Re: [Seaside] Seaside elements vs. HTML5 spec

It seems that the version of Seaside I was basing this on was 3.0.3 which is the latest version ported to VisualWorks in the Cincom Public Store repository.  As you say, things have changed since and support for the HTML5 spec has improved.

Thanks,
David

Philippe Marschall wrote:

2011/9/25 David Buck [hidden email]:
  

The HTML5 spec is still changing and it's hard to keep up with the latest
changes.  Since I'm developing a Seaside course, I decided to go through the
current HTML5 spec (Editor's Draft 23 September 2011) and compare what
element tags are available in that spec versus the tags we support in
Seaside
    

Thanks for the effort and sharing.

  

(Seaside 3.0 - 8 released with VW7.8).
    

I don't know which Seaside version this is based on but the situation
in Seaside 3.0.6 is a bit different (see below). Most of the changes
probably come from Seaside 3.0.4.

  

In general, Seaside has
quite good support for HTML5.  Here are the differences I've found:

Note:  I'm simply offering this list as information for anyone interested.
 I needed to research this for the course and thought it would be good to
share the results.

The following tags are inconsistent between Seaside and the current version
of HTML5
  mark   (already reported)

Tags in HTML5 not supported by Seaside (some of these are poor style and
should use newer tags but are still supported in HTML):
  hgroup
    

#headingGroup there but missing tests

  

  figcaption
    

missing

  

  s
  i (should use emphasis)
  b (should use strong)
  u (shouldn't really use at all)
    

All of these are deprecated in HTML 4 in favor of CSS and intentionally missing.

  

  bdi
    

#bidirectional, there but missing tests, should probably be #biDirectional.

  

  bdo
    

missing indeed

  

  wbr
    

#lineBreakOpportunity, there but missing tests

  

  embed
    

#embed there but missing tests

  

  audio (interestingly, a WAAudioTag class exists with no call from the
canvas)
    

#audio, even has tests

  

  track
    

missing indeed

  

  map (WAImageMapTag class uses an anchor tag)
    

missing indeed

  

  area
    

missing indeed

  

  output
    

We have a WAOutputTag but it's never used :-(

  

  summary
    

missing indeed

  

The following tags are supported by Seaside but aren't in the current HTML5
spec (no problem keeping them for backward compatibility but perhaps they
should be marked as deprecated):
  rubyBase
  rubyBaseContainer
  rubyTextContainer
    

Indeed, they seem to be replaced by rt and rp

  

  datagrid
    

funny, yes missing

  

  acronym
    

"deprecated" but still in HTML 4, therefore likely to stay

  

  dialog
    

Indeed

  

  teletype
    

"deprecated" but still in HTML 4, therefore likely to stay

Cheers
Philippe
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One should be able to use Monticello tools in VisualWorks to get hold of most recent versions of Seaside, I’ve had some success in the past with that, although that was mostly by trial-and-error given how confusing the menu choices in the tool are/were.

 

-Boris

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of giorgio ferraris
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:08 AM
To: Visualworks Mailing List
Subject: Re: [vwnc] [Seaside] Seaside elements vs. HTML5 spec

 

Hi, 

 

it seems that Seaside was on top of priority for VW, and for this reason the work on the GUI side was delayed. And now we are late on the Gui work and late on the Seaside too!!

 

There are plans to officially follow the Seaside release on the VW side? (including the major add-on) (and without killing the Gui side, please...).

 

thanks

 

giorgio

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 12:51 PM, David Buck <[hidden email]> wrote:

It seems that the version of Seaside I was basing this on was 3.0.3 which is the latest version ported to VisualWorks in the Cincom Public Store repository.  As you say, things have changed since and support for the HTML5 spec has improved.

Thanks,
David

Philippe Marschall wrote:

2011/9/25 David Buck [hidden email]:

The HTML5 spec is still changing and it's hard to keep up with the latest

changes.  Since I'm developing a Seaside course, I decided to go through the

current HTML5 spec (Editor's Draft 23 September 2011) and compare what

element tags are available in that spec versus the tags we support in

Seaside

Thanks for the effort and sharing.

