk, i didn't expect all smalltalk implementations to be the same. (but also maybe i wasn't aware that there were so many different smalltalk implementations still around. i thought except for squeak (and pharo being a fork of squeak), they were all dead and no longer relevant)   i can very well see that others won't be driven by the same motivation and won't ignore other smalltalk implementations as i did.   common lisp was the result of a huge effort of lisp standardization, i think while lisp was very popular, something that i believe smalltalk never experienced. i don't know what drove lisp standardization, but i doubt smalltalk standardization will happen until smalltalk gets more popular again. and it definitely won't happen as long as people believe that smalltalk-80 is the standard we must follow. i think if we want a standard it needs to be a new standard that is driven by modern smalltalk implementations such as amber and pharo and includes a set of libraries that is commonly expected from languages today.   greetings, martin.   -- eKita - the online platform for your entire academic life -- chief engineer eKita.co pike programmer <a href="http://pike.lysator.liu.se" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA&#39;;return true;">pike.lysator.liu.se <a href="http://caudium.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcaudium.net\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEYzslt9t1j0dGxb_Ka8faLOGHwqQ&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcaudium.net\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEYzslt9t1j0dGxb_Ka8faLOGHwqQ&#39;;return true;">caudium.net <a href="http://societyserver.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag&#39;;return true;">societyserver.org secretary <a href="http://beijinglug.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q&#39;;return true;">beijinglug.org mentor <a href="http://fossasia.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g&#39;;return true;">fossasia.org foresight developer <a href="http://foresightlinux.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforesightlinux.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaJ9_Y9lcY21yw_D2lZAE3mu_Jtg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforesightlinux.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaJ9_Y9lcY21yw_D2lZAE3mu_Jtg&#39;;return true;">foresightlinux.org <a href="http://realss.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Frealss.com\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHih6WMCaKD68bQT72_Uh4uQD5eQ&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Frealss.com\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHih6WMCaKD68bQT72_Uh4uQD5eQ&#39;;return true;">realss.com unix sysadmin Martin Bähr working in china <a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g&#39;;return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/

EuanM <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">eua...@...>: Dec 04 05:23AM Hi Martin,   It's not the people who arrive that this matters for. It's the people who *don't* show up that this matters for.   I would contend that while you, or I, might not feel this is an issue - it is a big issue for many.   And we in the Smalltalk communities are not being flooded with so many newcomers that we can afford to put them off before they even get here.   We need more people. (Lots of people say that we do not need any more people, or any more mindshare, or any more popularity. Saying it does not make it true.)   So we need to look for the little efficiencies that do not cost us much, that help us: - capture the interest of people in Smalltalk, when there are so many languages vying for their interest - help them act upon that interest, by making finding, downloading, and installing a Smalltalk easy. and help them overcome both choice paralysis, and the fact that choice itself is viewed as a hassle in these situations. - make them feel welcome in our forums, mailing lists, and chat channels. We especially need to be wary of the twin issues of "Just RTFM!" and mistaking inexperience and lack of knowledge for stupidity - help them navigate any unspoken social norms. - help them to begin to code and develop with Smalltalk - help make it easy for them to contribute to community-building tasks, such as documentation, blogging their experiences, etc - help them travel up the ladder of skill   I've attached a slide that I think helps show the plethora of choices even in zero-cost Smalltalks. (And I have not (yet) even got all the zero-cost Smalltalks onto the slide).   On 3 December 2015 at 17:37, Martin Bähr

"Martin Bähr" <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">mba...@....ac.at>: Dec 04 07:24AM +0100 Excerpts from EuanM's message of 2015-12-04 06:23:34 +0100: > It's not the people who arrive that this matters for. It's the people > who *don't* show up that this matters for.   exactly that!   > I would contend that while you, or I, might not feel this is an issue > - it is a big issue for many.   of course, we would not be here if it mattered.   > - make them feel welcome in our forums, mailing lists, and chat > channels. We especially need to be wary of the twin issues of "Just > RTFM!" and mistaking inexperience and lack of knowledge for stupidity   i don't think we have a problem here, at least so far everything that i have seen on pharo and squeak forums is doing this right. especially on the pharo list, many people carry a reminder that any question us allowed, and answers tend to be friendly.   smalltalk has so far been the most welcoming community i came across.   > I've attached a slide that I think helps show the plethora of choices > even in zero-cost Smalltalks. (And I have not (yet) even got all the > zero-cost Smalltalks onto the slide).   i don't recognize many of those logos except aida, seaside, pharo and amber. if your point is that there are may application running on smalltalk, then i don't really see that as a problem. ruby has more than just rails too. same for other languages. that is just a sign of maturity. anyone taken aback by that can't really be helped as they would have the same problem in any language.   greetings, martin.   -- eKita - the online platform for your entire academic life -- chief engineer eKita.co pike programmer <a href="http://pike.lysator.liu.se" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fpike.lysator.liu.se\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEvQ03oa3TB9z8nTXi-CkmrjqorFA&#39;;return true;">pike.lysator.liu.se <a href="http://caudium.net" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcaudium.net\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEYzslt9t1j0dGxb_Ka8faLOGHwqQ&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fcaudium.net\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEYzslt9t1j0dGxb_Ka8faLOGHwqQ&#39;;return true;">caudium.net <a href="http://societyserver.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNE_5aJ_mdZkvSrOv1cEqLp4WlWhag&#39;;return true;">societyserver.org secretary <a href="http://beijinglug.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fbeijinglug.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGcMonCqhzNZNa3GwWBKaTiTm8E4Q&#39;;return true;">beijinglug.org mentor <a href="http://fossasia.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Ffossasia.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFMwaBnF0Iu9Prg3-iLxZ5BhKSD_g&#39;;return true;">fossasia.org foresight developer <a href="http://foresightlinux.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforesightlinux.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaJ9_Y9lcY21yw_D2lZAE3mu_Jtg&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforesightlinux.org\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNHaJ9_Y9lcY21yw_D2lZAE3mu_Jtg&#39;;return true;">foresightlinux.org <a href="http://realss.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Frealss.com\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHih6WMCaKD68bQT72_Uh4uQD5eQ&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Frealss.com\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHih6WMCaKD68bQT72_Uh4uQD5eQ&#39;;return true;">realss.com unix sysadmin Martin Bähr working in china <a href="http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fsocietyserver.org%2Fmbaehr%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFHqg9eOMnanxXjpobL7Vb80JtF5g&#39;;return true;">http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/

"<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">ph...@..." <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">ph...@...>: Dec 04 09:47AM +0100 As I am working on the following non-Pharo tech:   Hadoop 2.x --> lots of Java, Python, Ruby, even C ZendFramework2 --> PHP5.6 (has closures, array.map, filter, ... yay!), Swagger (API desc/gen) CSS --> Bootstrap 3 + themes like Metronic or SmartAdmin, SASS AngularJS 1.4.x --> JavaScript all over, promises, Restangular, templates JavaScript --> Grunt, Browsersync, some Amber, minification, concat... Ionic --> lots of custom directives for mobile + Android SDK and Studio Angular-Material --> Material Design stuff MongoDB --> gridFS Data science --> R, RStudio, Shiny, Python, Pandas, Numpy, Scipy, Lapack, Jupyter notebook, ...   Do I want any of these communities go to Pharo? Why?   Heh, I don't.   They are fine in their own right. Pharo is not the Borg.   What we need is easy integration. Read: bridges.   Make Pharo more of a command line citizen.   The best would be to be able to mount an image like a filesystem. And expose all of Pharo as a REST API. And have a super duper command line tooling. And have ability to call external code in, like, one liners (e.g. popen...) And being integratable in other C programs, à la Python, TCL, ... (this one harder atm due to the interpreter loop implementation, but that's not a core issue, just a manpower/brainpower challenge)   This may take years, but we'll get there.   If anyone knows of a person with deep pockets and a wish to make a mark on the world, just tell that person to cut us a fat check (or two).   Popularity? Heck, I don't care.   1/ I care about a platform that is free, portable and understandable/hackable from top to bottom.   2/ I care about a platform that doesn't get into the flow of my thinking.   3/ I care about a platform that let me navigate around my codebase like it would be an extension of my brain.   4/ I care about a platform that let me write DSLs and parsers at the speed of thought so that I can generate a ton of what is needed by the above mentioned technology stacks.   That's what I get with Pharo and its VM.   What I am frustrated with is that I cannot use Pharo only for making the whole solution.   But let's make it nice for the backend and integration and we'll be fine.   FWIW, I am a Pharo consortium member and have made a commitment to stick with Pharo for as long as I'll be in business. One needs to see the long play. Hopefully, I'll be able to cut the above mentioned check on of these days.   Phil       On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 7:24 AM, Martin Bähr <

Dimitris Chloupis <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">kilon...@...>: Dec 04 08:54AM Bravo Phil , +1 million, I cannot upvote this enough.   Seriously there is absolutely nothing wrong with Smalltall being unpopular, 99.9999% of languages out there are 1000 times more unpopular than smalltalk and they are still being used some of them even on a daily basis. Languages are tools, not instruments of world domination.   We are lucky enough to live in the age of tons of programming tool and approaches. Amber and Pharo have their own place in this Universe of tools.   And as you said, embrace what we have , be glad for the effort of people like Herby's that he invests hard work to make tools like Amber relevant and useful and from there on its just a matter of making interfacing with other tools easier and simpler.   On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 10:48 AM <a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">ph...@... <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">ph...@...> wrote:

"<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">ph...@..." <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">ph...@...>: Dec 04 10:00AM +0100 Ah, thx :-)   Yeah, thanks HerbySk!   Learned a lot from your code and toolchain Herby. Heck, even made me want to dig deeper into JS. Hah, another rabbit hole I am down into.   Yes, it is like 1980 (8-bit era) all over again, with variety, and mind blowing new stuff.   I kind of like that. This has renewed my sense of wonder! No need to feel overwhelmed. I am just feeling grateful and happy with all of that great stuff popping up all over.   Just look at the Pi Zero... That's a nice home for a Pharo image or two :-)   Phil   On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 9:54 AM, Dimitris Chloupis <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="hAEnIkruBgAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick="this.href=&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">kilon...@...> wrote:

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