Re: Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2

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Re: Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2

Trygve Reenskaug
Hi Chris,
I'm sorry to say that your advice didn't work. Worse: The Squeak community has lost a valuable contributor, a prime mover in the patterns and agile communities and the author of several books on OO. My friend wrote:
" I still can’t find a version of Squeak for my Mac that will run Trygve’s current BabyIDE. At this point, even if one appears, it is obvious that my dependence on “the introvert Squeak community” will put me in a much more fragile position than with any of my other concept proofs. It will be extremely difficult to build a future on such fragile foundations."

I came to Xerox PARC and Smalltalk in 1978 where I made my contributions to Smalltalk-80. Since then, I have been working almost exclusively with Smalltalk. My company invested in a VW class library of more than 100,000 lines of Smalltalk code and used it in our consulting. A strong selling point was that our tenders were accompanied by a demo version of the program we offered to deliver. Our library and applications were repeatedly threatened by new versions of VW. The code is now dead; there is no VM that will run our old images. The investment is lost.

I hoped Squeak would be better. It isn't. Squeak is less stable than VW ever was. My new programming paradigm, DCI, is supported by BabyIDE that runs under Squeak 3.10. I have ported BabyIDE to 4.5, but there are new bugs caused by differences between 3.10 and 4.5. The result is that I have reverted to 3.10 because it's too much hassle to run after the stream of Squeak releases. I thought Pharo would be better, but their mailing list conversations indicate that they do not understand that developers need a stable foundation for their work.

The result is that I too leave Smalltalk and concentrate on other environments. A pity, because I still believe Smalltalk has the potential to become a superior environment for non-professional programmers. I am particularly thinking of children and experts such as computational chemists who use computers in their work.

It's very painful, but I am now terminating development work in Squeak leave the Squeak and Pharo mailing lists. I will continue my work in  some mainstream language. I have just done some work in Java with Netbeans and I am buying a book on JavaScript. It's heavy going, but better that working for the dustbin.

Cheers
--Trygve


On 31.05.2015 16:52, Trygve Reenskaug  wrote:
Hi,
A friend of mine is doing some experiments using a Mac and my program Baby IDE.  BabyIDE is works under Squeak 3.10.2. Is there a binary virtual machine for a current Mac that he can use?

On 31.05.2015 17:00, Chris Cunnington wrote:
You need a non-Cog vm. I usually download any Etoys vm. [1]
From there, drag it onto the vm or right click, choose “Open With” and choose Etoys. 

Chris 



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Re: Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2

David T. Lewis
Hi Trygve,

Did you see my earlier reply suggesting that you use the VM at
http://www.squeakvm.org/~lewis/MacOS-test-Javier/ ? I believe that I sent
it directly to your personal email address, but I don't know if you
received it.

The newer Cog VMs used in Squeak all-in-one and Pharo will not work with a
Squeak 3.10 image, but any of the traditional context interpreter VMs
(including this recently built VM provided by Javier Diaz-Reinoso) should
be fine.

A bit off topic from your orginal question, but I would also encourage you
to take a look at http://try.squeak.org/ as a source of inspiration. This
is Bert Freudenberg's remarkable SqueakJS running in a web browser, and it
might prove quite suitable for certain kinds of software demos where you
want a run-anywhere capability.

You should be able to drag and drop your BabyIDE image onto that web page,
and run it directly in your your web browser with no need to install a VM
at all.

HTH,
Dave

> Hi Chris,
> I'm sorry to say that your advice didn't work. Worse: The Squeak
> community has lost a valuable contributor, a prime mover in the patterns
> and agile communities and the author of several books on OO. My friend
> wrote:
> " /I still can’t find a version of Squeak for my Mac that will run
> Trygve’s current BabyIDE. At this point, even if one appears, it is
> obvious that my dependence on “the introvert Squeak community” will
> put
> me in a much more fragile position than with any of my other concept
> proofs. It will be extremely difficult to build a future on such fragile
> foundations./"
>
> I came to Xerox PARC and Smalltalk in 1978 where I made my contributions
> to Smalltalk-80. Since then, I have been working almost exclusively with
> Smalltalk. My company invested in a VW class library of more than
> 100,000 lines of Smalltalk code and used it in our consulting. A strong
> selling point was that our tenders were accompanied by a demo version of
> the program we offered to deliver. Our library and applications were
> repeatedly threatened by new versions of VW. The code is now dead; there
> is no VM that will run our old images. The investment is lost.
>
> I hoped Squeak would be better. It isn't. Squeak is less stable than VW
> ever was. My new programming paradigm, DCI, is supported by BabyIDE that
> runs under Squeak 3.10. I have ported BabyIDE to 4.5, but there are new
> bugs caused by differences between 3.10 and 4.5. The result is that I
> have reverted to 3.10 because it's too much hassle to run after the
> stream of Squeak releases. I thought Pharo would be better, but their
> mailing list conversations indicate that they do not understand that
> developers need a stable foundation for their work.
>
> The result is that I too leave Smalltalk and concentrate on other
> environments. A pity, because I still believe Smalltalk has the
> potential to become a superior environment for non-professional
> programmers. I am particularly thinking of children and experts such as
> computational chemists who use computers in their work.
>
> It's very painful, but I am now terminating development work in Squeak
> leave the Squeak and Pharo mailing lists. I will continue my work in
> some mainstream language. I have just done some work in Java with
> Netbeans and I am buying a book on JavaScript. It's heavy going, but
> better that working for the dustbin.
>
> Cheers
> --Trygve
>
>
> On 31.05.2015 16:52, Trygve Reenskaug  wrote:
> Hi,
> A friend of mine is doing some experiments using a Mac and my program
> Baby IDE.  BabyIDE is works under Squeak 3.10.2. Is there a binary
> virtual machine for a current Mac that he can use?
>
> On 31.05.2015 17:00, Chris Cunnington wrote:
>> You need a non-Cog vm. I usually download any Etoys vm. [1]
>> From there, drag it onto the vm or right click, choose “Open With”
>> and
>> choose Etoys.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> [1] http://squeakland.org/download/
>
>



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Re: Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2

Chris Cunnington-4
In reply to this post by Trygve Reenskaug
I’ll look at this in two parts. The initial question was about running a 3.10.2 image. I’ll address that here. [1] 

I know how you feel. For sure. But I think you assessment is a bit harsh. I mean, 3.10 came out ten years ago and this too small a community to support something so old. (Though I have heard the Windows vm.s are better for backward compatibility.) 

Squeak and Pharo are better than open source Smalltalk was ten years ago. By far. No question. What’s missing is an application to publicize that a bit the way Seaside did. 

For what it’s worth, Sam Adams at IBM has been doing interesting work about deterministic programming with a stripped down, MVC only Squeak. Actually, he uses lots of  of them. I think they talk to each other and such. [2] 

I can admit that people in the Smalltalk communities can be unpleasant. I was amazed and liberated that you were insulted by a member of this community. I thought to myself “If the father of MVC is not shown respect here then how smart do I have to be? Who is safe?” The answer is no one. That was unfortunate. 

And now you’ve been embarrassed for recommending Squeak to a friend and they’ve baulked. 

But you, in your heart of heart don’t believe Squeak or Pharo is headed for the dustbin. Nor do you really want to leave us behind. If you did you wouldn’t be telling me. 

You need to either port your app to a current Squeak/Pharo or find a vm that works. You’re Trygve Reenskaug. Don’t let the people here forget it. I can assure you that there is a deep sense of embarrassment for how you were treated here before. I consider it likely people will respond more readily to help you. I mean, who invented MVC here? 

Chris 


[1] Download a 3.10 from http://ftp.squeak.org. Try to open it with a Cog vm. Doesn’t work. Go to http://www.squeakland.org/download vm and it works for me. You need an interpreter vm. In fact, a person asked a question about such a vm on Mac yesterday. If you go here http://squeakvm.org/mac/ and download the Squeak 4.2.5beta1U it should work as well. I just tested these on an OS X 10.10.3 




On Jun 9, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Trygve Reenskaug <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Chris,
I'm sorry to say that your advice didn't work. Worse: The Squeak community has lost a valuable contributor, a prime mover in the patterns and agile communities and the author of several books on OO. My friend wrote:
" I still can’t find a version of Squeak for my Mac that will run Trygve’s current BabyIDE. At this point, even if one appears, it is obvious that my dependence on “the introvert Squeak community” will put me in a much more fragile position than with any of my other concept proofs. It will be extremely difficult to build a future on such fragile foundations."

I came to Xerox PARC and Smalltalk in 1978 where I made my contributions to Smalltalk-80. Since then, I have been working almost exclusively with Smalltalk. My company invested in a VW class library of more than 100,000 lines of Smalltalk code and used it in our consulting. A strong selling point was that our tenders were accompanied by a demo version of the program we offered to deliver. Our library and applications were repeatedly threatened by new versions of VW. The code is now dead; there is no VM that will run our old images. The investment is lost.

I hoped Squeak would be better. It isn't. Squeak is less stable than VW ever was. My new programming paradigm, DCI, is supported by BabyIDE that runs under Squeak 3.10. I have ported BabyIDE to 4.5, but there are new bugs caused by differences between 3.10 and 4.5. The result is that I have reverted to 3.10 because it's too much hassle to run after the stream of Squeak releases. I thought Pharo would be better, but their mailing list conversations indicate that they do not understand that developers need a stable foundation for their work.

The result is that I too leave Smalltalk and concentrate on other environments. A pity, because I still believe Smalltalk has the potential to become a superior environment for non-professional programmers. I am particularly thinking of children and experts such as computational chemists who use computers in their work.

It's very painful, but I am now terminating development work in Squeak leave the Squeak and Pharo mailing lists. I will continue my work in  some mainstream language. I have just done some work in Java with Netbeans and I am buying a book on JavaScript. It's heavy going, but better that working for the dustbin.

Cheers
--Trygve


On 31.05.2015 16:52, Trygve Reenskaug  wrote:
Hi,
A friend of mine is doing some experiments using a Mac and my program Baby IDE.  BabyIDE is works under Squeak 3.10.2. Is there a binary virtual machine for a current Mac that he can use?

On 31.05.2015 17:00, Chris Cunnington wrote:
You need a non-Cog vm. I usually download any Etoys vm. [1]
From there, drag it onto the vm or right click, choose “Open With” and choose Etoys. 

Chris 




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Re: Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2

Javier Diaz-Reinoso
In reply to this post by David T. Lewis
I download BabyIDE-1-2011.12.ZIP from http://folk.uio.no/trygver/themes/babyide/babyide-index.html and appears to run without problems using the VM I compiled, I think we need more details about what is the problem.

My machine is a MacBook with 10.10.3, I also tested in an old mac mini PowerPC with 10.5.8 using the same VM and also works OK.

On Jun 9, 2015, at 11:49, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Trygve,

Did you see my earlier reply suggesting that you use the VM at
http://www.squeakvm.org/~lewis/MacOS-test-Javier/ ? I believe that I sent
it directly to your personal email address, but I don't know if you
received it.

The newer Cog VMs used in Squeak all-in-one and Pharo will not work with a
Squeak 3.10 image, but any of the traditional context interpreter VMs
(including this recently built VM provided by Javier Diaz-Reinoso) should
be fine.

A bit off topic from your orginal question, but I would also encourage you
to take a look at http://try.squeak.org/ as a source of inspiration. This
is Bert Freudenberg's remarkable SqueakJS running in a web browser, and it
might prove quite suitable for certain kinds of software demos where you
want a run-anywhere capability.

You should be able to drag and drop your BabyIDE image onto that web page,
and run it directly in your your web browser with no need to install a VM
at all.

HTH,
Dave

Hi Chris,
I'm sorry to say that your advice didn't work. Worse: The Squeak
community has lost a valuable contributor, a prime mover in the patterns
and agile communities and the author of several books on OO. My friend
wrote:
" /I still can’t find a version of Squeak for my Mac that will run
Trygve’s current BabyIDE. At this point, even if one appears, it is
obvious that my dependence on “the introvert Squeak community” will
put
me in a much more fragile position than with any of my other concept
proofs. It will be extremely difficult to build a future on such fragile
foundations./"

I came to Xerox PARC and Smalltalk in 1978 where I made my contributions
to Smalltalk-80. Since then, I have been working almost exclusively with
Smalltalk. My company invested in a VW class library of more than
100,000 lines of Smalltalk code and used it in our consulting. A strong
selling point was that our tenders were accompanied by a demo version of
the program we offered to deliver. Our library and applications were
repeatedly threatened by new versions of VW. The code is now dead; there
is no VM that will run our old images. The investment is lost.

I hoped Squeak would be better. It isn't. Squeak is less stable than VW
ever was. My new programming paradigm, DCI, is supported by BabyIDE that
runs under Squeak 3.10. I have ported BabyIDE to 4.5, but there are new
bugs caused by differences between 3.10 and 4.5. The result is that I
have reverted to 3.10 because it's too much hassle to run after the
stream of Squeak releases. I thought Pharo would be better, but their
mailing list conversations indicate that they do not understand that
developers need a stable foundation for their work.

The result is that I too leave Smalltalk and concentrate on other
environments. A pity, because I still believe Smalltalk has the
potential to become a superior environment for non-professional
programmers. I am particularly thinking of children and experts such as
computational chemists who use computers in their work.

It's very painful, but I am now terminating development work in Squeak
leave the Squeak and Pharo mailing lists. I will continue my work in
some mainstream language. I have just done some work in Java with
Netbeans and I am buying a book on JavaScript. It's heavy going, but
better that working for the dustbin.

Cheers
--Trygve


On 31.05.2015 16:52, Trygve Reenskaug  wrote:
Hi,
A friend of mine is doing some experiments using a Mac and my program
Baby IDE.  BabyIDE is works under Squeak 3.10.2. Is there a binary
virtual machine for a current Mac that he can use?

On 31.05.2015 17:00, Chris Cunnington wrote:
You need a non-Cog vm. I usually download any Etoys vm. [1]
From there, drag it onto the vm or right click, choose “Open With”
and
choose Etoys.

Chris

[1] http://squeakland.org/download/








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Re: Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2

Levente Uzonyi-2
In reply to this post by Trygve Reenskaug
I suspect that your friend has become a victim of apple's "BinaryXYZ.app
is damaged and can't be opened" error message.

Levente

On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, Trygve Reenskaug wrote:

> Hi Chris,
> I'm sorry to say that your advice didn't work. Worse: The Squeak community has lost a valuable contributor, a prime mover in the patterns and agile communities and the author of several books on OO. My friend
> wrote:
> " I still can’t find a version of Squeak for my Mac that will run Trygve’s current BabyIDE. At this point, even if one appears, it is obvious that my dependence on “the introvert Squeak community” will put me
> in a much more fragile position than with any of my other concept proofs. It will be extremely difficult to build a future on such fragile foundations."
>
> I came to Xerox PARC and Smalltalk in 1978 where I made my contributions to Smalltalk-80. Since then, I have been working almost exclusively with Smalltalk. My company invested in a VW class library of more
> than 100,000 lines of Smalltalk code and used it in our consulting. A strong selling point was that our tenders were accompanied by a demo version of the program we offered to deliver. Our library and
> applications were repeatedly threatened by new versions of VW. The code is now dead; there is no VM that will run our old images. The investment is lost.
>
> I hoped Squeak would be better. It isn't. Squeak is less stable than VW ever was. My new programming paradigm, DCI, is supported by BabyIDE that runs under Squeak 3.10. I have ported BabyIDE to 4.5, but there
> are new bugs caused by differences between 3.10 and 4.5. The result is that I have reverted to 3.10 because it's too much hassle to run after the stream of Squeak releases. I thought Pharo would be better,
> but their mailing list conversations indicate that they do not understand that developers need a stable foundation for their work.
>
> The result is that I too leave Smalltalk and concentrate on other environments. A pity, because I still believe Smalltalk has the potential to become a superior environment for non-professional programmers. I
> am particularly thinking of children and experts such as computational chemists who use computers in their work.
>
> It's very painful, but I am now terminating development work in Squeak leave the Squeak and Pharo mailing lists. I will continue my work in  some mainstream language. I have just done some work in Java with
> Netbeans and I am buying a book on JavaScript. It's heavy going, but better that working for the dustbin.
>
> Cheers
> --Trygve
>
>
> On 31.05.2015 16:52, Trygve Reenskaug  wrote:
> Hi,
> A friend of mine is doing some experiments using a Mac and my program Baby IDE.  BabyIDE is works under Squeak 3.10.2. Is there a binary virtual machine for a current Mac that he can use?
>
> On 31.05.2015 17:00, Chris Cunnington wrote:
>       You need a non-Cog vm. I usually download any Etoys vm. [1] From there, drag it onto the vm or right click, choose “Open With” and choose Etoys. 
>
> Chris 
>
> [1] http://squeakland.org/download/
>
>
>

