Re: [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude
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Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
 
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Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers!
Cross-posting continues... On 02/10/2014 06:47 PM, Gilad Bracha wrote: > I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair. Muaahaa! Fail! :) (yes, I am actually injecting some humor here) > I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was > *explicitly asked to participate*. I myself noted that Newspeak is > sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a > different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be > inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family. Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, we even share the VM! And I am not sure people understand how important this has been for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has been done through Newspeakish money, right? [SNIP] > I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the > recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have > done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community > (you know who you are) and will continue to do so. Cool! The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other communities (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our community. This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can really... make a mess :) 3 timesRepeat: [ If you do though - *that* would be the true mark of leaders] regards, Göran PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! Move on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now back to hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha! |
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2014-02-10 16:21 GMT-03:00 Göran Krampe <[hidden email]>:
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Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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In reply to this post by Göran Krampe
Hi Göran, Hi Gilad, Hi All,
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Göran Krampe <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi fellow Small-speak-new-talkers!
Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed or reliable.
I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep.
Amen! Eliot
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2014-02-10 18:52 GMT-03:00 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>:
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Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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In reply to this post by Eliot Miranda-2
On 10 February 2014 22:52, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not (clearly it is). The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk projects under ESUG umbrella? If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. |
Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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:) Sorry, not very serious but still: "Newspeak is a new programming language in the tradition of Self and Smalltalk" [http://newspeaklanguage.org/] "Pharo is a clean, innovative, open-source Smalltalk-inspired environment" [http://www.pharo-project.org/home]
Should we ban Pharo projects because it's not Smalltalk, but only "Smalltalk-inspired"? I guess Ruby can also call itself Smalltalk-inspired? According to these definitions, Newspeak is even more Smalltalk-ish then Pharo :)
And seriously, I think we discuss something else, not what Janko wanted to say… But anyway, I think we should simply stop this discussion now, and concentrate on our objectives (GSoC and others). And I hope some time later the topic will calm down, Janko and Stéphane will find a way to revise their positions towards collaboration, handshaking and even friendship for benefits of Smalltalk and all IT community.
-- Best regards, Dennis Schetinin 2014-02-11 2:56 GMT+04:00 Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]>:
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Re: [Pharo-dev] [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
Hi Igor and all!
On 02/10/2014 11:56 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: [SNIP] > Just to give you +1 on the Smalltalk family part. I mean, hell, > we even share the VM! > > And I am not sure people understand how important this has been > for us Squeak/Pharooners, AFAIK a LOT of the work from Eliot has > been done through Newspeakish money, right? > > > Yes. I've worked for Cadence twice. Once in 2007 to 2008 where I > first worked on the Squeak interpreter and added immutability. Form > there, now familiar with VMMaker I went to Qwaq and got to create > Cog. I'm now back at Cadence and able to continue to work on Cog. > In particular, Spur has only been possible because of my boss at > Cadence, Yaron Kashai. At Cadence we're using Newspeak to implement > systems for SoaC integration. Without Newspeak there would be no > Spur. WIthout Newspeak the Cog VM would not be nearly as developed > or reliable. > > I don't want to stoke the flames but I do hope that the community > will consider Newspeak as part of the Smalltalk family. It is > definitely a blood relative. Don't treat it like a black sheep. > > > I am not arguing whether Newspeak belongs to smalltalk family or not > (clearly it is). > The point is that 'S' letter in ESUG stands for Smalltalk, not Newspeak. > (else we should be naming it properly - ENUG). > So, the question is whether any non-smalltalk project is eligible to run > and compete (because there is limited number of slots) with smalltalk > projects under ESUG umbrella? Well, first of all I was actually *not* talking about that particular incident (whatever took place, I have no idea) - my mistake to not make that clear - I merely wanted to note that we should stick together as a family *in general*. Gilad should really feel that IMHO. Nevertheless just like Dennis noted - Pharo doesn't start with an "S" - hell, it even uses the phrase "Smalltalk inspired" to distance itself and make clear that hey, this is not a Smalltalk! And Pharo has Traits so is it "Smalltalk"? :) Amber doesn't even have globals (!) so is Amber "a Smalltalk"? And the fact that Newspeak actually *shares the VM* with Pharo and Squeak - that indicates a pretty strong connection, don't you think? Much stronger than Amber many would argue... And oh, Amber actually *claims* to be a Smalltalk ;) On the other hand it wants to be compatible with Pharo which claims to be only "inspired"... oh, darnit! Just kidding (well, 50% serious perhaps) Igor, I get what you mean, just getting a bit philosophical here, I haven't had my morning coffee... :) > If ESUG would take such road, i bet soon you will find many angry mentors, > who was outvoted/outnumbered by "cool" PHP-MySql web projects. Hehe, ok, PHP is NOT a Smalltalk. ;) regards, Göran PS. I am hacking on protobuf in Pharo 3.0 and noticed cool NB assembler in some places - are such methods creeping into base libraries now? What does that mean for other CPUs? Sorry, for changing subject - feel free to reply under different subject. |
Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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In reply to this post by Göran Krampe
On 2/10/14 4:21 PM, "Göran Krampe" <[hidden email]> wrote: > Cool! > > The Smalltalk community is full of passion. Sometimes we end up flaming > all out - although very seldom I think compared to many other > communities (or so I hear). I have always been proud of that in our > community. > > This time it was sad that it went so far that I fear the main combatants > have a hard time getting through and shaking hands in the end?! It also > shows how two non-native english writers - both with fast fingers - can > really... make a mess :) > > 3 timesRepeat: [ > If you do though - *that* would be the true mark of leaders] > > regards, Göran > > PS. I decided a looooong time ago after a bad clash with Andreas (rest > his soul) that... what the hell, life is too short for political crap! > Move on, have fun, write code. So, spent 10 minutes on this post - now > back to hacking protobuf support for Squeak and Pharo! Yiha! > Stop fight and start coding fellows .... Edgar |
Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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In reply to this post by Göran Krampe
On 11 February 2014 10:07, Göran Krampe <[hidden email]> wrote: But as to me it is clear example, where ESUG should draw a line.Hi Igor and all! Nothing philosophical here. Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new language. Different syntax, different semantics.The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any difference. There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'? -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. |
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Il 11/02/2014 16:43, Igor Stasenko ha scritto:
> > Nothing philosophical here. > Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new > language. > Different syntax, different semantics. > The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any > difference. > There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. > Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to > run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'? I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization. If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer. Paolo |
Re: Smalltalk dialects and GSoC
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On 11.02.2014, at 17:14, Paolo Bonzini <[hidden email]> wrote: > Il 11/02/2014 16:43, Igor Stasenko ha scritto: >> >> Nothing philosophical here. >> Pharo, Amber are smalltalk dialects. Newspeak is not. It is brand new >> language. >> Different syntax, different semantics. >> The fact that it uses VM which can run smalltalk doesn't makes any >> difference. >> There's a number of Smalltalks impemented on top of JVM, and CLR platforms. >> Following your logic, then such implementations should be eligible to >> run under 'java/C# GSoC umbrella'? > > I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization. > > If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to get into the program would be slimmer. > > Paolo - Bert - |
smime.p7s (5K)
Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk dialects and GSoC
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Il 11/02/2014 17:53, Bert Freudenberg ha scritto:
>> I think a Newspeak<->Smalltalk translator, written in Smalltalk, would be eligible for GSoC under the ESUG organization. >> >> If it were to be written in Newspeak, I would still want to have it >> in the ideas list. Perhaps the student itself could propose to use >> Smalltalk instead, or it could be a backup in case we lose a student due >> to conflicts with other organizations. However, the chances for it to >> get into the program would be slimmer. > > How about a project for a new or extended Smalltalk VM? Written in > non-Smalltalk, but running a Smalltalk, e.g. Squeak? Of course, everything must be considered on a case-by-case basis. There is no hard and fast rule. With my GNU Smalltalk hat on, I would redirect VM ideas to the GNU organization, and only use ESUG slots for projects that have more porting potential. But I understand that not all dialects have the same opportunity. Paolo |
Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk dialects and GSoC
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On 11 February 2014 18:08, Paolo Bonzini <[hidden email]> wrote: Il 11/02/2014 17:53, Bert Freudenberg ha scritto: Right. I didn't said it's easy to correctly/perfectly draw a line. But you have to draw it.. and once you did, you will always have chances to find someone left aboard and screaming about bias and blatantly unethical behavior, instead of peacefully discussing and providing arguments. With my GNU Smalltalk hat on, I would redirect VM ideas to the GNU organization, and only use ESUG slots for projects that have more porting potential. But I understand that not all dialects have the same opportunity. No, i think any Smalltalk VM is clearly a good topic to run under ESUG umbrella.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. |
Re: [Esug-list] Smalltalk dialects and GSoC
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Il 11/02/2014 18:29, Igor Stasenko ha scritto:
> > Right. I didn't said it's easy to correctly/perfectly draw a line. But > you have to draw it.. and once you did, you will always have chances to > find someone left aboard and screaming about bias and blatantly > unethical behavior, instead of peacefully discussing and providing > arguments. > > > With my GNU Smalltalk hat on, I would redirect VM ideas to the GNU > organization, and only use ESUG slots for projects that have more > porting potential. But I understand that not all dialects have the > same opportunity. > > No, i think any Smalltalk VM is clearly a good topic to run under ESUG > umbrella. Exactly---that would be *my* choice as GNU Smalltalk maintainer. Other Smalltalk VMs are definitely welcome. Paolo |
Re: Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
Hi all, I was trying to keep aways from the discussion but now I am directly involved as the "co-admin" of GSoC 2010. First, Janko, I don't see at all your point here. Whether it was true or not, making this PUBLIC and NOW does not make sense. It only makes clear the only thing you want to do is to bash Stef. So it is clearly something personal.
Second...I will tell you what I remember. I do remember Stef suggesting/complaining about Newspeak as well as other none-very-smalltalk-related projects (I don't remember which were the other). I remember Stef was not the only one, but most of the mentors agreed to the same. And in fact, it made sense. WE wanted to use ESUG infrastructure. That means using its resources, its setup, its administrator, accountant, etc. Do you think all this setup comes from free? So....even if it was not the case, but imagine for a second that ESUG has certain thoughts about being used as the GSoC organization, then I think we should listen and discuss to get to an agreement. Otherwise, it is easy, use your own organization and that's all. I am NOT saying we should do what ESUG says.... I am just saying ESUG board opinions should be considered along with the community if ESUG wants to be used as Mentoring Organization. Same reason if we would like to use Newspeak for some Smalltalk-related projects.
Third, I never ever remember Stef "forcing" me to do that. I cannot remember more than a "recommendation". If there is something I did (I do not even remember), I did it myself.
But again... I really don't understand at all why this discussion now.... On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote: Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com |
Re: [Esug-list] [squeak-dev] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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Il 11/02/2014 22:42, Mariano Martinez Peck ha scritto:
> > First, [...] > > Second, [...] > > Third, [...] Fourth, it was the first time that ESUG participated to the Summer of Code, and the first time that Janko and you were administrating it. Errare humanum est. Perseverare, autem, diabolicum... Paolo |
what is smalltalk? (was: Smalltalk dialects and GSoC)
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In reply to this post by Paolo Bonzini-2
Any discussion of what is Smalltalk and what isn't can't get very far
without first clearly defining a few things. Are we assuming that "Smalltalk" and "Smalltalk-80" are equivalent? Does the ANSI Smalltalk standard play any role in the discussion? Even if we make our assumptions clear, there is still a lot of subjectivity involved. Many people consider Scheme to be a different language than Lisp, but its creators do not and the famous "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" course uses the name "Lisp" exclusively except for one initial note saying that the Lisp they use is Scheme. On the other hand, everybody can easily agree that Scheme is not a Common Lisp. It seems silly to have a definition of "Smalltalk" that would exclude Smalltalk-72 to Smalltalk-76, and yet Smalltalk-72 is more different from what we have now than NewSpeak (which I would not call a Smalltalk). So perhaps we should have such a definition. On the other hand, at one point I got tired of people considering Self to be a different language so I renamed my project from Self/R to Neo Smalltalk. In the Self 4.0 "images" that included Mario Wolczko's patches you could file in all of the GNU Smalltalk libraries and they would work perfectly. -- Jecel |
Re: what is smalltalk? (was: Smalltalk dialects and GSoC)
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In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
On 11-02-2014, at 5:02 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. <[hidden email]> wrote: > Any discussion of what is Smalltalk and what isn't can't get very far > without first clearly defining a few things. In the same way that Filk is music performed by people that consider themselves to be Filkers, I would suggest that maybe Smalltalk is what is written by people that consider themselves to be Smalltalkers. Is everything an object? Do objects have classes? Do objects communicate by sending messages and getting back results? Is an image saved and restarted? Can you forget about having to deal with memory allocation? If the answer is yes to those questions then it’s probably a Smalltalk. Oh and course the big one - do I like it? tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Useful Latin Phrases:- Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est. = Yes, that is a very large amount of corn. |
Re: [Esug-list] [squeak-dev] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)
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In reply to this post by Paolo Bonzini-2
Except that I’m now the devil from the eyes of Gilad. Superb.
So the burn strategy of Janko worked perfectly. I do not know what he gained but we all lost. He seems to be a smart guy with which everybody wants to work with in the future. Michele also told me that: "you should not shit where you eat." and I think that this is an important point. > Fourth, it was the first time that ESUG participated to the Summer of Code, and the first time that Janko and you were administrating it. Errare humanum est. > > Perseverare, autem, diabolicum... > > Paolo > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
Re: what is smalltalk? (was: Smalltalk dialects and GSoC)
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In reply to this post by timrowledge
On 12 February 2014 00:22, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 11-02-2014, at 5:02 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Any discussion of what is Smalltalk and what isn't can't get very far >> without first clearly defining a few things. > > In the same way that Filk is music performed by people that consider themselves to be Filkers, I would suggest that maybe Smalltalk is what is written by people that consider themselves to be Smalltalkers. > > Is everything an object? Do objects have classes? Do objects communicate by sending messages and getting back results? Is an image saved and restarted? Can you forget about having to deal with memory allocation? If the answer is yes to those questions then it’s probably a Smalltalk. Of course, this makes Common Lisp a Smalltalk :) (They certainly have a whole bunch of characteristics in common, which given Smalltalk's influences should not be a surprise.) (And no, I don't seriously consider Common Lisp a Smalltalk, just in case anyone thinks that I do.) > Oh and course the big one - do I like it? Why, yes I do! (To both!) frank |
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