Smalltalk › Frameworks & Tools › Seaside › Seaside General

Re: Rails and Seaside

_‹ Previous Topic Next Topic _›

Classic

List

Threaded

26 messages Options

Diego Fernández

Re: Rails and Seaside

Just to add my two cents to the discussion.
I think that the Squeak "look" is only a minor problem, the main problem is stability and usability.

The environment has lot of "small" annoying bugs, and if you have a "image crash" there is not an easy way to recover the last changes like in ENVY.

As a developer, this gives me this feeling: the environment looks "unstable" so I don't trust in it to put in a production web site.
On the other side VW is very expensive for small web sites (at least here in Argentina where I live).

So to make Seaside more popular, I think that a lot of work has to be done "clean-up" Squeak (that is full of spaghetti code).

PD: sorry if my post sounds rude, my English is not good.

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Lukas Renggli

Re: Rails and Seaside

> The environment has lot of "small" annoying bugs, and if you have a "image
> crash" there is not an easy way to recover the last changes like in ENVY.

That's not really true, sure there are some bugs in the system, but
mostly they are easy to fix, you are in Smalltalk after all.

All the changes are stored in a changes-file that can be easily
reapplied to the image, in case of a crash. I can honestly say that I
never lost a line of code since I started using Squeak 3 years ago.

Moreover there is a very sophisticated source-code versioning and
management system called Monticello, that beats StOrE in terms of
usability, flexibility, speed, merging, ... really everything.

> As a developer, this gives me this feeling: the environment looks
> "unstable" so I don't trust in it to put in a production web site.

There is a group of people (including myself), that are successfully
using Squeak for productive (web-)applications.

> So to make Seaside more popular, I think that a lot of work has to be done
> "clean-up" Squeak (that is full of spaghetti code).

I don't see much difference with VisualWorks.

Lukas

--
Lukas Renggli
http://www.lukas-renggli.ch
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Yanni Chiu

Re: Rails and Seaside

In reply to this post by Diego Fernández

Diego Fernandez wrote:
> I think that the Squeak "look" is only a minor problem, the main problem
> is stability and usability.

Stability? In over 5 years, I've only had an image crash,
or have had to kill the image at most a dozen times.

Usability? I've gotten used to the way things work. In fact,
I often find other Smalltalks lack Squeak's features.

> The environment has lot of "small" annoying bugs, and if you have a
> "image crash" there is not an easy way to recover the last changes like
> in ENVY.

Recovering from the changes file is pretty easy, if you
save your image often enough. Of course, with ENVY, you
can just re-load your open edition.

Here's a common situation with ENVY, which can happen if
you don't save your image often enough. You create a new
application after your last save. After an image crash,
you have no indication you need to load that application.
(If you had added the application to a configuration map,
upon creating it, then you would have a simple re-load.)
The bottomline is that you have to save your image often,
to make recovery easier - whether you have the changes file
or ENVY.

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Diego Fernández

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

On 1/13/06, Yanni Chiu <[hidden email]> wrote:

Stability? In over 5 years, I've only had an image crash,
or have had to kill the image at most a dozen times.

Sorry, that's not what happened to me :(

I use Squeak in Linux, and I had some inexplicable crashes (usually caused by the UI I think).
I cannot reproduce them :( that's why I never filled a bug report about it. (maybe the windows/mac version is more stable).
When I talk about "annoying" bugs, I refer mainly that some times (at least to me) the debugger pops-up without an apparent reason, that doesn't prevents me to continue using Squeak (some times I try to look in the stack to see what happened... and some times I just forget it and continue with my work) but I think that from the point of view of a newcomer this is ugly.

I'm pretty ignorant about the internals of the architecture... but when I browse the morphic/ui/kernel classes, I think "mmm this is full of spaghetti code".
For example the last week I was trying to fix the "splitter" bug in 3.9... and I give up. Having objects is not enough, you can also make a unmaintainable program with a lot of Boolean flags... using the True/False object :P (just browse references to Preferences to see examples). I think that most of those small bugs are a consequence of "spaghetti" code.

Usability? I've gotten used to the way things work. In fact,
I often find other Smalltalks lack Squeak's features.

