Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
21 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

dabrowsa@indiana.edu
Thanks again, Edgar.

But doesn't the constructorString output omit the scripts associated
with the buttons and textMorphs?

Would I be correct in thinking that real Squeak developers must not use
the interactive gui-building tools in Squeak because those tools don't
produce results that can be easily packaged?


>
>
>
> El 4/1/07 3:16 PM, "Andrew Dabrowski" <[hidden email]> escribió:
>
>> Thanks for your reply to my last message.  Now I have a follow-up
>> question.
>>
>> If I want to save my project as a .cs file, then I will have to convert
>> my gui window (just a systemWindow with some buttons and textMorphs)
>> into a proper class that shows up in the browser, correct?  That is, my
>> window was not coded, but put together interactively by dragging
>> supplies out and using the viewer to attach scripts.  Is there a way to
>> convert the final product into a code format that can be exported in the
>> .cs file?
>>
>> In VisualWorks (which I am also looking at but have not worked with at
>> all) there seems to be a way to do this: the InstallOnClass utility.  Is
>> there something comparable in Squeak?
>
> Exist a kind of Morph to code, what sometimes lets you export code only.
>
> Drag and drop the attached morph into your Squeak.
>
> Open a Transcript whit World menu or via flaps.
>
> Via halo, open a Inspector of the morph.
> In lower pane type :
> Transcript show: self constructorString  "for seeing what is the code of the
> morph."
>
> You should give:
> (((AlignmentMorph newBounds: (0@822 corner: 597@848) color: Color
> transparent) setBorderWidth: 1 borderColor: Color black)
>     addAllMorphs: ((Array new: 7)
>     at: 1 put: (((SimpleButtonMorph newBounds: (2@824 corner: 76@846) color:
> Color green) setBorderWidth: 1 borderColor: (Color r: 0.36 g: 0.719 b:
> 0.541))
>         addAllMorphs: (Array
>         with: ((StringMorph newBounds: (6@828 corner: 73@843) color: Color
> black) contents: 'workspace')));
>     at: 2 put: (((SimpleButtonMorph newBounds: (76@824 corner: 146@846)
> color: Color yellow) setBorderWidth: 1 borderColor: (Color r: 0.36 g: 0.719
> b: 0.541))
>         addAllMorphs: (Array
>         with: ((StringMorph newBounds: (80@828 corner: 143@843) color: Color
> black) contents: 'transcript')));
>     at: 3 put: (((SimpleButtonMorph newBounds: (146@824 corner: 205@846)
> color: Color orange) setBorderWidth: 1 borderColor: (Color r: 0.36 g: 0.719
> b: 0.541))
>         addAllMorphs: (Array
>         with: ((StringMorph newBounds: (149@828 corner: 201@843) color:
> Color black) contents: 'browser')));
>     at: 4 put: (((SimpleButtonMorph newBounds: (205@824 corner: 332@846)
> color: Color red) setBorderWidth: 1 borderColor: (Color r: 0.36 g: 0.719 b:
> 0.541))
>         addAllMorphs: (Array
>         with: ((StringMorph newBounds: (208@828 corner: 328@843) color:
> Color black) contents: 'dual change sorter')));
>     at: 5 put: (((SimpleButtonMorph newBounds: (332@824 corner: 385@846)
> color: (Color r: 0.645 g: 0.0 b: 0.968)) setBorderWidth: 1 borderColor:
> (Color r: 0.36 g: 0.719 b: 0.541))
>         addAllMorphs: (Array
>         with: ((StringMorph newBounds: (335@828 corner: 381@843) color:
> Color black) contents: 'file list')));
>     at: 6 put: (((SimpleButtonMorph newBounds: (385@824 corner: 490@846)
> color: (Color r: 0.323 g: 1.0 b: 0.613)) setBorderWidth: 1 borderColor:
> (Color r: 0.36 g: 0.719 b: 0.541))
>         addAllMorphs: (Array
>         with: ((StringMorph newBounds: (388@828 corner: 486@843) color:
> Color black) contents: 'message names')));
>     at: 7 put: (((SimpleButtonMorph newBounds: (490@824 corner: 595@846)
> color: (Color r: 0.323 g: 1.0 b: 0.613)) setBorderWidth: 1 borderColor:
> (Color r: 0.36 g: 0.719 b: 0.541))
>         addAllMorphs: (Array
>         with: ((StringMorph newBounds: (493@828 corner: 591@843) color:
> Color black) contents: 'archive viewer')));
>     yourself))
>
> Before you ask, the transcript button need be "reinitialized" when go to new
> image.
> For doing that, via halo select the button (you need two clicks, one for the
> AlignmentMorph  and the second for the button, this way you could see Morphs
> inside Morphs and act via Inspector)
> In the code pane of Inspector type select target as you see in pict.
> Type again Transcript and do alt s or command s (for aceppting the change).
> Presto, now you have the button working .
>
> I hope you know now what could export only a morph and not a complete .pr
> ....
>
> Next question ? :=)
>
> Cheers
>
> Edgar

