Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo{2,3} problems with seaside3.1
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Hi David
Thanks for those observations. Quick question: which VMs did you use (for 2 and 3 respectively)? Did you use the one-click app? Cheers, Max > On 08 Jan 2015, at 11:56, David Carlos Manuelda <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Currently, there are issues with latest stable seaside and pharo, which > have > been talked before but seems not getting much attention, and some of them > are important, so I want to do a little summary here. > > First of all, I have to say that I am new on smalltalk, pharo and seaside, > and started by reading Pharo by example, Deep into Pharo and Seaside > tutorial by Hasso Plattner Institut. > > Other issue, that is specially important because it confuses new users > (like > me) is that there are things which only works with pharo3 and not with > pharo2, and other, that do work with pharo2 but not in pharo3, which is > confusing, because the one click experience tarball comes with pharo2, so I > try to enumerate them here: > > ** Halos, and code editing: > - Pharo2: OK, working normally > - Pharo3: DANGEROUS, partially not working, and when it works it makes > you lose code, I explain: > x There are times in which you simply get the error: > MessageNotUnderstood: receiver of "generateWithSource" is nil and you can't > edit code > x When you don't get the above error, then you can edit code but > when > trying to save, I detected 2 possible bad behaviors: > - Save appears to work, but when you actually browse the code > you changed via browser in pharo, you see your whole method's code is > replaced by self methodHasNoSourceCode, in this case you lost your original > code > - Save not working, and debugger is raised, telling you: > Unknown variable (the method name you just edited), for example, in my case > I edited via browser the initialize method, and I got Unknown variable > initialize. > > ** Seaside Control Panel: > - Pharo3: OK, no errors > - Pharo2: Not working: > x Menu entry is missing > x If you invoke it manually or you just use the one that is raised > when you open firstly the one click experience image: > * Right click not showing anything (in pharo3 right click > displays add adapter and that kind of options) > * Selecting an adapter and clicking "Browse" give you: Not > understood message WAServerAdapterToolbar>>owner > * Start/Stop options also shows above message not understood > error > > > > Summary: Again, I am not an expert, and some of these issues are not > important enough, because seaside continues to work, but in my honest > opinion, that incongruity of functionality between versions 2 and 3, do not > make much sense, and make user to chose between comodity (seaside control > panel) and functionality (halos). > > > Any opinions to this? Thanks for taking your time to read :) > > David. > > > _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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Max Leske wrote:
> Hi David > > Thanks for those observations. > > Quick question: which VMs did you use (for 2 and 3 respectively)? Did you > use the one-click app? > > Cheers, > Max > with no more modifications to the stock image. For pharo3, I downloaded pharo3 and installed seaside 3.1 via Gofer. So this, in theory, is reproducible with stock images without any further modification to image. I want to point out that also, debugger is not raised in any of the two versions, only little error message in browser when something happens inside seaside, for example, a message not understood. That is really important, because it can be very hard to find with only the error title. >> On 08 Jan 2015, at 11:56, David Carlos Manuelda <[hidden email]> >> wrote: >> >> Currently, there are issues with latest stable seaside and pharo, which >> have >> been talked before but seems not getting much attention, and some of them >> are important, so I want to do a little summary here. >> >> First of all, I have to say that I am new on smalltalk, pharo and >> seaside, and started by reading Pharo by example, Deep into Pharo and >> Seaside tutorial by Hasso Plattner Institut. >> >> Other issue, that is specially important because it confuses new users >> (like >> me) is that there are things which only works with pharo3 and not with >> pharo2, and other, that do work with pharo2 but not in pharo3, which is >> confusing, because the one click experience tarball comes with pharo2, so >> I try to enumerate them here: >> >> ** Halos, and code editing: >> - Pharo2: OK, working normally >> - Pharo3: DANGEROUS, partially not working, and when it works it makes >> you lose code, I explain: >> x There are times in which you simply get the error: >> MessageNotUnderstood: receiver of "generateWithSource" is nil and you >> can't edit code >> x When you don't get the above error, then you can edit code but >> when >> trying to save, I detected 2 possible bad behaviors: >> - Save appears to work, but when you actually browse the code >> you changed via browser in pharo, you see your whole method's code is >> replaced by self methodHasNoSourceCode, in this case you lost your >> original code >> - Save not working, and debugger is raised, telling you: >> Unknown variable (the method name you just edited), for example, in my >> case I edited via browser the initialize method, and I got Unknown >> variable initialize. >> >> ** Seaside Control Panel: >> - Pharo3: OK, no errors >> - Pharo2: Not working: >> x Menu entry is missing >> x If you invoke it manually or you just use the one that is raised >> when you open firstly the one click experience image: >> * Right click not showing anything (in pharo3 right click >> displays add adapter and that kind of options) >> * Selecting an adapter and clicking "Browse" give you: Not >> understood message WAServerAdapterToolbar>>owner >> * Start/Stop options also shows above message not understood >> error >> >> >> >> Summary: Again, I am not an expert, and some of these issues are not >> important enough, because seaside continues to work, but in my honest >> opinion, that incongruity of functionality between versions 2 and 3, do >> not make much sense, and make user to chose between comodity (seaside >> control panel) and functionality (halos). >> >> >> Any opinions to this? Thanks for taking your time to read :) >> >> David. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo{2,3} problems with seaside3.1
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In reply to this post by Max Leske
Hi David,
Thanks for reaching out. You are right that encountering these issues is not a good user experience and we will try to improve on that. Let me quickly respond to your remarks already. The fact that the one-click download is still Pharo2 is something that went by unnoticed. I got reminded about that just last week and will try to update the download asap. However, installing Seaside in your own Pharo image is a much more preferred solution because maintaining the one-click download with latest bugfixes takes time as well, which is precious amongst Seaside maintainers. The Seaside control panel is broken in Pharo 2 and, unless someone provides fixes for it, will not be fixed. The reason is that it does not make much sense trying to maintain that for older Pharo versions. The differences between Pharo2 and 3 are large in the area and newcomers should use Pharo 3. The source code that cannot be saved is a know issue in Pharo 3 [1]. But please mind that this is not the way to edit your code. The WABrowser is just an example. The idea is that I update the website but the I did not manage it before the end of 2014. I hope to get at it soon though… Cheers, Johan
_______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo{2,3} problems with seaside3.1
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Hi Johan,
The issue is that I am simply unable to get Seaside 3.1 debugger to work completely with Pharo 3 & 4 - For Pharo 4 it even shows an error while loading and Halos debugger just does not work. There is a post about not working with Opal compiler I would like to know if there are Pharo 3 / 4 + Seaside 3.1 or later users and why this is not really a concern with them. I have embarked on a small commercial project as a Pilot / PoC which is to lead to a much larger commercial project and practically the only "tool" I am using as a debugger is "self halt". I want to know what I am missing regards Sanjay
cheers,
Sanjay |
Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo{2,3} problems with seaside3.1
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Sanjay,
I'm using Seaside 3.1 in Pharo 4 image 40423. When I put an error in my code and execute it, I get the Seaside walkback in the browser with a Debug link. If I click that link, the debugger launches in the Pharo window. Is that not what you see? Craig -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sanjay Minni Sent: 08 January 2015 07:24 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Seaside] Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo{2,3} problems with seaside3.1 Hi Johan, The issue is that I am simply unable to get Seaside 3.1 debugger to work completely with Pharo 3 & 4 - For Pharo 4 it even shows an error while loading and Halos debugger just does not work. There is a post about not working with Opal compiler I would like to know if there are Pharo 3 / 4 + Seaside 3.1 or later users and why this is not really a concern with them. I have embarked on a small commercial project as a Pilot / PoC which is to lead to a much larger commercial project and practically the only "tool" I am using as a debugger is "self halt". I want to know what I am missing regards Sanjay ----- --- Regards, Sanjay -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Re-Pharo-dev-Pharo-2-3-problems-with-seaside3-1-tp4798 315p4798413.html Sent from the Seaside General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo{2,3} problems with seaside3.1
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In reply to this post by Max Leske
Sanjay wrote:
>The issue is that I am simply unable to get Seaside 3.1 debugger to work completely with Pharo 3 & 4 - For Pharo 4 it even shows an error while loading and Halos debugger just does not work. There is a post >about not working with Opal compiler Yes, basically because we're calling the wrong method on the compiler or don't give it the right parameters. >I would like to know if there are Pharo 3 / 4 + Seaside 3.1 or later users and why this is not really a concern with them. Yes, we use Pharo3/4 + Seaside 3.1/2 all the time. It is no concern for us because: - we always download a new version from ci that works for us, mostly https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/QCMagritte/ I've found it takes me now about 5 minutes to add a new job there building a configuration for a new project (creating the configuration takes a lot more time). - QCMagritte default applications are registered with the WADebugErrorHandler for development. QCApplication class>>registerForDevelopmentAt: anApplicationName | application | WAAdmin enableDevelopmentTools. application := self registerAt: anApplicationName. application filter configuration at: #exceptionHandler put: WADebugErrorHandler. (self overridesDefaults includes: WAAdmin defaultDispatcher defaultName) ifTrue: [ WAAdmin defaultDispatcher defaultName: anApplicationName ]. ^application QCApplication class>>registerAt: anApplicationName ^(WAAdmin register: self asApplicationAt: anApplicationName) preferenceAt: #sessionClass put: self sessionClass; addLibrary: JQDeploymentLibrary; addLibrary: JQUiDeploymentLibrary; yourself - we nearly never use the halos. The css and page structure is mostly so complex, that it is easier to use the browser developer tools. >I have embarked on a small commercial project as a Pilot / PoC which is to lead to a much larger commercial project and practically the only "tool" I am using as a debugger is "self halt". I want to know what I am >missing A lot. Spending half my time in the debugger is not unusual. And that is not about fixing issues, it is about designing code. Stephan _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo{2,3} problems with seaside3.1
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In reply to this post by Johan Brichau-2
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:31 PM, Johan Brichau <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi David, > > Thanks for reaching out. You are right that encountering these issues is not > a good user experience and we will try to improve on that. > Let me quickly respond to your remarks already. > > The fact that the one-click download is still Pharo2 is something that went > by unnoticed. I got reminded about that just last week and will try to > update the download asap. > However, installing Seaside in your own Pharo image is a much more preferred > solution because maintaining the one-click download with latest bugfixes > takes time as well, which is precious amongst Seaside maintainers. > > The Seaside control panel is broken in Pharo 2 and, unless someone provides > fixes for it, will not be fixed. The reason is that it does not make much > sense trying to maintain that for older Pharo versions. The differences > between Pharo2 and 3 are large in the area and newcomers should use Pharo 3. > > The source code that cannot be saved is a know issue in Pharo 3 [1]. > But please mind that this is not the way to edit your code. The WABrowser is > just an example. Is that the case even with WANautilusBrowser? I thought that would fix the issues. Cheers Philippe _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo{2,3} problems with seaside3.1
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In reply to this post by Sanjay Minni
Hi Sanjay,
> The issue is that I am simply unable to get Seaside 3.1 debugger to work > completely with Pharo 3 & 4 - For Pharo 4 it even shows an error while > loading and Halos debugger just does not work. There is a post about not > working with Opal compiler > > I would like to know if there are Pharo 3 / 4 + Seaside 3.1 or later users > and why this is not really a concern with them. I am working with Pharo 3 without issues. What exactly is the issue you have there? If you are working with Pharo 4, then surely there will be issues since it’s an alpha version and we are not (yet) actively building Seaside on it. > I have embarked on a small commercial project as a Pilot / PoC which is to > lead to a much larger commercial project and practically the only "tool" I > am using as a debugger is "self halt". I want to know what I am missing I think the complexity of webapps have long surpassed the halos and in-browser inspectors of Seaside. They are still there but I never ever used them for real. They might have been cool at one point in time, but they are absolutely useless when your webapp grows beyond the hello-world and counter example complexity. So, the Smalltalk debugger (server-side) and built-in browser tools (client-side) are what we are using every day. cheers, Johan_______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo{2,3} problems with seaside3.1
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Thanks Johan & Stephan
I downloaded from https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/QCMagritte/ and as of now I am not concerned about Halos Class Browser & inspector (... thats OK) The image above did not not seem to have Prototype and Scriptalacous so I loaded it thru Monticello from smalltalkhub.com/mc/Seaside/Seaside31/Main - in the sequence below - Q: should it have been there ... and did I miss something or did I do what was expected ? (Javascript-Core, Prototype-Core, Scriptalacous-Core & Components and Javascript-Tests-Core, Scriptalacous-Tests-Core and Scriptalacous-Tests-Components) In myApplication Config I added a Filters->WAExceptionFilter and configured is to WADebugErrorHandler @Stephan I saw the piece of code in your mail below but did not understand what was to be done - pls guide QCMagritte default applications are registered with the WADebugErrorHandler for development. QCApplication class>>registerForDevelopmentAt: anApplicationName ... QCApplication class>>registerAt: anApplicationName ... thanks Sanjay
cheers,
Sanjay |
Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo{2,3} problems with seaside3.1
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Using pharo4+seaside from https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/QCMagritte/ with Javascript, prototype and Scriptaculous loaded and image updated World->System->Software updated.
I am unable to get the lightbox feature to work ... even in the examples at .../javascript/scriptaculous-components ( everything else in ../javascript/scriptaculous-components) seems to be working pls help in troubleshooting regards Sanjay
cheers,
Sanjay |
Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo{2,3} problems with seaside3.1
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Mixing jQuery and Scriptaculous in the same application can be bad news. If in the majority of your application you're using jQuery you'd have an easier time just sticking to jQuery. Is there a jQuery lightbox you can use? Maybe in the JQueryWidgetBoxProject on Smalltalkhub http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Seaside/JQueryWidgetBox Failing that - In the image or browser's developer tools are there any errors in the console when you try to use the lightbox?
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Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo{2,3} problems with seaside3.1
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Thanks Paul
actually I was only trying out the scripaculous demo (so no mix really) But JQueryUI (I just visited the site) seems to have all I need, so if thats stable and easy I can move and stick to that ... would that be OK ... for me stability / robustness is critical regards Sanjay
cheers,
Sanjay |
Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo{2,3} problems with seaside3.1
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Janjay,
Scriptaculous is end-of-life since a long time. jQuery (and jQuery-UI) are the preferred libraries in Seaside. cheers, Johan
_______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo{2,3} problems with seaside3.1
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Thanks Johan,
that really helps ... I was grappling with scriptaculous ... regards Sanjay
cheers,
Sanjay |
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