Usability is not about features, and yes there is a lot of features.
But give Squeak to a newcomer, and to the non-standard UI add small things like:
- menus are full of options without an "intention revealing" title/or sequence of actions, i.e: if you copy a morph to the "paste buffer"... where is the "paste" option? (it takes me a lot to figure that is "World->new morph->from paste buffer").
- default keys are not mapped in a standard way (in Linux, the default is to use Alt, instead of Ctrl for saving and cut/paste), yes you can configure it in preferences... but now try to find where is the option
- the standard pop-up menus with the "Changes not saved...OK to cancel changes?"..."Yes/No".. why not simple a "Save/Cancel" (like in Mac dialog boxes).

I know that these are small things, but if we are talking about attracting developers to use Squeak and Seaside, we have to look in those small things.

(after writing down this list.. I think.."oh I'm a little stupid, why I just don't fill bugs/wish reports instead of writing this in an email".. yup)

Here's a common situation with ENVY, which can happen if
you don't save your image often enough. You create a new
application after your last save. After an image crash,
you have no indication you need to load that application.
(If you had added the application to a configuration map,
upon creating it, then you would have a simple re-load.)
The bottomline is that you have to save your image often,
to make recovery easier - whether you have the changes file
or ENVY.

Yes you are right.

Maybe I was too critic about Squeak. The platform has a lot of work, and is good in many aspects...
But I want a better open-source St. been critic is just the starting point :)

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

stephane ducasse

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

>
> I use Squeak in Linux, and I had some inexplicable crashes (usually
> caused by the UI I think).
> I cannot reproduce them :( that's why I never filled a bug report
> about it. (maybe the windows/mac version is more stable).
> When I talk about "annoying" bugs, I refer mainly that some times
> (at least to me) the debugger pops-up without an apparent reason,
> that doesn't prevents me to continue using Squeak (some times I try
> to look in the stack to see what happened... and some times I just
> forget it and continue with my work) but I think that from the
> point of view of a newcomer this is ugly.

Strange on my machine it nearly never crashes.
I have a mac.

> I'm pretty ignorant about the internals of the architecture... but
> when I browse the morphic/ui/kernel classes, I think "mmm this is
> full of spaghetti code".

Sure there are really ugly places. Let us face it but now we are also
cleaning squeak :)

> For example the last week I was trying to fix the "splitter" bug
> in 3.9... and I give up. Having objects is not enough, you can also
> make a unmaintainable program with a lot of Boolean flags... using
> the True/False object :P (just browse references to Preferences to
> see examples). I think that most of those small bugs are a
> consequence of "spaghetti" code.

Yes. I would like to remove as much as possible as preferences. Most
of them are useless.

> Usability? I've gotten used to the way things work. In fact,
> I often find other Smalltalks lack Squeak's features.
>
> Usability is not about features, and yes there is a lot of features.
> But give Squeak to a newcomer, and to the non-standard UI add small
> things like:
> - menus are full of options without an "intention revealing" title/
> or sequence of actions, i.e: if you copy a morph to the "paste
> buffer"... where is the "paste" option? (it takes me a lot to
> figure that is "World->new morph->from paste buffer").

Yes!
Please help.
We will try to refactor and clean. But for that we need help and
people supporting changes.
Because you have a lot of people that prefer not to fix things
because they have different agenda.

> - default keys are not mapped in a standard way (in Linux, the
> default is to use Alt, instead of Ctrl for saving and cut/paste),
> yes you can configure it in preferences... but now try to find
> where is the option
> - the standard pop-up menus with the "Changes not saved...OK to
> cancel changes?"..."Yes/No".. why not simple a "Save/Cancel" (like
> in Mac dialog boxes).

Send good code and we will integrate it.

> I know that these are small things, but if we are talking about
> attracting developers to use Squeak and Seaside, we have to look in
> those small things.

Yes

> (after writing down this list.. I think.."oh I'm a little stupid,
> why I just don't fill bugs/wish reports instead of writing this in
> an email".. yup)

Send fixes :)
and help.

> Maybe I was too critic about Squeak. The platform has a lot of
> work, and is good in many aspects...
> But I want a better open-source St. been critic is just the
> starting point :)

Sure the next step is .... help :)

Stef

PS: I will have a look at your automatic category organizer. It would
be nice to be able to nearly avoid to have to enter
category names :).

