Re: [Seaside] Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web frameworks

> Nick,
>
>  
>
> You nailed it. We all know that Smalltalk community is small and,
> quite possibly, getting smaller, whether we like it or not. The
> exposure that Avi had given to Seaside resulted in a good mass of
> developers coming on board and it becoming a de facto web framework
> for developing dynamic and powerful applications in Smalltalk. Given
> the state of things today, I would honestly much rather see competing
> frameworks converge on a single path and their developers contribute
> to improving Seaside in hopes of it continuing to sustain or gain
> traction, similar to how RoR had pretty much taken over in Rubyland.
>
>  
>
> -Boris
>
>  
>
> *From:*[hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] *On Behalf Of
> *Nick Ager
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2011 5:59 PM
> *To:* Seaside - general discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [Seaside] Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web
> frameworks
>
>  
>
> Hi Janko,
>
>  
>
> What are you trying to achieve? Is the idea that we come up with some
> feature comparison, add up the ticks in the supported column and
> declare a winner?
>
>  
>
> I joined the Smalltalk community because of Seaside or rather because
> of Avi Bryant's, Lukas's and others magical demonstrations that
> Seaside offered a compellingly more productive way of developing web
> applications. Some of the reason I continue to choose Seaside over
> other
> frameworks:
>
> * Component based
>
> * State management
>
> * DSL for Html generation
>
> * Neat integration with Scriptaculous and now JQuery for AJAX
>
> * #call, #answer semantics
>
> * active, friendly and technically deep development community.
>
>  
>
> The question we should be asking ourselves is what compelling features
> can we develop which will attract a set of new developers to
> Smalltalk, otherwise it feels like we're bald men fighting over a comb.
>
>  
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

> I don't think Avi was talking about better XHR support or clean URLs or
> external file serving support etcetera (even though Seaside is perfectly
> capable of all 3). I'm pretty sure in the age of hashbang URIs all 3 of the
> frameworks listed are pretty much obsolete if all you're looking for is
> better structured callback support to drive client-side applications (which
> is why I'd really like to see JTalk evolve+succeed on the front-end, then we
> can tackle the backend support and it'll have very little to do with either
> framework in its current state). We all have to keep in mind that these
> frameworks don't generally evolve by someone deciding to spend their time on
> improving the framework for frameworks' sake. Instead, the improvements are
> secondary to folks trying to build real applications and needing solutions
> to design/implementation issues that come up in that process, so regardless
> of what's available in spreadsheets or issue trackers, folks will only work
> on things that they need and consider important.
>
> Look, I have nothing against comparisons per se and my earlier post was
> meant to lighten the mood a bit by taking tables to extremes to show how
> easy it is to tip the scales (but Stephane is, indeed, a feature and, in all
> seriousness, we really could use someone like him in the VisualWorks
> community IMHO, so, Stephane, don't take offence to being included, it was a
> compliment). If I were to take this further (and I'm not sure I would), I'd
> start by stripping the spreadsheet down to bare minimums and making it
> editable. Yes, it may result in some noise, but like Wikipedia, it'll
> eventually settle down as most of us are reasonable adults, or so I like to
> think anyway. The key is making it dead simple for people to contribute. In
> fact, I tried to go down that list yesterday to add some comments and
> corrections, but upon discovering that it was read-only, it was no longer
> 'simple enough'.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Boris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Janko
> Mivšek
> Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 8:13 AM
> To: Seaside - general discussion
> Cc: Aida/Web general discussion list; [hidden email]
> Subject: [Seaside] Re: Comparison of Aida/Web,Seaside and Iliad web
> frameworks
>
> It is hard to expect from us others to merge into if even its author admits
> that Seaside is now obsolete. That is, (from Avi words [1]) Seaside was
> advanced at the time it was designed, but now it lags behind (as Ruby on
> Rails and others too), specially because of JavaScript/Ajax advances. It is
> therefore better for Seaside to rather listen to its author and do
> something. Or merge already done ideas from us others instead.
>
> Common guys, Ajax is 5 years old, let the Seaside finally come with Ajax
> support at least close to that in Iliad and Aida! Then study carefully what
> Nicolas Petton and his group is working on Iliad and Jtalk. We are doing so
> and incorporating but also extending his ideas in Aida. And on the other way
> too, Nico is listening what we are doing. Why not you too?
>
> The most popular Smalltalk web framework sleeping on the successes in past
> is namely bad for all Smalltalk, that's why I'd like to open the debate
> about the web support in Smalltalk in general.
>
> On the web we have an opportunity, are we loosing it?
>
> That's why I'm pushing this comparison and that's why I'd have and ESUG talk
> titled "On the web frontiers with Smalltalk". And a panel is planned too.
>
> So, Seasiders, come to the web frontiers again by looking what we others are
> doing, learn and adopt. And contribute some own innovative ideas to the
> Smalltalk on the web again!
>
> Best regards
> Janko
>
> [1]
> http://www.stic.st/events/smalltalk-solutions-2011-abstracts/smalltalk-and-big-data/
>
> S, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs piše:
>> Nick,
>>
>>
>>
>> You nailed it. We all know that Smalltalk community is small and,
>> quite possibly, getting smaller, whether we like it or not. The
>> exposure that Avi had given to Seaside resulted in a good mass of
>> developers coming on board and it becoming a de facto web framework
>> for developing dynamic and powerful applications in Smalltalk. Given
>> the state of things today, I would honestly much rather see competing
>> frameworks converge on a single path and their developers contribute
>> to improving Seaside in hopes of it continuing to sustain or gain
>> traction, similar to how RoR had pretty much taken over in Rubyland.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Boris
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:*[hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] *On Behalf Of
>> *Nick Ager
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2011 5:59 PM
>> *To:* Seaside - general discussion
>> *Subject:* Re: [Seaside] Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad web
>> frameworks
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Janko,
>>
>>
>>
>> What are you trying to achieve? Is the idea that we come up with some
>> feature comparison, add up the ticks in the supported column and
>> declare a winner?
>>
>>
>>
>> I joined the Smalltalk community because of Seaside or rather because
>> of Avi Bryant's, Lukas's and others magical demonstrations that
>> Seaside offered a compellingly more productive way of developing web
>> applications. Some of the reason I continue to choose Seaside over
>> other
>> frameworks:
>>
>> * Component based
>>
>> * State management
>>
>> * DSL for Html generation
>>
>> * Neat integration with Scriptaculous and now JQuery for AJAX
>>
>> * #call, #answer semantics
>>
>> * active, friendly and technically deep development community.
>>
>>
>>
>> The question we should be asking ourselves is what compelling features
>> can we develop which will attract a set of new developers to
>> Smalltalk, otherwise it feels like we're bald men fighting over a comb.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> seaside mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> --
> Janko Mivšek
> Aida/Web
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
> http://www.aidaweb.si
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs
> Sent: 22. kesäkuuta 2011 15:43
> To: Seaside - general discussion; VWNC
> Cc: Aida/Web general discussion list; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [vwnc] [Seaside] Re: Comparison of Aida/Web,Seaside and
> Iliad web frameworks
>
> I don't think Avi was talking about better XHR support or clean URLs or
> external file serving support etcetera (even though Seaside is
> perfectly capable of all 3). I'm pretty sure in the age of hashbang
> URIs all 3 of the frameworks listed are pretty much obsolete if all
> you're looking for is better structured callback support to drive
> client-side applications (which is why I'd really like to see JTalk
> evolve+succeed on the front-end, then we can tackle the backend support
> and it'll have very little to do with either framework in its current
> state). We all have to keep in mind that these frameworks don't
> generally evolve by someone deciding to spend their time on improving
> the framework for frameworks' sake. Instead, the improvements are
> secondary to folks trying to build real applications and needing
> solutions to design/implementation issues that come up in that process,
> so regardless of what's available in spreadsheets or issue trackers,
> folks will only work on things that they need and consider important.
>
> Look, I have nothing against comparisons per se and my earlier post was
> meant to lighten the mood a bit by taking tables to extremes to show
> how easy it is to tip the scales (but Stephane is, indeed, a feature
> and, in all seriousness, we really could use someone like him in the
> VisualWorks community IMHO, so, Stephane, don't take offence to being
> included, it was a compliment). If I were to take this further (and I'm
> not sure I would), I'd start by stripping the spreadsheet down to bare
> minimums and making it editable. Yes, it may result in some noise, but
> like Wikipedia, it'll eventually settle down as most of us are
> reasonable adults, or so I like to think anyway. The key is making it
> dead simple for people to contribute. In fact, I tried to go down that
> list yesterday to add some comments and corrections, but upon
> discovering that it was read-only, it was no longer 'simple enough'.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Boris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:seaside-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Janko Mivšek
> Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 8:13 AM
> To: Seaside - general discussion
> Cc: Aida/Web general discussion list; [hidden email]
> Subject: [Seaside] Re: Comparison of Aida/Web,Seaside and Iliad web
> frameworks
>
> It is hard to expect from us others to merge into if even its author
> admits that Seaside is now obsolete. That is, (from Avi words [1])
> Seaside was advanced at the time it was designed, but now it lags
> behind (as Ruby on Rails and others too), specially because of
> JavaScript/Ajax advances. It is therefore better for Seaside to rather
> listen to its author and do something. Or merge already done ideas from
> us others instead.
>
> Common guys, Ajax is 5 years old, let the Seaside finally come with
> Ajax support at least close to that in Iliad and Aida! Then study
> carefully what Nicolas Petton and his group is working on Iliad and
> Jtalk. We are doing so and incorporating but also extending his ideas
> in Aida. And on the other way too, Nico is listening what we are doing.
> Why not you too?
>
> The most popular Smalltalk web framework sleeping on the successes in
> past is namely bad for all Smalltalk, that's why I'd like to open the
> debate about the web support in Smalltalk in general.
>
> On the web we have an opportunity, are we loosing it?
>
> That's why I'm pushing this comparison and that's why I'd have and ESUG
> talk titled "On the web frontiers with Smalltalk". And a panel is
> planned too.
>
> So, Seasiders, come to the web frontiers again by looking what we
> others are doing, learn and adopt. And contribute some own innovative
> ideas to the Smalltalk on the web again!
>
> Best regards
> Janko
>
> [1]
> http://www.stic.st/events/smalltalk-solutions-2011-abstracts/smalltalk-
> and-big-data/
>
> S, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs piše:
> > Nick,
> >
> >
> >
> > You nailed it. We all know that Smalltalk community is small and,
> > quite possibly, getting smaller, whether we like it or not. The
> > exposure that Avi had given to Seaside resulted in a good mass of
> > developers coming on board and it becoming a de facto web framework
> > for developing dynamic and powerful applications in Smalltalk. Given
> > the state of things today, I would honestly much rather see competing
> > frameworks converge on a single path and their developers contribute
> > to improving Seaside in hopes of it continuing to sustain or gain
> > traction, similar to how RoR had pretty much taken over in Rubyland.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Boris
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:*[hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] *On Behalf Of
> > *Nick Ager
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2011 5:59 PM
> > *To:* Seaside - general discussion
> > *Subject:* Re: [Seaside] Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliad
> web
> > frameworks
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Janko,
> >
> >
> >
> > What are you trying to achieve? Is the idea that we come up with some
> > feature comparison, add up the ticks in the supported column and
> > declare a winner?
> >
> >
> >
> > I joined the Smalltalk community because of Seaside or rather because
> > of Avi Bryant's, Lukas's and others magical demonstrations that
> > Seaside offered a compellingly more productive way of developing web
> > applications. Some of the reason I continue to choose Seaside over
> > other
> > frameworks:
> >
> > * Component based
> >
> > * State management
> >
> > * DSL for Html generation
> >
> > * Neat integration with Scriptaculous and now JQuery for AJAX
> >
> > * #call, #answer semantics
> >
> > * active, friendly and technically deep development community.
> >
> >
> >
> > The question we should be asking ourselves is what compelling
> features
> > can we develop which will attract a set of new developers to
> > Smalltalk, otherwise it feels like we're bald men fighting over a
> comb.
> >
> >
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > seaside mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> --
> Janko Mivšek
> Aida/Web
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
> http://www.aidaweb.si
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

> http://bitquabit.com/post/make-love-not-flamewars/
>  
> -Boris
>  
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Runar Jordahl
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 7:37 AM
> Cc: Seaside - general discussion; VWNC; [hidden email]; Aida/Web general discussion list
> Subject: Re: [vwnc] [Seaside] Re: Comparison of Aida/Web, Seaside and Iliadweb frameworks
>  
> Come on… We all know Janko is biased, and the comparison reflects that. But it is not like he wants to take over the world and kill Seaside. Well… maybe he wants, but there is still no reason to get upset. :-)
>  
> I have only tried Seaside, choosing that framework since it is the “default” one to use for Smalltalk web development. At least the comparison made me aware of Iliad, and had me rediscover Aida. But even if I now have more knowledge, I am more confused than ever.
>  
> We need some small reports, from various sources, comparing the strengths and weaknesses of the frameworks. Creating a collaborative to-do-list application might be a good reference case.
>  
> From what I understand, all three frameworks generate HTML using roughly the same techniques. But there are differences in how you compose a page from multiple components. The spreadsheet mentions “composition” vs. “rendering”. Getting a short discussion about these concepts is probably more helpful than a lot of (smaller) features compared.
>  
> It seems like everyone agrees on the importance of JavaScript. So explaining how the various frameworks handle this and how they will tackle it in the future, is important. It seems like Aida and Seaside takes different routes here. How does that matter for me as a user? Again, a more detailed discussion than “yes” / ”no” on a feature list, would be welcome.
>  
> It is also interesting to see how this thread discusses the future of Smalltalk web frameworks. As I understand this, we have Aida, Iliad and Seaside being the “server-centric” web frameworks. These frameworks generate the UI on the server, and use third-party JavaScript libraries to provide a richer UI experience at the client. Then we have Quicksilver and Jtalk which basically let you run your UI (Smalltalk) code in the client browser itself. These “client-centric” frameworks are experimental and not ready for production. As Janko mentions, integration between these two types of frameworks will be important.
>  
> Kind regards
> Runar Jordahl
> blog.epigent.com
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc