Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

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Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

Clément Bera-4



2014-07-31 12:05 GMT+02:00 Helge Nowak <[hidden email]>:
Dear Pharoers,
 
I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things:
  1. Pharo is NOT Smalltalk
  2. All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future
  3. The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth

I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it.

Well, I tried to open a smalltalk-80 image recently and it didn't work on the Pharo VM. 
In addition, it seems that recent Pharo images cannot run on the Xerox-D microcoded machines.

So I think clearly Pharo is not Smalltalk for obvious backward compatibility issues.

I love mails about this topic it really makes my day each time :-).

Clement
 
Cheers
Helge


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Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

Marcus Denker-4

On 31 Jul 2014, at 12:05, Helge Nowak <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Pharoers,
 
I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things:
  1. Pharo is NOT Smalltalk
  2. All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future
  3. The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth

I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it.
 

The whole thing started by the fact that there are lots of great things to do that Smalltalk did not yet do. (That are 100% in line with the *idea* of Smalltalk, and that
are very natural and clearly the next step).

But if we say that we are Smalltalk, then people will immediately request 100% compatibility forever.

We actually had exactly that case. Someone told us that for *every* change we need to first sync with all Smalltalk Vendors and all other open source
Smalltalks and only of they are ok (and implement the same at the same time) we are allowed to e.g. add a new API in Pharo core classes.
Reason: “Pharo is Smalltalk, it says right so on the website”.

So Pharo is Smalltalk in the sense of being a reflective, dynamic, always improving environment. It is *not* Smalltalk in the sense of a finished, non-changing artefact.

Marcus

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Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

Marcus Denker-4
In reply to this post by Clément Bera-4

On 31 Jul 2014, at 13:09, Helge Nowak <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Johan,

I think there is a common understanding of what Smalltalk is and what is not: Ruby, Java and many others ARE Smalltalk inspired. Up to now I considered all Smalltalks that carry that term and also Squeak and the Pharo fork as "true" Smalltalks.

Squeak definitly never had that goal. When I discovered it it was explicitly stated that is was “Work in progress based on Smalltalk 80 with which it is still reasonably compatible”. 

By Doru's words he considers Pharo more in the "inspired, non-Smalltalk" corner. That is ok, yet has consequences.

Yes, the freedom to do things that are not in all the other Smalltalks already. Not because these are “not Smalltalk”, only because they where not there in the past, even though maybe they
should have.

Marcus

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Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Clément Bera-4
What are the actions that you make today to offer yourself a future is more interesting. No?

I have students and I prefer that they find a job in “Smalltalk” than in Javascript but you can continue to talk about such important question…
Sorry I do not have the time.

BTW you can have a look at my 2009 Smalltalk presentation because Pharo is to reinvent Smalltalk….


Dear Pharoers,
 
I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things:
  1. Pharo is NOT Smalltalk
  2. All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future
  3. The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth

I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it.
 
Cheers
Helge

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Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

Tudor Girba-2
In reply to this post by Clément Bera-4
Hi,

The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org webpage.

This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo:

You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time.

Cheers,
Doru





Cheers,
Doru




On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Helge Nowak <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Pharoers,
 
I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things:
  1. Pharo is NOT Smalltalk
  2. All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future
  3. The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth

I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it.
 
Cheers
Helge


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Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

Stéphane Ducasse
+1

Hi,

The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org webpage.

This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo:

You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time.

Cheers,
Doru

And this is not like we did not announce it since 2008 :)

Stef



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Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Clément Bera-4
***THANKS*** for your great words.
Indeed I have three boys and I expect them to be smarter and better than me (without having to kill me :)).


some people forget that around the corner we have Javascript, Lua, Python, ruby and scala, dart…..and many others
and such battles are far more important. 

Stef

On 31 Jul 2014, at 18:10, Richard Sargent <[hidden email]> wrote:

In my opinion, this entire thread is based on an "argument from a false premise".


"Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired."

My son is not me. He is inspired by me. 

Why would I want him to be "just like me"? My ambition is that he will be better than me. 

He has grown and left home. Does that mean he has divorced me? 

He doesn't want to be a programmer. Is that a bad thing? 


I feel like a family friend, watching a child grow into an adult. There is a sense of pride - vicarious - in watching Pharo's growth. The is a sense of anticipation of what Pharo's future will be.


Am I concerned that this child will repudiate beliefs and behaviours I hold dear? Not in the least! It comes from good stock and it's being raised by a good and caring family. 


Go, Pharo! Fly! Show us what you can be. 

-----------------
Can we stop discussing "When did you stop beating your wife?" and resume discussing what Pharo should be (or become)?



-------- Original message --------
From: Helge Nowak
Date:2014/07/31 08:29 (GMT-08:00)
To: Tudor Girba
Cc: ESUG ,[hidden email],[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

Dear Stef and Doru,

what Doru is saying seems contradictory to what Stef does (or I do not understand one, or the both of you correctly):

Doru says: "Pharo is not Smalltalk. Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired."

Whereas Stef says "Pharo is to reinvent Smalltalk" and "I prefer that my students find a job in “Smalltalk”". From which I take that Stef sees himself and Pharo as part of the Smalltalk community. Something I had hoped to hear ;-)

I am with Kent Pitman: "Smalltalk" is not technically defined but by the (sub-)communities and their values. The development of Smalltalk will never stop, each dialect may take its own path yet it will stay "Smalltalk" regardless of what you name it. Only if one thinks that being part of the Smalltalk community doesn't serve him/her well he/she will leave it. I don't see how Pharo and its community did a departure from the Smalltalk values and its overall community. And I hope this will stay that way.

Cheers
Helge

Von: Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>
An: Helge Nowak <[hidden email]>
CC: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>; ESUG <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: 17:05 Donnerstag, 31.Juli 2014
Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

Hi,

The official Pharo statement is clearly stated on the http://pharo.org/ webpage.

This topic has been (re)discussed recently spawned by my original post on Pharo is Pharo:

You can choose to see in my words what you wish. I will choose to not fight it. I did it before and it lead nowhere. I will only state that we clearly want to position Pharo to build a future that we do not know at this point in time.

Cheers,
Doru





Cheers,
Doru




On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Helge Nowak <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Pharoers,
 
I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things:
  1. Pharo is NOT Smalltalk
  2. All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future
  3. The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth

I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it.
 
Cheers
Helge


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[hidden email]
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org




--

"Every thing has its own flow"


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Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

Nowak, Helge
In reply to this post by Clément Bera-4

:-)

 

Von: Esug-list [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Davorin Rusevljan
Gesendet: Freitag, 1. August 2014 14:16
An: Helge Nowak
Cc: ESUG; [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] "Pharo is Smalltalk inspired"

 

On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Helge Nowak <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Pharoers,

 

I stumbled upon Doru’s (BTW excellent, as usual) presentation on Live Objects at NDC 2014. In there he states “Pharo is Smalltalk inspired. … we want to point ourselves that we are Smalltalk inspired because we want to move towards the future”. This implies three things:

  1. Pharo is NOT Smalltalk
  1. All Smalltalks are not moving towards the future
  1. The Pharo community wants to get divorced from the community that gave them birth

 

I am wondering whether this is indeed the official position of the Pharo community? And how the Smalltalkers think about it.

 

Cheers

Helge

 

 

For me, Pharo is very nice Smalltalk dialect,  and "Pharo is not Smalltalk", is just marketing speak for me. As I try to valuate things accordingly to what they are and not marketing, I can live quite nice with "Pharo is not Smalltalk", since,  as I said I like Pharo Smalltalk pretty much.

 

Thanks guys for hard work!

 

Davorin Ruševljan

 

 


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