_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

dabrowsa.vcf (162 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Herbert König
Hello Andrew,


AD> Would I be correct in thinking that real Squeak developers must not use
AD> the interactive gui-building tools in Squeak because those tools don't
AD> produce results that can be easily packaged?

that depends what you mean by packaged.

I packaged means an application you will just deliver an image with
the gui set up the way you want it. Nobody cares how you built that
gui.

Personally I start with interactively building a gui (often only a
proposal of a gui) and then I switch to code.

But then, Am I a real Squeak developer? :-))

Cheers

Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]

_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Edgar J. De Cleene
In reply to this post by dabrowsa@indiana.edu



El 4/1/07 8:15 PM, "Andrew Dabrowski" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> But doesn't the constructorString output omit the scripts associated
> with the buttons and textMorphs?

Well, Squeak is a child of only ten, don't knows all.
So you must teach what you wish it learn.

> Would I be correct in thinking that real Squeak developers must not use
> the interactive gui-building tools in Squeak because those tools don't
> produce results that can be easily packaged?

As Herbert said, I don't was a real Squeaker.
If you made a "app" , I also said do your complete suited to needs image.
But if you do some for same share and  use, repeat what IMHO the .sar way is
how.
And when you get your own morphs, export for load

At
ftp://elpelotero:[hidden email]/Public/
could log to this Mac.
 

You have several complete hand made images from different times, all semi
opened
and in
Public/SqueakLight/3.9Compatible/

you could see the .sar what loads in 3.9 (for you see the technique)

The Mac is fast, the cable modem is sloooooow ( socks )

(on approximate 09:00 to 20:00 GMT, dig and take what you like, at your own
risk)


_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Edgar J. De Cleene
In reply to this post by dabrowsa@indiana.edu
El 4/1/07 8:15 PM, "Andrew Dabrowski" <[hidden email]> escribió:


For last, you could have "intelligent Morph" as what I attach.
When you drag and drop, it have the code inside what is not in your image.
That way you don't care about other's people image, this should load.
Before I send, I try this old SqueakLight thing into the 3.10 alpha.
No problem, I could see my in use change set name (useful for not so
novices, is easy add code and you discover what was in the wrong .cs later)
and mouse coordinates



_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

Info.morph (5K) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

dabrowsa@indiana.edu
In reply to this post by dabrowsa@indiana.edu
>
> AD> Would I be correct in thinking that real Squeak developers must not use
> AD> the interactive gui-building tools in Squeak because those tools don't
> AD> produce results that can be easily packaged?
>
> that depends what you mean by packaged.
>
> I packaged means an application you will just deliver an image with
> the gui set up the way you want it. Nobody cares how you built that
> gui.

One drawback of images is that they tend to be quite large.  The .pr
files are small so that strikes as better way of distributing programs.

>
> Personally I start with interactively building a gui (often only a
> proposal of a gui) and then I switch to code.

I understand you to mean that you test out an interface design
interactively, but then do start over coding the whole gui from scratch
in smalltalk.

That's kind of tragic.  Squeak is wonderful environment for building
things, it shouldn't be necessary still do all the coding of the final
product textually.  Many WYSIWYG gui builders exist, I would have
thought Squeak would be a leader there.

I think for my purposes (building simple apps, no ambition to be a
professional grade developer) I ought to use the 3.8 image and work with
projects.  I hope that projects will be supported in later versions of
the image.

_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

dabrowsa.vcf (162 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Göran Krampe
Hi!