(Seaside 3.0 - 8 released with VW7.8).

I don't know which Seaside version this is based on but the situation

in Seaside 3.0.6 is a bit different (see below). Most of the changes

probably come from Seaside 3.0.4.

In general, Seaside has

quite good support for HTML5.  Here are the differences I've found:

Note:  I'm simply offering this list as information for anyone interested.

 I needed to research this for the course and thought it would be good to

share the results.

The following tags are inconsistent between Seaside and the current version

of HTML5

  mark   (already reported)

Tags in HTML5 not supported by Seaside (some of these are poor style and

should use newer tags but are still supported in HTML):

  hgroup

#headingGroup there but missing tests

  figcaption

missing

  s

  i (should use emphasis)

  b (should use strong)

  u (shouldn't really use at all)

All of these are deprecated in HTML 4 in favor of CSS and intentionally missing.

  bdi

#bidirectional, there but missing tests, should probably be #biDirectional.

  bdo

missing indeed

  wbr

#lineBreakOpportunity, there but missing tests

  embed

#embed there but missing tests

  audio (interestingly, a WAAudioTag class exists with no call from the

canvas)

#audio, even has tests

  track

missing indeed

  map (WAImageMapTag class uses an anchor tag)

missing indeed

  area

missing indeed

  output

We have a WAOutputTag but it's never used :-(

  summary

missing indeed

The following tags are supported by Seaside but aren't in the current HTML5

spec (no problem keeping them for backward compatibility but perhaps they

should be marked as deprecated):

  rubyBase

  rubyBaseContainer

  rubyTextContainer

Indeed, they seem to be replaced by rt and rp

  datagrid

funny, yes missing

  acronym

"deprecated" but still in HTML 4, therefore likely to stay

  dialog

Indeed

  teletype

"deprecated" but still in HTML 4, therefore likely to stay

Cheers

Philippe

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David,

I'm not sure I agree, with the fast evolving framework like Seaside,
what specific reason should there be to link the port to VisualWorks'
own release schedule? The whole point of developing Monticello tools was
to enable quick and painless pulls from Pharo/Squeak, unless I'm missing
something.

-Boris

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On

Behalf Of David Buck
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 9:07 AM
To: 'VWNC'

Subject: Re: [vwnc] [Seaside] Seaside elements vs. HTML5 spec

Ok, here's the timeline:

Dec 17, 2010    - Seaside 3.0.3 released
March 5, 2011   - Seaside 3.0.4 released
April 29, 2011   -VisualWorks 7.8 released containing Seaside 3.0.3
May 22, 2011   - Seaside 3.0.5 released
August 26, 2011 - VASmalltalk 8.5 released containing Seaside 3.0.5
Sept 11, 2011    - Seaside 3.0.6 released

At the time that VisualWorks 7.8 was released, it was only one version
behind.  Even though 3.0.4 was released on March 5th, the time needed to
include it into VisualWorks 7.8 would have made it too risky to include
that version in the 7.8 release.  Given the release schedule, I think
this is perfectly reasonable.

Now, should Cincom be constantly moving Seaside to VisualWorks and
publishing the latest versions in the Cincom Store Repository?  Maybe,
but that's a lot of effort and that effort would probably be better
spent getting the latest version into the next release.

David Buck


giorgio ferraris wrote:
> Hi, Boris,
>
> yes, I supposed this, but this is a sad.
> We (VW users) lost ground on the Gui side (see the amount of
> discussion about this ), and it was because of a strong move on the
> web (seaside) direction. And now Pharo is better for Seaside (To be
> fair, VW has much better infrastructure around and a  speediest  VM,
> at least  up to the time Eliot will close the gap) and Gui is
> enhancing very slowly. The grid control, for example  is still worst
> than the aragon one..
>
> I supposed that Seaside was updated on a regular basis from the Cincom

> gui. Bani did a better job when he was doing the porting as a
> voluntary work...
>
> ciao
>
> Giorgio
>

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