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Re: Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2

Edgar J. De Cleene-3
In reply to this post by Trygve Reenskaug

I believe it have BabyIDE and work with Cog

I advice you join to Cuis list .
I don’t know if BabyIDE could be ported or not to Cuis, but sure you have a lot a friendlier Smalltalkers which could help.

I have a Squeak4.6 version of FunSqueak, try to have BabyIDE , if have success put the complete .zip (.image .sources. .changes and Cog VM tested on Mac)

Any help you need, email me directly.

Edgar

De: Trygve Reenskaug <[hidden email]>
Responder a: The general-purpose Squeak developers list <[hidden email]>
Fecha: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 18:07:21 +0200
Para: Chris Cunnington <[hidden email]>
CC: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>, The general-purpose Squeak developers list <[hidden email]>
Asunto: [squeak-dev] Re: Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2

Hi Chris,
I'm sorry to say that your advice didn't work. Worse: The Squeak community has lost a valuable contributor, a prime mover in the patterns and agile communities and the author of several books on OO. My friend wrote:
" I still can’t find a version of Squeak for my Mac that will run Trygve’s current BabyIDE. At this point, even if one appears, it is obvious that my dependence on “the introvert Squeak community” will put me in a much more fragile position than with any of my other concept proofs. It will be extremely difficult to build a future on such fragile foundations."

I came to Xerox PARC and Smalltalk in 1978 where I made my contributions to Smalltalk-80. Since then, I have been working almost exclusively with Smalltalk. My company invested in a VW class library of more than 100,000 lines of Smalltalk code and used it in our consulting. A strong selling point was that our tenders were accompanied by a demo version of the program we offered to deliver. Our library and applications were repeatedly threatened by new versions of VW. The code is now dead; there is no VM that will run our old images. The investment is lost.

I hoped Squeak would be better. It isn't. Squeak is less stable than VW ever was. My new programming paradigm, DCI, is supported by BabyIDE that runs under Squeak 3.10. I have ported BabyIDE to 4.5, but there are new bugs caused by differences between 3.10 and 4.5. The result is that I have reverted to 3.10 because it's too much hassle to run after the stream of Squeak releases. I thought Pharo would be better, but their mailing list conversations indicate that they do not understand that developers need a stable foundation for their work.

The result is that I too leave Smalltalk and concentrate on other environments. A pity, because I still believe Smalltalk has the potential to become a superior environment for non-professional programmers. I am particularly thinking of children and experts such as computational chemists who use computers in their work.

It's very painful, but I am now terminating development work in Squeak leave the Squeak and Pharo mailing lists. I will continue my work in  some mainstream language. I have just done some work in Java with Netbeans and I am buying a book on JavaScript. It's heavy going, but better that working for the dustbin.

Cheers
--Trygve


On 31.05.2015 16:52, Trygve Reenskaug  wrote:
Hi,
A friend of mine is doing some experiments using a Mac and my program Baby IDE.  BabyIDE is works under Squeak 3.10.2. Is there a binary virtual machine for a current Mac that he can use?