Andrew Dabrowski <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > AD> Would I be correct in thinking that real Squeak developers must not use
> > AD> the interactive gui-building tools in Squeak because those tools don't
> > AD> produce results that can be easily packaged?
> >
> > that depends what you mean by packaged.
> >
> > I packaged means an application you will just deliver an image with
> > the gui set up the way you want it. Nobody cares how you built that
> > gui.
>
> One drawback of images is that they tend to be quite large.  The .pr
> files are small so that strikes as better way of distributing programs.

Mmmm, a .pr file is a so called ImageSegment. It needs to be loaded into
an image.
So distributing .pr files only work if the receiver already has an
image. But you knew that I guess. :)

And btw, an ImageSegment is simply a "chunk of objectmemory". Or in
other words a really fast serialization mechanism (fast because it uses
primitives to actually write out the contents of memory for most of its
contents).

> > Personally I start with interactively building a gui (often only a
> > proposal of a gui) and then I switch to code.
>
> I understand you to mean that you test out an interface design
> interactively, but then do start over coding the whole gui from scratch
> in smalltalk.
>
> That's kind of tragic.  Squeak is wonderful environment for building
> things, it shouldn't be necessary still do all the coding of the final
> product textually.  Many WYSIWYG gui builders exist, I would have
> thought Squeak would be a leader there.

There have been several UI building tools/frameworks over the years. I
can't really comment much on them.
The continuous issue for all UI building tools is of course what the
heck they should produce in the end (code? serialized objects? XML?
etc).

> I think for my purposes (building simple apps, no ambition to be a
> professional grade developer) I ought to use the 3.8 image and work with
> projects.  I hope that projects will be supported in later versions of
> the image.

I think we will have projects for quite some time - but unfortunately
they are not inherently backwards compatible. For example, loading
projects from 3.7 into 3.8 causes problems (due to the new wide String
stuff). This is the current reason SqueakMap only works in 3.8+.
SqueakMap needs to move away from using ImageSegments in order to be
compatible with more Squeak versions.

Btw, if you intend to build "end user regular apps" then you might want
to look into either wxSqueak or possibly even the GtkPlugin:

        http://www.wxsqueak.org/
        http://squeakgtk.pbwiki.com/

Then you can use other UI building tools (Glade etc) to build the UIs.

regards, Göran
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Herbert König
In reply to this post by dabrowsa@indiana.edu
Hello Andrew,



AD> One drawback of images is that they tend to be quite large.  The .pr
AD> files are small so that strikes as better way of distributing programs.

as I said it depends on what you (and I :-)) mean by packaged. I meant
a shrinkwrapped Windows app, You seemed to talk about distributing to
squeakers.

In this case Monticello and SqueakMap are kind of standard tools. But
as Edgar pointed out sar is a good way too, if you want to include
media. For MC distribution you have to stuff media into a method
(search squeak dev) which I find cumbersome. I will change that
opinion of mine as soon as i need versioned media.

AD> I understand you to mean that you test out an interface design
AD> interactively, but then do start over coding the whole gui from scratch
AD> in smalltalk.

Not quite. I come from a history of sketching the gui with pencil and
paper. That's what I do by placing morphs in a project. There it's
easier to move them and check for "mouse miles". Mouse miles maybe is
my private invention but I check for mouse movements necessary to
perform typical tasks.

Then I put in magenta Strings for the names I intend to give to the
elements (ivars in the app) and blue strings for the methods I plan to
send. I then print it and start coding.

AD> That's kind of tragic.  Squeak is wonderful environment for building
AD> things, it shouldn't be necessary still do all the coding of the final
AD> product textually.  Many WYSIWYG gui builders exist, I would have
AD> thought Squeak would be a leader there.

I used Delphi (Versions 2 to 5) and I don't think so. It's ok for
simple things and you still have to note the name of the elements of
the gui on a printout if you don't want to look them up.
mainForm.myLabel.text := 'asdf'. Yuck.

VC++ and VB where worse in those times.

AD> I think for my purposes (building simple apps, no ambition to be a
AD> professional grade developer) I ought to use the 3.8 image and work with
AD> projects.  I hope that projects will be supported in later versions of
AD> the image.

I use projects for more than one app in one image. Context menu of the
world contains the the app's name and jumps to the project.

Be aware that imho 3.8 and earlier projects don't load into 3.9. But I
guess projects will be continued, at least in the squeakland image,
for very long.


Cheers

Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]

_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Herbert König
In reply to this post by Göran Krampe
Hello Göran,


gks> There have been several UI building tools/frameworks over the years. I
gks> can't really comment much on them.

I tried some of them and none was satisfactory imo.

I'm used to think of a gui as nested rows and columns in which to put
widgets. Nice auto-layout, always aligned (think resizing and
localisation). We are just doing localisation in a VC/VB project and
it is a pain. Lucky I don't have to do it.

I've learned that from AutoDesk's dcl (dialogue control language) but
they don't have a gui builder.

gks> The continuous issue for all UI building tools is of course what the
gks> heck they should produce in the end (code? serialized objects? XML?
gks> etc).

As long as it's ascii and the concepts are clear it's easy to build an
interpreter for it. The Ascii only contains layout and widget names,
at load time the app plugs the target and the method name into each
widget.

gks> Btw, if you intend to build "end user regular apps" then you might want
gks> to look into either wxSqueak or possibly even the GtkPlugin:

Haven't tried those.

Cheers,

Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]

_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Edgar J. De Cleene
In reply to this post by Herbert König



El 4/3/07 5:08 AM, "Herbert König" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> Be aware that imho 3.8 and earlier projects don't load into 3.9. But I
> guess projects will be continued, at least in the squeakland image,
> for very long.
You and Góran are wrong.

Some 3.7 and 3.8 projects loads into 3.9 (and 3.10 also)
Those what don't load , if you take time could find what change between
versions and do what load again.

I resurrect MorphicWrappers and MathMorphs from as old as 2.1 !! (some
parts) and success to load Fabrik from last images what have it into 3.10.

My plans is when we reach 3.10beta is rip the Etoys and Nebraska from 3.10
for have proper .mcz what loads again, and possible do a "compatibility
guesser" what could load older things.
At this time 3.10 have problems with Etoys .pr from earlier versions.

About using Monticello as kind of .sar for distribution, also I have a
"unapproved" version and a version of Rompecabezas  with this format.

Edgar


_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Bert Freudenberg
On Apr 3, 2007, at 11:25 , Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:

> El 4/3/07 5:08 AM, "Herbert König" <[hidden email]> escribió:
>
>> Be aware that imho 3.8 and earlier projects don't load into 3.9.  
>> But I
>> guess projects will be continued, at least in the squeakland image,
>> for very long.
> You and Góran are wrong.
>
> Some 3.7 and 3.8 projects loads into 3.9 (and 3.10 also)
> Those what don't load , if you take time could find what change  
> between
> versions and do what load again.
>
> I resurrect MorphicWrappers and MathMorphs from as old as 2.1 !! (some
> parts) and success to load Fabrik from last images what have it  
> into 3.10.
>
> My plans is when we reach 3.10beta is rip the Etoys and Nebraska  
> from 3.10
> for have proper .mcz what loads again, and possible do a  
> "compatibility
> guesser" what could load older things.
> At this time 3.10 have problems with Etoys .pr from earlier versions.

Edgar is right about that one - when loading a .pr in a newer image  
you can do all sorts of adjustments to make it work. This works in  
the Squeakland line of images for example - but it takes dedicated  
efforts to ensure loadability.

- Bert -


_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Edgar J. De Cleene



El 4/3/07 8:44 AM, "Bert Freudenberg" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> Edgar is right about that one - when loading a .pr in a newer image
> you can do all sorts of adjustments to make it work. This works in
> the Squeakland line of images for example - but it takes dedicated
> efforts to ensure loadability.
>
> - Bert -

Bert you always inspire me , as all what Squeakland do

I got the etoys-2.0-1217.image , but I can found any way of get Tools ,
World menu, etc.

The final product could have a "programmer mode" (Morphic)?

Could the Squeakland people have interest in OLPC to 3.10 and 3.10 to OLPC
way of loading things ?


Edgar


_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Bert Freudenberg
On Apr 3, 2007, at 13:53 , Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:

> El 4/3/07 8:44 AM, "Bert Freudenberg" <[hidden email]> escribió:
>
>> Edgar is right about that one - when loading a .pr in a newer image
>> you can do all sorts of adjustments to make it work. This works in
>> the Squeakland line of images for example - but it takes dedicated
>> efforts to ensure loadability.
>>
>> - Bert -
>
> Bert you always inspire me , as all what Squeakland do
>
> I got the etoys-2.0-1217.image , but I can found any way of get  
> Tools ,
> World menu, etc.

It's hidden - press Cmd-Shift-W.

> The final product could have a "programmer mode" (Morphic)?

Actually we do think about this, yes. Our original thinking was to  
avoid support issues - if we only expose etoys and not the Smalltalk  
browser, we only need to worry about etoys, and not about generic  
smalltalk stuff. Besides, the OLPC folks want kids to switch from  
Etoys to Python once they are older and we do not want to interfere  
with that goal.

However, it would be a waste to completely hide the power of  
Smalltalk. We want to hide it a little bit so as to not confuse  
beginners, but it should be possible. There are problems however -  
etoys projects are not ideal for dealing with source code for one. So  
ideas and contributions are appreciated.

> Could the Squeakland people have interest in OLPC to 3.10 and 3.10  
> to OLPC
> way of loading things ?

Interest yes, but we don't have any resources to spare for this,  
unfortunately.

- Bert -


_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Edgar J. De Cleene



El 4/3/07 1:27 PM, "Bert Freudenberg" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> It's hidden - press Cmd-Shift-W.

Wooooow. A very nice collection of stuff....
Some of this is new to me.

> Besides, the OLPC folks want kids to switch from
> Etoys to Python once they are older and we do not want to interfere
> with that goal.

Very sad to know they don't believe in Smalltalk.

> Interest yes, but we don't have any resources to spare for this,
> unfortunately.
>
> - Bert -

Once what 3.10 was in beta could you have time to supervise me like Ralph do
now ?

Edgar


_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Göran Krampe
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
Hi!

Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Apr 3, 2007, at 11:25 , Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
>
> > El 4/3/07 5:08 AM, "Herbert König" <[hidden email]> escribió:
> >
> >> Be aware that imho 3.8 and earlier projects don't load into 3.9.  
> >> But I
> >> guess projects will be continued, at least in the squeakland image,
> >> for very long.
> > You and Góran are wrong.
> >
> > Some 3.7 and 3.8 projects loads into 3.9 (and 3.10 also)
> > Those what don't load , if you take time could find what change  
> > between
> > versions and do what load again.
> >
> > I resurrect MorphicWrappers and MathMorphs from as old as 2.1 !! (some
> > parts) and success to load Fabrik from last images what have it  
> > into 3.10.
> >
> > My plans is when we reach 3.10beta is rip the Etoys and Nebraska  
> > from 3.10
> > for have proper .mcz what loads again, and possible do a  
> > "compatibility
> > guesser" what could load older things.
> > At this time 3.10 have problems with Etoys .pr from earlier versions.
>
> Edgar is right about that one - when loading a .pr in a newer image  
> you can do all sorts of adjustments to make it work. This works in  
> the Squeakland line of images for example - but it takes dedicated  
> efforts to ensure loadability.

Ok, perhaps I should have expressed myself a bit clearer - I wrote "not
inherently backwards compatible" which still is true IMHO - and
especially the other way around (loading say a 3.8 IS into a 3.7 image).

And I said "For example, loading projects from 3.7 into 3.8 causes
problems (due to the new wide String
stuff).". That was not correctly expressed. First of all I meant the
other way around and secondly I agree that it doesn't HAVE to fail.

regards, Göran
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Yoshiki Ohshima
In reply to this post by Edgar J. De Cleene
  Edgar,

> > Interest yes, but we don't have any resources to spare for this,
> > unfortunately.
> >
> > - Bert -
>
> Once what 3.10 was in beta could you have time to supervise me like Ralph do
> now ?

  For the "interest" part, I'm writing an externalization scheme for
EToys that doesn't so much depend on the internal structure of Squeak
objects.  This is more portable than current ImageSegment.

  The main purpose of this is to carry Etoys contents beyond Squeak,
but for among different Squeak versions, this externalized format
should help to get projects migrated.

-- Yoshiki
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Edgar J. De Cleene



El 4/6/07 7:11 PM, "Yoshiki Ohshima" <[hidden email]> escribió:

>   Edgar,
>
>>> Interest yes, but we don't have any resources to spare for this,
>>> unfortunately.
>>>
>>> - Bert -
>>
>> Once what 3.10 was in beta could you have time to supervise me like Ralph do
>> now ?
>
>   For the "interest" part, I'm writing an externalization scheme for
> EToys that doesn't so much depend on the internal structure of Squeak
> objects.  This is more portable than current ImageSegment.
>
>   The main purpose of this is to carry Etoys contents beyond Squeak,
> but for among different Squeak versions, this externalized format
> should help to get projects migrated.
>
> -- Yoshiki

If you could share any docs, or perhaps you do the coaching, I wish know.
I addressing Bert for he is advising on the 3dot10 list and have huge
experience.

Regards.

Edgar


_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Milan Zimmermann-2
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
On 2007 April 3 12:27, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
> On Apr 3, 2007, at 13:53 , Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
>
<<...>>
> > The final product could have a "programmer mode" (Morphic)?
>
> Actually we do think about this, yes. Our original thinking was to
> avoid support issues - if we only expose etoys and not the Smalltalk
> browser, we only need to worry about etoys, and not about generic
> smalltalk stuff. Besides, the OLPC folks want kids to switch from
> Etoys to Python once they are older and we do not want to interfere
> with that goal.

How very disappointing .... this is not the first time I understand politics,
not results, are driving the OLPC software future. So instead of "kids first"
we will have "python first". There is of course, absolutely nothing wrong
with competition, but for some to advocate Python to the point that others
feel they need to step back and not do the best their language and
environment can do, and hide it, that is wrong. (Especially without proven
results in python based child education such as eToys have.)

In the 90's I often heard in business "we are a VB shop, so we do not do
(Java, C++, whatever) projects" and I hated it, but to find it in a project
that should be above this, that is sad.

Milan

>
> However, it would be a waste to completely hide the power of
> Smalltalk. We want to hide it a little bit so as to not confuse
> beginners, but it should be possible. There are problems however -
> etoys projects are not ideal for dealing with source code for one. So
> ideas and contributions are appreciated.
>
> > Could the Squeakland people have interest in OLPC to 3.10 and 3.10
> > to OLPC
> > way of loading things ?
>
> Interest yes, but we don't have any resources to spare for this,
> unfortunately.
>
> - Bert -
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Morph Window -> Class? (was: error loading .pr

Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi,

Milan Zimmermann escribió:

> On 2007 April 3 12:27, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>  
>> On Apr 3, 2007, at 13:53 , Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
>>
>>    
> <<...>>
>  
>>> The final product could have a "programmer mode" (Morphic)?
>>>      
>> Actually we do think about this, yes. Our original thinking was to
>> avoid support issues - if we only expose etoys and not the Smalltalk
>> browser, we only need to worry about etoys, and not about generic
>> smalltalk stuff. Besides, the OLPC folks want kids to switch from
>> Etoys to Python once they are older and we do not want to interfere
>> with that goal.
>>    
>
> How very disappointing .... this is not the first time I understand politics,
> not results, are driving the OLPC software future. So instead of "kids first"
> we will have "python first". There is of course, absolutely nothing wrong
> with competition, but for some to advocate Python to the point that others
> feel they need to step back and not do the best their language and
> environment can do, and hide it, that is wrong. (Especially without proven
> results in python based child education such as eToys have.)
>
> In the 90's I often heard in business "we are a VB shop, so we do not do
> (Java, C++, whatever) projects" and I hated it, but to find it in a project
> that should be above this, that is sad.
>
> Milan
>
>  


Yep its very disappointing and sad. I think that Squeak needs to be less
"self contained" and play nicely and more transparently with other
languages/environments, but the idea it to make bridges instead of "this
or that but not both" decisions, at least in place where inclusion makes
sense. I have been using Squeak with my students and going from eToys to
Bots Inc to Smalltalk is a nice path in the learning of informatics and
the use of computers as a media for learning and expressing powerful
ideas (at this point would be nice to thing in bridges between Smalltalk
and other languages, like python). ¿Who are this OLPC folks and why they
decide for us?, I mean, if this project it's for improving education on
"developing nations", we, the people who live in that nations, wouldn't
be the ones who are taking an active part on the decisions instead of
being passive receptors of others silent decisions?

XO machines need to mature with the children as the time goes on, and
continuity is a key factor on that. We need bridges instead of abyss,
inclusion instead of exclusion.

Cheers,

Offray
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Smalltalk on OLPC (was Re: Morph Window -> Class?)

Bert Freudenberg
On Apr 8, 2007, at 19:17 , Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Milan Zimmermann escribió:
>> On 2007 April 3 12:27, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>
>>> On Apr 3, 2007, at 13:53 , Edgar J. De Cleene wrote:
>>>
>>>
>> <<...>>
>>
>>>> The final product could have a "programmer mode" (Morphic)?
>>>>
>>> Actually we do think about this, yes. Our original thinking was to
>>> avoid support issues - if we only expose etoys and not the Smalltalk
>>> browser, we only need to worry about etoys, and not about generic
>>> smalltalk stuff. Besides, the OLPC folks want kids to switch from
>>> Etoys to Python once they are older and we do not want to interfere
>>> with that goal.
>>>
>>
>> How very disappointing .... this is not the first time I  
>> understand politics, not results, are driving the OLPC software  
>> future. So instead of "kids first" we will have "python first".  
>> There is of course, absolutely nothing wrong with competition, but  
>> for some to advocate Python to the point that others feel they  
>> need to step back and not do the best their language and  
>> environment can do, and hide it, that is wrong. (Especially  
>> without proven results in python based child education such as  
>> eToys have.)
>>
>> In the 90's I often heard in business "we are a VB shop, so we do  
>> not do (Java, C++, whatever) projects" and I hated it, but to find  
>> it in a project that should be above this, that is sad.
>>
>> Milan
>>
> Yep its very disappointing and sad. I think that Squeak needs to be  
> less "self contained" and play nicely and more transparently with  
> other languages/environments, but the idea it to make bridges  
> instead of "this or that but not both" decisions, at least in place  
> where inclusion makes sense. I have been using Squeak with my  
> students and going from eToys to Bots Inc to Smalltalk is a nice  
> path in the learning of informatics and the use of computers as a  
> media for learning and expressing powerful ideas (at this point  
> would be nice to thing in bridges between Smalltalk and other  
> languages, like python). ¿Who are this OLPC folks and why they  
> decide for us?, I mean, if this project it's for improving  
> education on "developing nations", we, the people who live in that  
> nations, wouldn't be the ones who are taking an active part on the  
> decisions instead of being passive receptors of others silent  
> decisions?
>
> XO machines need to mature with the children as the time goes on,  
> and continuity is a key factor on that. We need bridges instead of  
> abyss, inclusion instead of exclusion.

Agreed. But, as I wrote before:

> However, it would be a waste to completely hide the power of  
> Smalltalk. We want to hide it a little bit so as to not confuse  
> beginners, but it should be possible. There are problems however -  
> etoys projects are not ideal for dealing with source code for one.  
> So ideas and contributions are appreciated.

So everybody interested in making the "Smalltalk experience" on the  
OLPC machine an enjoyable one, please help. The VPRI group focuses on  
etoys and system integration, but you are invited to contribute. And,  
in case this has not been clear, you do *not* need an OLPC prototype  
to run this. It's Squeak, after all.

- Bert -


_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Smalltalk on OLPC (was Re: Morph Window -> Class?)

Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Hi,

Bert Freudenberg escribió:

> On Apr 8, 2007, at 19:17 , Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
[...]

>
>>
>> XO machines need to mature with the children as the time goes on, and
>> continuity is a key factor on that. We need bridges instead of abyss,
>> inclusion instead of exclusion.
>
> Agreed. But, as I wrote before:
>
>> However, it would be a waste to completely hide the power of
>> Smalltalk. We want to hide it a little bit so as to not confuse
>> beginners, but it should be possible. There are problems however -
>> etoys projects are not ideal for dealing with source code for one. So
>> ideas and contributions are appreciated.
>
> So everybody interested in making the "Smalltalk experience" on the
> OLPC machine an enjoyable one, please help. The VPRI group focuses on
> etoys and system integration, but you are invited to contribute. And,
> in case this has not been clear, you do *not* need an OLPC prototype
> to run this. It's Squeak, after all.

I'm already helping. I have the OLPC image running on my laptop and
we're making test (one problem is that the content generated on larger
and different aspect ratio displays gets messed on the machine, as we
already tested, and we reported a bug with bookmarks on the Squeak
beginner list that was patched for OLPC and we test the patch on other
Squeak images). Next thing that we're going to probe is some interactive
content (fables and child tales) made, may be on Scratch in the same
sense of "Speak Up" projects (we'll see how this is supported by the
display) and we're going to test how to pass from eToys to Bots Inc in
the OLPC image (or may be having alternative images... I don't know
yet). I was not criticizing the VPRI focus and I understand the lack of
resources and need for volunteer effort, I was talking about "from eToys
to python" silent decision without any continuity and reflection from
the people who will be using the machines.

Cheers,

Offray
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
12