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Jeremy Shute

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

Squeak's GUI fails on so many fronts and succeeds on so many others.
There is such great opportunity (as it's open, and Smalltalk to the core),
and yet such a long way to go.

The use of real estate on big text is good. The bigger an object is, the
easier it is to click! The rounding of the buttons is BAD -- it's pixel
space you can't click on. Tighter-radius rounded rectangles, please!

The font choice is basically horrible. Serif text gives all sorts of
"cues" that the human eye can pick up in order to read faster, when on the
printed page. The screen, however, is 72 DPI. Do Apple, Microsoft,
Google, Yahoo, or Sony use Serif on their home page? No. Case closed.
Code should be in monospace because it's easier to communicate repeated
patterns that way (yeah, they still occur). These changes should be
default.

The shade button is brilliant, as it allows you to store your running
programs positionally (the same way you order the things on your desk).
You should be able to double-click on the entire title bar in order to
shade it, though. Windows should snap to the edges of one another for
easy/clean sorting!

Unfortunately, shading is not enough, alone. Some method to switch
between running processes quickly would be great (such as a representation
of tasks on the screen). In fact, this would be a great use of the middle
mouse button! Bury those damned morph controls under a context sensitive
menu.

The world menu. Brilliant idea when the desktop is empty, horrible idea
when it's full. Why? Because the most common commands take more time as
you get busier. And why, WHY would the browser and the transcript be
under "open"? Someone should turn on an opt-in usage profiler that feeds
back to the Squeak project, and the data should be anonymized and used to
rearrange the menus (and for that matter, buttons), so the most common
tasks are the quickest.

Flaps are "a good idea" -- allowing you to whip your mouse to the edge of
the screen in order to navigate a menu of frequently used things. Except,
they don't remain atop the other windows, which is a bad idea, because
although you can run your mouse at 90 miles an hour to any edge of the
screen, what you're aiming for isn't there any longer. ARGH.

Use the F1..F12 keys intelligently. The keyboard has tactile feedback:
why on earth would you not use these keys effectively???
User-programmable behavior should be possible using the world menu. Maybe
you want a box, where you can drag command snippets and select an icon?

Speaking of icons, USE ICONS. And for that matter, COLORS (which have
already been admirably used to identify different application types, such
as the browser).

Key bindings. Please decide on a universal set and then have access
modifiers that are application specific. For instance, ESC should always
bring up the world menu all the time. CUA keybindings should have 'meta'
commands (as is already the case). Emacs keybindings should have 'C-c'
pressed as an accessor, followed by the same commands.

And, in case that wasn't enough, can you please make it sexy (OS 9)
without being ridiculous (OS X)? Take the time you would spend making it
themeable and use it instead to get it right the first time. How many
people theme Firefox or OS X?