On 31.05.2015 17:00, Chris Cunnington wrote:
You need a non-Cog vm. I usually download any Etoys vm. [1]
From there, drag it onto the vm or right click, choose “Open With” and choose Etoys. 

Chris 



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[ANN] FunSqueak4dot6"Norge" (Was Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2

Edgar J. De Cleene-3
In reply to this post by Trygve Reenskaug
Trygve
Here

You have a 4.6 version with your BabyIDE into.
Also have lots of things

I decide named it Norge, for obvious reasons.
And you and your friends are welcomed for any questions.

Edgar

De: Trygve Reenskaug <[hidden email]>
Responder a: The general-purpose Squeak developers list <[hidden email]>
Fecha: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 18:07:21 +0200
Para: Chris Cunnington <[hidden email]>
CC: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>, The general-purpose Squeak developers list <[hidden email]>
Asunto: [squeak-dev] Re: Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2

Hi Chris,
I'm sorry to say that your advice didn't work. Worse: The Squeak community has lost a valuable contributor, a prime mover in the patterns and agile communities and the author of several books on OO. My friend wrote:
" I still can’t find a version of Squeak for my Mac that will run Trygve’s current BabyIDE. At this point, even if one appears, it is obvious that my dependence on “the introvert Squeak community” will put me in a much more fragile position than with any of my other concept proofs. It will be extremely difficult to build a future on such fragile foundations."

I came to Xerox PARC and Smalltalk in 1978 where I made my contributions to Smalltalk-80. Since then, I have been working almost exclusively with Smalltalk. My company invested in a VW class library of more than 100,000 lines of Smalltalk code and used it in our consulting. A strong selling point was that our tenders were accompanied by a demo version of the program we offered to deliver. Our library and applications were repeatedly threatened by new versions of VW. The code is now dead; there is no VM that will run our old images. The investment is lost.

I hoped Squeak would be better. It isn't. Squeak is less stable than VW ever was. My new programming paradigm, DCI, is supported by BabyIDE that runs under Squeak 3.10. I have ported BabyIDE to 4.5, but there are new bugs caused by differences between 3.10 and 4.5. The result is that I have reverted to 3.10 because it's too much hassle to run after the stream of Squeak releases. I thought Pharo would be better, but their mailing list conversations indicate that they do not understand that developers need a stable foundation for their work.

The result is that I too leave Smalltalk and concentrate on other environments. A pity, because I still believe Smalltalk has the potential to become a superior environment for non-professional programmers. I am particularly thinking of children and experts such as computational chemists who use computers in their work.

It's very painful, but I am now terminating development work in Squeak leave the Squeak and Pharo mailing lists. I will continue my work in  some mainstream language. I have just done some work in Java with Netbeans and I am buying a book on JavaScript. It's heavy going, but better that working for the dustbin.

Cheers
--Trygve


On 31.05.2015 16:52, Trygve Reenskaug  wrote:
Hi,
A friend of mine is doing some experiments using a Mac and my program Baby IDE.  BabyIDE is works under Squeak 3.10.2. Is there a binary virtual machine for a current Mac that he can use?

On 31.05.2015 17:00, Chris Cunnington wrote:
You need a non-Cog vm. I usually download any Etoys vm. [1]
From there, drag it onto the vm or right click, choose “Open With” and choose Etoys. 

Chris 



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re: Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2 (for running BabyIDE)

ccrraaiigg
In reply to this post by David T. Lewis

Hi all--

     Dave writes to Trygve:

> You should be able to drag and drop your BabyIDE image onto
> [the SqueakJS demo page at http://try.squeak.org], and run it
> directly in your web browser with no need to install a VM at all.

     Indeed, I can run the BabyIDE image from [1] with SqueakJS. But I
too am very curious to know how Trygve and his colleague got on with
Javier's VM at [2].


     thanks,

-C

[1] http://folk.uio.no/trygver/themes/babyide/babyide-index.html
[2] http://www.squeakvm.org/~lewis/MacOS-test-Javier

--
Craig Latta
netjam.org
+31   6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
+ 1 415  287 3547 (no SMS)


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Re: Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2

Bert Freudenberg
In reply to this post by Levente Uzonyi-2
Quite possible, but it’s our fault for not signing it properly.

Also, I find it embarrassing that we are giving up compatibility so easily. It shouldn’t be impossible to ship a VM that can run all images thrown at it, at least from a user’s point of view.

- Bert -

On 09.06.2015, at 20:04, Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I suspect that your friend has become a victim of apple's "BinaryXYZ.app is damaged and can't be opened" error message.
>
> Levente
>
> On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, Trygve Reenskaug wrote:
>
>> Hi Chris,
>> I'm sorry to say that your advice didn't work. Worse: The Squeak community has lost a valuable contributor, a prime mover in the patterns and agile communities and the author of several books on OO. My friend
>> wrote:
>> " I still can’t find a version of Squeak for my Mac that will run Trygve’s current BabyIDE. At this point, even if one appears, it is obvious that my dependence on “the introvert Squeak community” will put me
>> in a much more fragile position than with any of my other concept proofs. It will be extremely difficult to build a future on such fragile foundations."
>> I came to Xerox PARC and Smalltalk in 1978 where I made my contributions to Smalltalk-80. Since then, I have been working almost exclusively with Smalltalk. My company invested in a VW class library of more
>> than 100,000 lines of Smalltalk code and used it in our consulting. A strong selling point was that our tenders were accompanied by a demo version of the program we offered to deliver. Our library and
>> applications were repeatedly threatened by new versions of VW. The code is now dead; there is no VM that will run our old images. The investment is lost.
>> I hoped Squeak would be better. It isn't. Squeak is less stable than VW ever was. My new programming paradigm, DCI, is supported by BabyIDE that runs under Squeak 3.10. I have ported BabyIDE to 4.5, but there
>> are new bugs caused by differences between 3.10 and 4.5. The result is that I have reverted to 3.10 because it's too much hassle to run after the stream of Squeak releases. I thought Pharo would be better,
>> but their mailing list conversations indicate that they do not understand that developers need a stable foundation for their work.
>> The result is that I too leave Smalltalk and concentrate on other environments. A pity, because I still believe Smalltalk has the potential to become a superior environment for non-professional programmers. I
>> am particularly thinking of children and experts such as computational chemists who use computers in their work.
>> It's very painful, but I am now terminating development work in Squeak leave the Squeak and Pharo mailing lists. I will continue my work in  some mainstream language. I have just done some work in Java with
>> Netbeans and I am buying a book on JavaScript. It's heavy going, but better that working for the dustbin.
>> Cheers
>> --Trygve
>> On 31.05.2015 16:52, Trygve Reenskaug  wrote:
>> Hi,
>> A friend of mine is doing some experiments using a Mac and my program Baby IDE.  BabyIDE is works under Squeak 3.10.2. Is there a binary virtual machine for a current Mac that he can use?
>> On 31.05.2015 17:00, Chris Cunnington wrote:
>>      You need a non-Cog vm. I usually download any Etoys vm. [1] From there, drag it onto the vm or right click, choose “Open With” and choose Etoys.
>> Chris
>> [1] http://squeakland.org/download/
>




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Re: Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2

Levente Uzonyi-2
IIRC Eliot stated that a single VM couldn't be efficient. But we have
scripts which can choose the right VM. What we need is a "VM pack" which
contains multiple VMs for the platform.

Levente

On Thu, 11 Jun 2015, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

> Quite possible, but it’s our fault for not signing it properly.
>
> Also, I find it embarrassing that we are giving up compatibility so easily. It shouldn’t be impossible to ship a VM that can run all images thrown at it, at least from a user’s point of view.
>
> - Bert -
>
> On 09.06.2015, at 20:04, Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I suspect that your friend has become a victim of apple's "BinaryXYZ.app is damaged and can't be opened" error message.
>>
>> Levente
>>
>> On Tue, 9 Jun 2015, Trygve Reenskaug wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Chris,
>>> I'm sorry to say that your advice didn't work. Worse: The Squeak community has lost a valuable contributor, a prime mover in the patterns and agile communities and the author of several books on OO. My friend
>>> wrote:
>>> " I still can’t find a version of Squeak for my Mac that will run Trygve’s current BabyIDE. At this point, even if one appears, it is obvious that my dependence on “the introvert Squeak community” will put me
>>> in a much more fragile position than with any of my other concept proofs. It will be extremely difficult to build a future on such fragile foundations."
>>> I came to Xerox PARC and Smalltalk in 1978 where I made my contributions to Smalltalk-80. Since then, I have been working almost exclusively with Smalltalk. My company invested in a VW class library of more
>>> than 100,000 lines of Smalltalk code and used it in our consulting. A strong selling point was that our tenders were accompanied by a demo version of the program we offered to deliver. Our library and
>>> applications were repeatedly threatened by new versions of VW. The code is now dead; there is no VM that will run our old images. The investment is lost.
>>> I hoped Squeak would be better. It isn't. Squeak is less stable than VW ever was. My new programming paradigm, DCI, is supported by BabyIDE that runs under Squeak 3.10. I have ported BabyIDE to 4.5, but there
>>> are new bugs caused by differences between 3.10 and 4.5. The result is that I have reverted to 3.10 because it's too much hassle to run after the stream of Squeak releases. I thought Pharo would be better,
>>> but their mailing list conversations indicate that they do not understand that developers need a stable foundation for their work.
>>> The result is that I too leave Smalltalk and concentrate on other environments. A pity, because I still believe Smalltalk has the potential to become a superior environment for non-professional programmers. I
>>> am particularly thinking of children and experts such as computational chemists who use computers in their work.
>>> It's very painful, but I am now terminating development work in Squeak leave the Squeak and Pharo mailing lists. I will continue my work in  some mainstream language. I have just done some work in Java with
>>> Netbeans and I am buying a book on JavaScript. It's heavy going, but better that working for the dustbin.
>>> Cheers
>>> --Trygve
>>> On 31.05.2015 16:52, Trygve Reenskaug  wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> A friend of mine is doing some experiments using a Mac and my program Baby IDE.  BabyIDE is works under Squeak 3.10.2. Is there a binary virtual machine for a current Mac that he can use?
>>> On 31.05.2015 17:00, Chris Cunnington wrote:
>>>      You need a non-Cog vm. I usually download any Etoys vm. [1] From there, drag it onto the vm or right click, choose “Open With” and choose Etoys.
>>> Chris
>>> [1] http://squeakland.org/download/
>>
>
>
>

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Re: Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2

timrowledge

On 11-06-2015, at 8:33 AM, Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> IIRC Eliot stated that a single VM couldn't be efficient. But we have scripts which can choose the right VM. What we need is a "VM pack" which contains multiple VMs for the platform.

… and just the other day Dave posted his shell script that does the image testing and chooses the appropriate vm.

The practical issue is the effort involved in maintaining old code in the face of changing OS releases etc. There’s only so many people with so much (or usually, so little) time.


tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Fractured Idiom:- L'ETAT, C'EST MOE - All the world's a stooge



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Re: Mac Squeak binary virtual machine for Squeak 3.10.2

Bert Freudenberg
On 11.06.2015, at 17:53, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On 11-06-2015, at 8:33 AM, Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> IIRC Eliot stated that a single VM couldn't be efficient. But we have scripts which can choose the right VM. What we need is a "VM pack" which contains multiple VMs for the platform.

Which is why I wrote “from a user’s point of view”. If we can’t have a single VM we need to ship multiple.

> … and just the other day Dave posted his shell script that does the image testing and chooses the appropriate vm.

Yep. unix is simple, although we still need to deploy it (and ideally have a single source tarball that builds all the VMs). But we also need to find a solution for Win and Mac.

> The practical issue is the effort involved in maintaining old code in the face of changing OS releases etc. There’s only so many people with so much (or usually, so little) time.

I know :(

- Bert -




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