Re: Pharo-users Digest, Vol 55, Issue 94
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I want to get these esug videos, but i've searched through the whole pharo site and i haven't found them ... :( I appreciate if you point me where to find help on working with minimal image\deploying with Pharo. And i also think this very important information should be available on pharo site at conspicuous place. What about Dr.Geo - i've downloaded this program to test from official site (http://www.drgeo.eu/download#TOC-PC-Mac-GNU-Linux). I launched DrGeo.bat, as it noted in instruction. It shown me console window and Pharo command line options. That's all. It didn't start. I think, the reason is - also cyrillic paths, but ... who knows? And also i mean some simple and understandable deployment tool (as in Cincom VW exists) but not manual-written bash scripts. This tool asks me what class\accessor send open message, asks what to strip and how to pack my image. Few simple steps and i have perfectly cleaned minimal image with all image started methods tuned to load necessary class. It's really cool stuff. It's a pity, my low-level SmallTalk knowledge (VW + Pharo) is not enough to port this tool or create the new one. Please, understand me right, i don't criticize pharo, but i'm trying to understand what to do and how to do with less efforts for me. And these are the questions every developer asks. > On 11-11-17 18:58, ???????? ??????? wrote: > > Another stumbling block is application deployment. > > You want to start from a minimal image and load everything you need with > a Metacello baseline/configuration. And you want to change some settings > to run without sources. You will run into parts that are not modularized > enough yet and need their baselines to be split up further than they are > now. > > The minimal image is rather minimal. See the esug videos > > Stephan |
Re: Pharo-users Digest, Vol 55, Issue 94
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check esugboard channel in youtube On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 6:29 PM, Викентий Потапов <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bernardo E.C. Sent from a cheap desktop computer in South America. |
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In reply to this post by vikenti
Am 11.11.17 um 22:29 schrieb Викентий Потапов:
> I want to get these esug videos, but i've searched through the whole pharo site and i haven't found them ... :( ESUG and Pharo are still two separate entities, both legally and from the perspective of their goals. The ESUG conference was run by ESUG, not Pharo. Therefor you find the conference videos on the ESUG webiste. They are linked from this page: http://www.esug.org/wiki/pier/Conferences/2017/ .. or, as mentioned before, you can visit the youtube playlist directly. Joachim |
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In reply to this post by vikenti
Am 11.11.17 um 22:29 schrieb Викентий Потапов:
Vikenti, > And also i mean some simple and understandable deployment tool (as in Cincom VW exists) but not manual-written bash scripts. This tool asks me what class\accessor send open message, asks what to strip and how to pack my image. Few simple steps and i have perfectly cleaned minimal image with all image started methods tuned to load necessary class. It's really cool stuff. It's a pity, my low-level SmallTalk knowledge (VW + Pharo) is not enough to port this tool or create the new one. just out of curiosity and following my first reflex: if VisualWorks offers most of what you need and is essentially what you want - why do you want to switch to Pharo? This is not intended to be offensive or provoking. I just wonder if an open source project is the right thing for you. Pharo is emerging and has quite some pace doing so. This is both good and bad - at many levels. Commercial offerings may be a lot slower and thus less of a "moving target" (not sure I am citing you, but I know I read this in one of the threads about the current state of Pharo just these days), but they are pretty much focussed on issues like deployment and stable APIs. Joachim |
Re: Pharo-users Digest, Vol 55, Issue 94
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In reply to this post by vikenti
Hi vikenti
Can you tell us what you are trying to do? So that we can help you. There is no deployement tools in Pharo. First because we can easily break the one of visualworks with reflective operations. Second because we are focusing on something else. Now you can take Pharo and remove some packages. You can write your own release builder. What is cool is that you can also automate your release process. From Pharo 70 the process is to take a small image and build a new one. We should work on packaging an App (removing system menu and other). Stef On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Викентий Потапов <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I want to get these esug videos, but i've searched through the whole pharo site and i haven't found them ... :( > I appreciate if you point me where to find help on working with minimal image\deploying with Pharo. > And i also think this very important information should be available on pharo site at conspicuous place. > > What about Dr.Geo - i've downloaded this program to test from official site (http://www.drgeo.eu/download#TOC-PC-Mac-GNU-Linux). I launched DrGeo.bat, as it noted in instruction. It shown me console window and Pharo command line options. That's all. It didn't start. I think, the reason is - also cyrillic paths, but ... who knows? > > And also i mean some simple and understandable deployment tool (as in Cincom VW exists) but not manual-written bash scripts. This tool asks me what class\accessor send open message, asks what to strip and how to pack my image. Few simple steps and i have perfectly cleaned minimal image with all image started methods tuned to load necessary class. It's really cool stuff. It's a pity, my low-level SmallTalk knowledge (VW + Pharo) is not enough to port this tool or create the new one. > > Please, understand me right, i don't criticize pharo, but i'm trying to understand what to do and how to do with less efforts for me. And these are the questions every developer asks. > >> On 11-11-17 18:58, ???????? ??????? wrote: >> > Another stumbling block is application deployment. >> >> You want to start from a minimal image and load everything you need with >> a Metacello baseline/configuration. And you want to change some settings >> to run without sources. You will run into parts that are not modularized >> enough yet and need their baselines to be split up further than they are >> now. >> >> The minimal image is rather minimal. See the esug videos >> >> Stephan > > |
Re: Pharo-users Digest, Vol 55, Issue 94
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In reply to this post by jtuchel
Joachim
We are focused on deployment but not the same way. We are the first system that bootstrap a core and can load dependencies on this core. We have a dependency analyser that is really advanced since it can check that you have message that are not in extension of packages that you use. In January I hope that we will start packaging Applications (versus packaging code), so that people can deploy desktop applications more easily. Now if people like vikenti wants our support. They should learn how to engage a discussion with us and not just complain :) Stef On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 6:02 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: > Am 11.11.17 um 22:29 schrieb Викентий Потапов: > > Vikenti, >> >> And also i mean some simple and understandable deployment tool (as in >> Cincom VW exists) but not manual-written bash scripts. This tool asks me >> what class\accessor send open message, asks what to strip and how to pack my >> image. Few simple steps and i have perfectly cleaned minimal image with all >> image started methods tuned to load necessary class. It's really cool stuff. >> It's a pity, my low-level SmallTalk knowledge (VW + Pharo) is not enough to >> port this tool or create the new one. > > just out of curiosity and following my first reflex: if VisualWorks offers > most of what you need and is essentially what you want - why do you want to > switch to Pharo? > > This is not intended to be offensive or provoking. I just wonder if an open > source project is the right thing for you. Pharo is emerging and has quite > some pace doing so. This is both good and bad - at many levels. Commercial > offerings may be a lot slower and thus less of a "moving target" (not sure I > am citing you, but I know I read this in one of the threads about the > current state of Pharo just these days), but they are pretty much focussed > on issues like deployment and stable APIs. > > > Joachim > > > |
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Stef,
Am 12.11.17 um 16:05 schrieb Stephane Ducasse: > Joachim > > We are focused on deployment but not the same way. > We are the first system that bootstrap a core and can load > dependencies on this core. I may have chosen the wrong words, sorry for that. The OPs comments sounded so much like "why don't you have it like VW does" that I couldn't resist ;-) > We have a dependency analyser that is really advanced since it can > check that you have message that are not in extension > of packages that you use. > In January I hope that we will start packaging Applications (versus > packaging code), so that people can deploy > desktop applications more easily. Sounds like this is another area in which you guys are moving much faster than it looks from the outside. I don't have enough time to look into Pharo as much as I would and just by reading the mailing lists and just dipping my toes into Pharo from time to time, I sometimes get the impression Pharo is moving so fast I just can't follow. I still am not sure I understand that Git/Iceberg stuff, and that is already old hats for you guys... > > Now if people like vikenti wants our support. They should learn how to > engage a discussion with us and not > just complain :) That's probably what I wanted to say, but I am a kind person ;-)) Joachim |
Re: Pharo-users Digest, Vol 55, Issue 94
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> I may have chosen the wrong words, sorry for that. The OPs comments sounded > so much like "why don't you have it like VW does" that I couldn't resist ;-) Don't worry :) >> We have a dependency analyser that is really advanced since it can >> check that you have message that are not in extension >> of packages that you use. >> In January I hope that we will start packaging Applications (versus >> packaging code), so that people can deploy >> desktop applications more easily. > > Sounds like this is another area in which you guys are moving much faster > than it looks from the outside. Yes because what people see is just open a window. But inside we are trying our best to REALLY improve and it will pays off because having a powerful infrastructure will let us reinvent ourselves. > > I don't have enough time to look into Pharo as much as I would and just by > reading the mailing lists and just dipping my toes into Pharo from time to > time, I sometimes get the impression Pharo is moving so fast I just can't > follow. I still am not sure I understand that Git/Iceberg stuff, and that is > already old hats for you guys... Git is a modern distributed version system (it looks simple at first and may be super complex) :) Iceberg is a toolsuite and model to support git access from Pharo. We try to avoid to force people to do everything from the command line and provide abstraction also to manage Pull Requests which are not related to git but to github. >> Now if people like vikenti wants our support. They should learn how to >> engage a discussion with us and not >> just complain :) > > That's probably what I wanted to say, but I am a kind person ;-)) Me also but not all the time :) :) |
Re: Pharo-users Digest, Vol 55, Issue 94
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Administrator
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In reply to this post by jtuchel
jtuchel wrote
> I sometimes get the impression Pharo is moving so fast I > just can't follow. Don't worry. I use Pharo every day and sometimes feel the same way! I just hang on and do my best because I know it's all for a good reason. I accept the pain in the short-term because the projects I /really/ want to do depend on these critical improvements. ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
Cheers,
Sean |
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In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3
I think the issue stems from not using Pharo by choice. Apparently he can’t continue to use VW for political reasons, and is annoyed at having to port everything to an open source Smalltalk. I’d probably be annoyed myself if I had to port something I did 15 or 20 years ago in VisualAge or IBM Smalltalk, whatever I had to port it to. I’ve only had to port one project from Pharo to an IBM Smalltalk server process, so that it could run on a 128 thread UltraSparc. If I were any use writing compilers I could have ported Pharo itself, unfortunately I’m not. The options that’ve been given are workable. The advantages of Pharo are not going to be obvious if you’re only porting code written elsewhere, while differences are going to be right in your face. Andrew From: [hidden email] Joachim We are focused on deployment but not the same way. We are the first system that bootstrap a core and can load dependencies on this core. We have a dependency analyser that is really advanced since it can check that you have message that are not in extension of packages that you use. In January I hope that we will start packaging Applications (versus packaging code), so that people can deploy desktop applications more easily. Now if people like vikenti wants our support. They should learn how to engage a discussion with us and not just complain :) Stef On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 6:02 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: > Am 11.11.17 um 22:29 schrieb Викентий Потапов: > > Vikenti, >> >> And also i mean some simple and understandable deployment tool (as in >> Cincom VW exists) but not manual-written bash scripts. This tool asks me >> what class\accessor send open message, asks what to strip and how to pack my >> image. Few simple steps and i have perfectly cleaned minimal image with all >> image started methods tuned to load necessary class. It's really cool stuff. >> It's a pity, my low-level SmallTalk knowledge (VW + Pharo) is not enough to >> port this tool or create the new one. > > just out of curiosity and following my first reflex: if VisualWorks offers > most of what you need and is essentially what you want - why do you want to > switch to Pharo? > > This is not intended to be offensive or provoking. I just wonder if an open > source project is the right thing for you. Pharo is emerging and has quite > some pace doing so. This is both good and bad - at many levels. Commercial > offerings may be a lot slower and thus less of a "moving target" (not sure I > am citing you, but I know I read this in one of the threads about the > current state of Pharo just these days), but they are pretty much focussed > on issues like deployment and stable APIs. > > > Joachim > > > |
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The issue probably stems from not using Pharo by choice. Apparently he can’t continue to use VW for political reasons, and is annoyed at having to port everything to an open source Smalltalk. I’d probably be annoyed myself if I had to port something I did 15 or 20 years ago in VisualAge or IBM Smalltalk, whatever I had to port it to. I’ve only had to port one project from Pharo to an IBM Smalltalk server process, so that it could run on a 128 thread UltraSparc. If I were any use writing compilers I could have ported Pharo itself, unfortunately I’m not. The options that’ve been given are workable. The advantages of Pharo are not going to be obvious if you’re only porting code written elsewhere, while differences are going to be right in your face. Andrew From: [hidden email] Joachim We are focused on deployment but not the same way. We are the first system that bootstrap a core and can load dependencies on this core. We have a dependency analyser that is really advanced since it can check that you have message that are not in extension of packages that you use. In January I hope that we will start packaging Applications (versus packaging code), so that people can deploy desktop applications more easily. Now if people like vikenti wants our support. They should learn how to engage a discussion with us and not just complain :) Stef On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 6:02 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: > Am 11.11.17 um 22:29 schrieb Викентий Потапов: > > Vikenti, >> >> And also i mean some simple and understandable deployment tool (as in >> Cincom VW exists) but not manual-written bash scripts. This tool asks me >> what class\accessor send open message, asks what to strip and how to pack my >> image. Few simple steps and i have perfectly cleaned minimal image with all >> image started methods tuned to load necessary class. It's really cool stuff. >> It's a pity, my low-level SmallTalk knowledge (VW + Pharo) is not enough to >> port this tool or create the new one. > > just out of curiosity and following my first reflex: if VisualWorks offers > most of what you need and is essentially what you want - why do you want to > switch to Pharo? > > This is not intended to be offensive or provoking. I just wonder if an open > source project is the right thing for you. Pharo is emerging and has quite > some pace doing so. This is both good and bad - at many levels. Commercial > offerings may be a lot slower and thus less of a "moving target" (not sure I > am citing you, but I know I read this in one of the threads about the > current state of Pharo just these days), but they are pretty much focussed > on issues like deployment and stable APIs. > > > Joachim > > > |
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