Jeremy

>> I use Squeak in Linux, and I had some inexplicable crashes (usually
>> caused by the UI I think).
>> I cannot reproduce them :( that's why I never filled a bug report
>> about it. (maybe the windows/mac version is more stable).
>> When I talk about "annoying" bugs, I refer mainly that some times
>> (at least to me) the debugger pops-up without an apparent reason,
>> that doesn't prevents me to continue using Squeak (some times I try
>> to look in the stack to see what happened... and some times I just
>> forget it and continue with my work) but I think that from the
>> point of view of a newcomer this is ugly.
>
> Strange on my machine it nearly never crashes.
> I have a mac.
>
>> I'm pretty ignorant about the internals of the architecture... but
>> when I browse the morphic/ui/kernel classes, I think "mmm this is
>> full of spaghetti code".
>
> Sure there are really ugly places. Let us face it but now we are also
> cleaning squeak :)
>
>> For example the last week I was trying to fix the "splitter" bug
>> in 3.9... and I give up. Having objects is not enough, you can also
>> make a unmaintainable program with a lot of Boolean flags... using
>> the True/False object :P (just browse references to Preferences to
>> see examples). I think that most of those small bugs are a
>> consequence of "spaghetti" code.
>
> Yes. I would like to remove as much as possible as preferences. Most
> of them are useless.
>
>> Usability? I've gotten used to the way things work. In fact,
>> I often find other Smalltalks lack Squeak's features.
>>
>> Usability is not about features, and yes there is a lot of features.
>> But give Squeak to a newcomer, and to the non-standard UI add small
>> things like:
>> - menus are full of options without an "intention revealing" title/
>> or sequence of actions, i.e: if you copy a morph to the "paste
>> buffer"... where is the "paste" option? (it takes me a lot to
>> figure that is "World->new morph->from paste buffer").
>
> Yes!
> Please help.
> We will try to refactor and clean. But for that we need help and
> people supporting changes.
> Because you have a lot of people that prefer not to fix things
> because they have different agenda.
>
>> - default keys are not mapped in a standard way (in Linux, the
>> default is to use Alt, instead of Ctrl for saving and cut/paste),
>> yes you can configure it in preferences... but now try to find
>> where is the option
>> - the standard pop-up menus with the "Changes not saved...OK to
>> cancel changes?"..."Yes/No".. why not simple a "Save/Cancel" (like
>> in Mac dialog boxes).
>
> Send good code and we will integrate it.
>
>> I know that these are small things, but if we are talking about
>> attracting developers to use Squeak and Seaside, we have to look in
>> those small things.
>
> Yes
>
>> (after writing down this list.. I think.."oh I'm a little stupid,
>> why I just don't fill bugs/wish reports instead of writing this in
>> an email".. yup)
>
> Send fixes :)
> and help.
>
>> Maybe I was too critic about Squeak. The platform has a lot of
>> work, and is good in many aspects...
>> But I want a better open-source St. been critic is just the
>> starting point :)
>
> Sure the next step is .... help :)
>
>
> Stef
>
> PS: I will have a look at your automatic category organizer. It would
> be nice to be able to nearly avoid to have to enter
> category names :).
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

GPG PUBLIC KEY: 0xA2B36CE5

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Cees De Groot

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

On 1/15/06, Jeremy Shute <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There is such great opportunity (as it's open, and Smalltalk to the core),
> and yet such a long way to go.
>
>[... lots of good critique snipped..]
>
Thanks Jeremy - great writeup, lots of very valid points. Keep
bitching about it (are you on the morphic team/list? I think that team
would welcome all the help there is on usability decisions...)

> Keybindings [...]

Personally, I think that Squeak's ignoring the keyboard is its single
largest usability misfeature. I should be able to do everything
without a mouse, with a single-button mouse+keyboard combos, or with a
gazillion-buttoned mouse.

I still have to look deeper into it, but from reading about it I liked
Archy's way of making the keyboard work
(http://rchi.raskincenter.org/index.php?title=Home). The sticker is,
probably, that at the moment the VM's don't seem to pass press/release
events of modifier keys up (or am I wrong here?).

> And, in case that wasn't enough, can you please make it sexy (OS 9)
> without being ridiculous (OS X)? Take the time you would spend
> making it themeable and use it instead to get it right the first time.

I think, by the way, that one of the better 'themes' I know at the
moment is <don asbestos suit> Windows XP's Silver look, but with a
normal title bar font size. It is totally unobtrusive and looks
stylish.

Having said that, and very much agreeing with your comments of making
it look good out-of-the-box (3.9a is a good step in that direction), I
think having a themeable Squeak is a worthwhile goal. It makes it much
easier to build games, rich 3d things, etcetera with it where you
typically want to have your own look.
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Lukas Renggli

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

In reply to this post by Diego Fernández

> I use Squeak in Linux, and I had some inexplicable crashes (usually caused
> by the UI I think).
> I cannot reproduce them :( that's why I never filled a bug report about
> it. (maybe the windows/mac version is more stable).

For server images you have to make sure that you close **all** windows
and make sure that no morphs remain on the desktop. This helps for
that (unpredictable) kind of crashes ;-)

Lukas

--
Lukas Renggli
http://www.lukas-renggli.ch
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Chris wong-2

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

In reply to this post by Jeremy Shute

I'm a newcomer to Squeak and have been itching to "bitch" about its
usability. :-) Here are my 2 cents.

On Jan 14, 2006, at 4:17 PM, Jeremy Shute wrote:

>
> The font choice is basically horrible. Serif text gives all sorts of
> "cues" that the human eye can pick up in order to read faster, when
> on the
> printed page. The screen, however, is 72 DPI. Do Apple, Microsoft,
> Google, Yahoo, or Sony use Serif on their home page? No. Case
> closed.
> Code should be in monospace because it's easier to communicate
> repeated
> patterns that way (yeah, they still occur). These changes should be
> default.
>

I couldn't agree more with Jeremy on the font issue. The first thing
I change is set the font to use the Vera san serif based fonts.
However, the anti-aliasing isn't done right. Too blurry on LCD
screen. After I switched over to use the anti-aliased fonts, the
display speed became awfully slow/sluggish. (at least on my PowerBook.)

> Flaps are "a good idea" -- allowing you to whip your mouse to the
> edge of
> the screen in order to navigate a menu of frequently used things.
> Except,
> they don't remain atop the other windows, which is a bad idea, because
> although you can run your mouse at 90 miles an hour to any edge of the
> screen, what you're aiming for isn't there any longer. ARGH.
>

I agree that Flap is a noble attempt to provide fast access to
frequently used stuff. However, it's poorly designed and implemented
compared to the Mac OS X dock or even the NeXTSTEP dock that was
designed over 10 years ago.

Mac OS X has done it right with the Dashboard and the dock. For
power users/developers, some global hot key bindings to bring up
browser or what not would be welcomed.

>
> And, in case that wasn't enough, can you please make it sexy (OS 9)
> without being ridiculous (OS X)? Take the time you would spend
> making it
> themeable and use it instead to get it right the first time. How many
> people theme Firefox or OS X?
>

Personally, I have grown to like the OS X U.I. more than the OS 9
now. I used to agree with what Jeremy said, but over time, I find
the arrangement in OS X feel better, not just eye-candy stuff.
Personally I consider themeable U.I. as a relatively less important
feature. 1) usually, theme created by the creative individuals are
too "colorful" and subjective for the usual users; 2) it has the
least to do with usability. Hence, I'd rather focus the effort on
improving the speed and usability issue.

All these issues boil down to one common problem for me. When I play/
work in Squeak, I feel cut off from my favorite OS, window manager,
editor, fonts, etc, which is my most productive environment. I love
the concept of Smalltalk/Squeak/Seaside etc, love the development
tools, but can't go back 20 years and look at jagged serif fonts on
my screen anymore when I have hundreds of modern anti-alias fonts on
my disk.

If Seaside is to be successful, Squeak would need an overhaul.

Another problem is the lack of documentation, some sort of high level
docs to help developers new to Smalltalk/Squeak get started to
contribute and improve the environment would be essential.

my $0.02.
Chris

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

smime.p7s (3K) Download Attachment

Damien Cassou-3

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

In reply to this post by Diego Fernández

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> I use Squeak in Linux, and I had some inexplicable crashes (usually
> caused by the UI I think).
> I cannot reproduce them :( that's why I never filled a bug report about
> it. (maybe the windows/mac version is more stable).
> When I talk about "annoying" bugs, I refer mainly that some times (at
> least to me) the debugger pops-up without an apparent reason, that
> doesn't prevents me to continue using Squeak (some times I try to look
> in the stack to see what happened... and some times I just forget it and
> continue with my work) but I think that from the point of view of a
> newcomer this is ugly.

It happens to me too at school (solaris). But I have no problem at home
(linux). What is your virtual machine version ? Have you tried to use
the memory option ?

At school, I need to use

$ squeak -memory 200m

to make things work. The version is 3.7-7 !

Bye

- --
Damien Cassou
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFDy6PM3hhx1vOEX5sRAl2eAJ97X/dMJhHV2FfusEmsH7KD846ovgCgsjR/
nTYUMaCequzJEjXF6c2l+ik=
=E8y0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Blanchard, Todd

RE: Re: Rails and Seaside

In reply to this post by Diego Fernández

The usual rule of thumb in this community is "no bitching unless you want to work on the solution".

I look forward to loading your change sets that address these issues. :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Chris Wong
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:24 PM
To: [hidden email]; The Squeak Enterprise Aubergines Server - general discussion.
Subject: Re: [Seaside] Re: Rails and Seaside

I'm a newcomer to Squeak and have been itching to "bitch" about its usability. :-) Here are my 2 cents.
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Cees De Groot

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

On 1/16/06, Blanchard, Todd <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The usual rule of thumb in this community is "no bitching unless you want to work on the solution".
>
Which of course doesn't mean he needs to actually produce code.
Getting others to produce code is just as good (but probably harder
;-)).
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Marcus Denker

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

In reply to this post by Blanchard, Todd

On 16.01.2006, at 18:20, Blanchard, Todd wrote:

> The usual rule of thumb in this community is "no bitching unless
> you want to work on the solution".
>

But with the UI, it's quite hard to get people that are already in
the community to accept any change.

Part of it is wrongly understood admiration for Alan, the reasoning
seems to be that a system designed by
the team of the inventor of the modern UI can't be bad or even if
it's bad that changing it would be an affront
against somebody (or something along that line).

The other is that people are used to have a system where you have a
destinction between those who
"get it" (the enlightened) and those who don't (the dumb ones). And
it's quite cool to be part of the
enlightened, and discuss in the small community of equals how dumb
everybody else is. A off-putting
user interface helps a lot to keep the number of enlightend small,
which is good.

The third is that people are just used to the interface "The green
browser is good for you", they tell you,
"You can use the color to distinguish the type of window, that's an
important feature, it improves
productivity". Ahh... well.

I allways tell them to ask people who have not used the system 5
years to see the emotional reaction.
"Wow, that looks cool, I want to learn that!". No? Then we surely
have the wrong interface.

Marcus
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Jeremy Shute

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

In reply to this post by Cees De Groot

Yes, I got a laptop drive this weekend for that purpose.

I've been rethinking even using a Squeak GUI. Perhaps a simpler solution
to the problem would be an editing mode ala SLIME? I wonder how much work
it would be to hook the MVC views and controllers to an Emacs buffer-based
representation?

I envision most of the boxes I use Squeak on will be headless anyway,
thanks to Seaside. Seems more efficient to transmit the representation to
Emacs than to draw pixels over the wire...

Jeremy

> On 1/16/06, Blanchard, Todd <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The usual rule of thumb in this community is "no bitching unless you
>> want to work on the solution".
>>
> Which of course doesn't mean he needs to actually produce code.
> Getting others to produce code is just as good (but probably harder
> ;-)).
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

GPG PUBLIC KEY: 0xA2B36CE5

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Andrew Catton

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

On 16-Jan-06, at 11:53 AM, Jeremy Shute wrote:

> Yes, I got a laptop drive this weekend for that purpose.
>
> I've been rethinking even using a Squeak GUI. Perhaps a simpler
> solution
> to the problem would be an editing mode ala SLIME? I wonder how
> much work
> it would be to hook the MVC views and controllers to an Emacs
> buffer-based
> representation?
>
> I envision most of the boxes I use Squeak on will be headless anyway,
> thanks to Seaside. Seems more efficient to transmit the
> representation to
> Emacs than to draw pixels over the wire...

I guess it depends on what sort of efficiency you're talking about --
Avi and I have been using the Squeak VNC server a fair bit to work
with deployed images, using the normal squeak UI. This is extremely
efficient in terms of developer time, as it already works.

Cheers, Andrew

>> On 1/16/06, Blanchard, Todd <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> The usual rule of thumb in this community is "no bitching unless you
>>> want to work on the solution".
>>>
>> Which of course doesn't mean he needs to actually produce code.
>> Getting others to produce code is just as good (but probably harder
>> ;-)).
>> _______________________________________________
>> Seaside mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>>
>
>
> GPG PUBLIC KEY: 0xA2B36CE5
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

======================

Andrew Catton
Smallthought Systems Inc.
[hidden email]

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Jason Rogers-4

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

Another datapoint -- the Squeak website is developed over VNC as well.

On 1/16/06, Andrew Catton <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 16-Jan-06, at 11:53 AM, Jeremy Shute wrote:
>
> > Yes, I got a laptop drive this weekend for that purpose.
> >
> > I've been rethinking even using a Squeak GUI. Perhaps a simpler
> > solution
> > to the problem would be an editing mode ala SLIME? I wonder how
> > much work
> > it would be to hook the MVC views and controllers to an Emacs
> > buffer-based
> > representation?
> >
> > I envision most of the boxes I use Squeak on will be headless anyway,
> > thanks to Seaside. Seems more efficient to transmit the
> > representation to
> > Emacs than to draw pixels over the wire...
>
> I guess it depends on what sort of efficiency you're talking about --
> Avi and I have been using the Squeak VNC server a fair bit to work
> with deployed images, using the normal squeak UI. This is extremely
> efficient in terms of developer time, as it already works.
>
> Cheers, Andrew
>
> >> On 1/16/06, Blanchard, Todd <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>> The usual rule of thumb in this community is "no bitching unless you
> >>> want to work on the solution".
> >>>
> >> Which of course doesn't mean he needs to actually produce code.
> >> Getting others to produce code is just as good (but probably harder
> >> ;-)).
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Seaside mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
> >>
> >
> >
> > GPG PUBLIC KEY: 0xA2B36CE5
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Seaside mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> ======================
>
> Andrew Catton
> Smallthought Systems Inc.
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

--
Jason Rogers

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I,
but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in
the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved
me, and gave himself for me."
Galatians 2:20
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

Chris wong-2

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

In reply to this post by Blanchard, Todd

On Jan 16, 2006, at 9:20 AM, Blanchard, Todd wrote:

> The usual rule of thumb in this community is "no bitching unless
> you want to work on the solution".
>
> I look forward to loading your change sets that address these
> issues. :-)
>

Nice try. :-) I wanted to help, but Squeak's philosophy is different
than mine. I see Smalltalk as a powerful development environment and
a VM for running headless server side apps. As for the GUI stuff, I
want it to have binding to the native GUI widget. Sort of like the
approach that Ambrai takes.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:seaside-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Chris Wong
> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:24 PM
> To: [hidden email]; The Squeak Enterprise Aubergines Server
> - general discussion.
> Subject: Re: [Seaside] Re: Rails and Seaside
>
> I'm a newcomer to Squeak and have been itching to "bitch" about its
> usability. :-) Here are my 2 cents.
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

smime.p7s (3K) Download Attachment

Chris wong-2

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

In reply to this post by Cees De Groot

Ahem! ;-) User's feedback is as important. Arguably it's more
important.

On Jan 16, 2006, at 9:23 AM, Cees De Groot wrote:

> On 1/16/06, Blanchard, Todd <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The usual rule of thumb in this community is "no bitching unless
>> you want to work on the solution".
>>
> Which of course doesn't mean he needs to actually produce code.
> Getting others to produce code is just as good (but probably harder
> ;-)).
> _______________________________________________
> Seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

smime.p7s (3K) Download Attachment

Jan Szumiec

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

In reply to this post by Damien Cassou-3

Damien Cassou wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>> I use Squeak in Linux, and I had some inexplicable crashes (usually
>> caused by the UI I think).
>> I cannot reproduce them :( that's why I never filled a bug report about
>> it. (maybe the windows/mac version is more stable).
>> When I talk about "annoying" bugs, I refer mainly that some times (at
>> least to me) the debugger pops-up without an apparent reason, that
>> doesn't prevents me to continue using Squeak (some times I try to look
>> in the stack to see what happened... and some times I just forget it and
>> continue with my work) but I think that from the point of view of a
>> newcomer this is ugly.
>>
>
> It happens to me too at school (solaris). But I have no problem at home
> (linux). What is your virtual machine version ? Have you tried to use
> the memory option ?
>
> At school, I need to use
>
> $ squeak -memory 200m
>
> to make things work. The version is 3.7-7 !
>
> Bye
>

Is there a way to access a running image remotely? Something like a
remote squeak desktop?
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

wilkesj

Re: Re: Rails and Seaside

On 3/4/06, Jan Szumiec <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is there a way to access a running image remotely? Something like a
> remote squeak desktop?

There is RemoteFrameBuffer. It is a vnc client/server. This allows
you to vnc into the desktop. The latest versions of Seaside have a
vnc entry point that allows you to turn rfb on and off via a web
interface.

For more info:
http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/834
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/seaside/2006-February/006779.html
_______________________________________________
Seaside mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside