Re: [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

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Re: [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

Janko Mivšek
Dear all,

First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be
blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and misguided.

Facts namely are:

1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while
   ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any report
   back to GSoC mentors,

2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for
   paying extra projects [2][3].

Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is:

Income: GSoC 2012  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
        GSoC 2013  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
        ------------------------------
                             13.000 USD

Expenses:
        Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD

Difference: + 4.000 USD

If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't loose any
money but gain 4.000 USD.

Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to apologize to
you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin!

Janko

[1]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg
[2]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8
[3]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw


Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse:

> Hi all,
>
> ------------
> FACTS
>
> As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer.
> So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC
> projects in 2013.
>
> ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted by Google.
> In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and Benjamin Arezki.
>
> All in all we paid:
> - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular GSOC) each
> projects
> - Serge trip to Mentor summit
>
> And we received 5552EUR from Google
>
> so yes we lost ~6582EUR
> That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we
> sponsorized 3.
>
> I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc mentor
> summit because it participates to the fact that Google recognizes ESUG
> ang gives slots the next year.
>
> It is alos important to note dates.
> ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google.
> It would not be possible to do it without ESUG.
>
> ------------
> FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY:
>
> As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my *own* time
> and it takes a lot!
> I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all falvors!)
> is a really great language that should be more widespread.
>
> I also completely open to discussions.
> The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status.
> I can do errors too.
> So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK!
>
> I cannot admit that:
>
> - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly directed
> against the treasurer so me.
> And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I hide or
> steal money make me think that I should better quit.
>
> - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would have done a
> mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK ME for
> DOING THIS BORING TASK!  and then I can correct mistakes if any
>
> - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started yesterday and I
> am spending my week-end with my kids
>
>
> I am really fed up with this kind of attitude.
> Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together
> if any.
> But I think it will never happen...
>
> #Luc
> The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end in bad mood
>


--
Janko Mivšek
Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team

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Re: [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

philippeback
Guys,

From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in the kindergarten.

All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward. Backwards, there is a fair chance.

Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk.

Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to fight over for an European org... (rolleyes).

Phil




On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Janko,

I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4 extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). 
So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate last year BUT we were willing to spend it.

Luc


2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>:
Dear all,

First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be
blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and misguided.

Facts namely are:

1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while
   ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any report
   back to GSoC mentors,

2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for
   paying extra projects [2][3].

Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is:

Income: GSoC 2012  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
        GSoC 2013  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
        ------------------------------
                             13.000 USD

Expenses:
        Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD

Difference: + 4.000 USD

If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't loose any
money but gain 4.000 USD.

Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to apologize to
you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin!

Janko

[1]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg
[2]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8
[3]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw


Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse:
> Hi all,
>
> ------------
> FACTS
>
> As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer.
> So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC
> projects in 2013.
>
> ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted by Google.
> In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and Benjamin Arezki.
>
> All in all we paid:
> - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular GSOC) each
> projects
> - Serge trip to Mentor summit
>
> And we received 5552EUR from Google
>
> so yes we lost ~6582EUR
> That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we
> sponsorized 3.
>
> I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc mentor
> summit because it participates to the fact that Google recognizes ESUG
> ang gives slots the next year.
>
> It is alos important to note dates.
> ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google.
> It would not be possible to do it without ESUG.
>
> ------------
> FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY:
>
> As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my *own* time
> and it takes a lot!
> I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all falvors!)
> is a really great language that should be more widespread.
>
> I also completely open to discussions.
> The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status.
> I can do errors too.
> So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK!
>
> I cannot admit that:
>
> - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly directed
> against the treasurer so me.
> And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I hide or
> steal money make me think that I should better quit.
>
> - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would have done a
> mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK ME for
> DOING THIS BORING TASK!  and then I can correct mistakes if any
>
> - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started yesterday and I
> am spending my week-end with my kids
>
>
> I am really fed up with this kind of attitude.
> Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together
> if any.
> But I think it will never happen...
>
> #Luc
> The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end in bad mood
>


--
Janko Mivšek
Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team




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Re: [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

Janko Mivšek
Phil,

This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because
it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases
blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members. Which is
certainly bad for our community on long term.

Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a
community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into
murky waters more and more.

Best regards
Janko

Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše [hidden email]:

> Guys,
>
> From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in
> the kindergarten.
>
> All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward.
> Backwards, there is a fair chance.
>
> Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk.
>
> Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to
> fight over for an European org... (rolleyes).
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Janko,
>
>     I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4
>     extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave
>     up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin).
>     So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate
>     last year BUT we were willing to spend it.
>
>     Luc
>
>
>     2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
>         Dear all,
>
>         First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be
>         blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and
>         misguided.
>
>         Facts namely are:
>
>         1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while
>            ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any
>         report
>            back to GSoC mentors,
>
>         2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for
>            paying extra projects [2][3].
>
>         Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is:
>
>         Income: GSoC 2012  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
>                 GSoC 2013  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
>                 ------------------------------
>                                      13.000 USD
>
>         Expenses:
>                 Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD
>
>         Difference: + 4.000 USD
>
>         If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't
>         loose any
>         money but gain 4.000 USD.
>
>         Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to
>         apologize to
>         you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin!
>
>         Janko
>
>         [1]
>         https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg
>         [2]
>         https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8
>         [3]
>         https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw
>
>
>         Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse:
>         > Hi all,
>         >
>         > ------------
>         > FACTS
>         >
>         > As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer.
>         > So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC
>         > projects in 2013.
>         >
>         > ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted
>         by Google.
>         > In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and
>         Benjamin Arezki.
>         >
>         > All in all we paid:
>         > - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular
>         GSOC) each
>         > projects
>         > - Serge trip to Mentor summit
>         >
>         > And we received 5552EUR from Google
>         >
>         > so yes we lost ~6582EUR
>         > That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we
>         > sponsorized 3.
>         >
>         > I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc
>         mentor
>         > summit because it participates to the fact that Google
>         recognizes ESUG
>         > ang gives slots the next year.
>         >
>         > It is alos important to note dates.
>         > ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google.
>         > It would not be possible to do it without ESUG.
>         >
>         > ------------
>         > FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY:
>         >
>         > As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my
>         *own* time
>         > and it takes a lot!
>         > I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all
>         falvors!)
>         > is a really great language that should be more widespread.
>         >
>         > I also completely open to discussions.
>         > The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status.
>         > I can do errors too.
>         > So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK!
>         >
>         > I cannot admit that:
>         >
>         > - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly
>         directed
>         > against the treasurer so me.
>         > And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I
>         hide or
>         > steal money make me think that I should better quit.
>         >
>         > - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would
>         have done a
>         > mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK
>         ME for
>         > DOING THIS BORING TASK!  and then I can correct mistakes if any
>         >
>         > - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started
>         yesterday and I
>         > am spending my week-end with my kids
>         >
>         >
>         > I am really fed up with this kind of attitude.
>         > Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the
>         problems together
>         > if any.
>         > But I think it will never happen...
>         >
>         > #Luc
>         > The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end
>         in bad mood
>         >
>
>
>         --
>         Janko Mivšek
>         Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team
>
>
>

--
Janko Mivšek
Svetovalec za informatiko
Eranova d.o.o.
Ljubljana, Slovenija
www.eranova.si
tel:  01 514 22 55
faks: 01 514 22 56
gsm: 031 674 565

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Re: [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

philippeback
Janko,

From what I know from good business practices is that what helps in keeping things in order is good financial management and transparency.

So, the general ledger should be made accessible so things are clear on that front.

For the Google story, upfront payment by ESUG while waiting for Google money should have been registered with postings that reflected that (like with an account on "expected revenue from Google") and balanced against it.

If one would spend money beyond the credit limits, there would be an issue. So, escalation should be taking place to decide.

There seems to be a board, and the board ultimately decides on that front.
Which it apparently did.

Whoever is not happy with that decision will at one point accept it as this is the top decision point. Or start a revolution, split, or whatever.

There are always things going on behind the curtain. Politics is a fact of life. I you have a personal gripe with some members, you put the dead rat on the table. Now is it time time speak up about who/what/why and discuss that with them.

Now, the Smalltalk community appears to be fragmented, and the Pharo|Squeak technology, even if very cool, is currently not helping me much on the revenue making front. My bottom line isn't booking more that EUR 15K on Pharo related sales. Not that I am not pushing. I'd love to be putting decent bread on the table through Pharo.

FWIW, when it comes to current trends like Internet of Things, BigData [Hadoop stuff], and Mobile, Smalltalk is at ground zero given the ecosystem. So, fighting internally like that isn't getting us forward while everything is swooshing past.

Phil

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:
Phil,

This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because
it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases
blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members. Which is
certainly bad for our community on long term.

Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a
community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into
murky waters more and more.

Best regards
Janko

Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše [hidden email]:
> Guys,
>
> From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in
> the kindergarten.
>
> All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward.
> Backwards, there is a fair chance.
>
> Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk.
>
> Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to
> fight over for an European org... (rolleyes).
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Janko,
>
>     I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4
>     extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave
>     up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin).
>     So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate
>     last year BUT we were willing to spend it.
>
>     Luc
>
>
>     2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
>         Dear all,
>
>         First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be
>         blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and
>         misguided.
>
>         Facts namely are:
>
>         1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while
>            ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any
>         report
>            back to GSoC mentors,
>
>         2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for
>            paying extra projects [2][3].
>
>         Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is:
>
>         Income: GSoC 2012  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
>                 GSoC 2013  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
>                 ------------------------------
>                                      13.000 USD
>
>         Expenses:
>                 Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD
>
>         Difference: + 4.000 USD
>
>         If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't
>         loose any
>         money but gain 4.000 USD.
>
>         Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to
>         apologize to
>         you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin!
>
>         Janko
>
>         [1]
>         https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg
>         [2]
>         https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8
>         [3]
>         https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw
>
>
>         Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse:
>         > Hi all,
>         >
>         > ------------
>         > FACTS
>         >
>         > As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer.
>         > So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC
>         > projects in 2013.
>         >
>         > ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted
>         by Google.
>         > In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and
>         Benjamin Arezki.
>         >
>         > All in all we paid:
>         > - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular
>         GSOC) each
>         > projects
>         > - Serge trip to Mentor summit
>         >
>         > And we received 5552EUR from Google
>         >
>         > so yes we lost ~6582EUR
>         > That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we
>         > sponsorized 3.
>         >
>         > I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc
>         mentor
>         > summit because it participates to the fact that Google
>         recognizes ESUG
>         > ang gives slots the next year.
>         >
>         > It is alos important to note dates.
>         > ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google.
>         > It would not be possible to do it without ESUG.
>         >
>         > ------------
>         > FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY:
>         >
>         > As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my
>         *own* time
>         > and it takes a lot!
>         > I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all
>         falvors!)
>         > is a really great language that should be more widespread.
>         >
>         > I also completely open to discussions.
>         > The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status.
>         > I can do errors too.
>         > So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK!
>         >
>         > I cannot admit that:
>         >
>         > - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly
>         directed
>         > against the treasurer so me.
>         > And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I
>         hide or
>         > steal money make me think that I should better quit.
>         >
>         > - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would
>         have done a
>         > mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK
>         ME for
>         > DOING THIS BORING TASK!  and then I can correct mistakes if any
>         >
>         > - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started
>         yesterday and I
>         > am spending my week-end with my kids
>         >
>         >
>         > I am really fed up with this kind of attitude.
>         > Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the
>         problems together
>         > if any.
>         > But I think it will never happen...
>         >
>         > #Luc
>         > The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end
>         in bad mood
>         >
>
>
>         --
>         Janko Mivšek
>         Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team
>
>
>

--
Janko Mivšek
Svetovalec za informatiko
Eranova d.o.o.
Ljubljana, Slovenija
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Re: [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek

If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't loose any
money but gain 4.000 USD.

This is what I thought when luc told me that we lost money. Now he did not show to he ESUG board the 
exact details because he did not crawl yet in all the bills. 
Now if you check the old in the mailing-list  I even said that there was no problem for 2000 Euros esug would cover that if this cover an extra student. 


From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Ducasse?= <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
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Message-Id: <[hidden email]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.3 \(1503\))
X-Smtp-Server: smtp.inria.fr:sducasse
Subject: Re: [gsoc-mentors] Inform the students of four extra projects!
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 13:34:36 +0200
X-Universally-Unique-Identifier: 89665803-9c98-4385-80b9-e5c1c3e1e418
In-Reply-To: <[hidden email]>


--Apple-Mail=_A78B91E4-981F-4B83-9067-420161886C2C
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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charset=windows-1252

Guys

ESUG can solve that. we should avoid to spend time on that for 2000 =
Euros.


Stef
On May 28, 2013, at 1:06 PM, Janko Miv=9Aek <[hidden email]> =
wrote:


So Janko I would be grateful that you STOP.

Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to apologize to
you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin!

Who are those guys?

Seriously you are getting really over. 

Stef


Janko

[1]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg
[2]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8
[3]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw


Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse:
Hi all,

------------
FACTS

As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer.
So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC
projects in 2013. 

ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted by Google.
In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and Benjamin Arezki.

All in all we paid:
- 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular GSOC) each
projects 
- Serge trip to Mentor summit

And we received 5552EUR from Google

so yes we lost ~6582EUR
That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we
sponsorized 3.

I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc mentor
summit because it participates to the fact that Google recognizes ESUG
ang gives slots the next year.

It is alos important to note dates.
ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. 
It would not be possible to do it without ESUG.

------------
FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY:

As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my *own* time
and it takes a lot!
I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all falvors!)
is a really great language that should be more widespread. 

I also completely open to discussions.
The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status.
I can do errors too.
So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK!

I cannot admit that:

- Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly directed
against the treasurer so me. 
And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I hide or
steal money make me think that I should better quit.

- Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would have done a
mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK ME for
DOING THIS BORING TASK!  and then I can correct mistakes if any

- People wants an answer fast, this conversation started yesterday and I
am spending my week-end with my kids


I am really fed up with this kind of attitude.
Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together
if any.
But I think it will never happen...

#Luc
The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end in bad mood



-- 
Janko Mivšek
Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team



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Re: [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
Paolo

I did not discuss yet with the ESUG board but we are sick of all this. 
Can you really run the GSOC this year administratively because I think that ESUG should stop to be a bank for it?
I think that Janko is getting off. We cannot work with a person like that. I will make us lose too much energy. 
Like that the mentors will be free to do whatever they want to do.

Stef


Dear all,

First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be
blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and misguided.

Facts namely are:

1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while
  ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any report
  back to GSoC mentors,

2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for
  paying extra projects [2][3].

Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is:

Income: GSoC 2012  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
       GSoC 2013  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
       ------------------------------
                            13.000 USD

Expenses:
       Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD

Difference: + 4.000 USD

If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't loose any
money but gain 4.000 USD.

Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to apologize to
you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin!

Janko

[1]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg
[2]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8
[3]
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw


Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse:
Hi all,

------------
FACTS

As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer.
So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC
projects in 2013. 

ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted by Google.
In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and Benjamin Arezki.

All in all we paid:
- 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular GSOC) each
projects 
- Serge trip to Mentor summit

And we received 5552EUR from Google

so yes we lost ~6582EUR
That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we
sponsorized 3.

I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc mentor
summit because it participates to the fact that Google recognizes ESUG
ang gives slots the next year.

It is alos important to note dates.
ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google. 
It would not be possible to do it without ESUG.

------------
FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY:

As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my *own* time
and it takes a lot!
I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all falvors!)
is a really great language that should be more widespread. 

I also completely open to discussions.
The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status.
I can do errors too.
So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK!

I cannot admit that:

- Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly directed
against the treasurer so me. 
And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I hide or
steal money make me think that I should better quit.

- Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would have done a
mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK ME for
DOING THIS BORING TASK!  and then I can correct mistakes if any

- People wants an answer fast, this conversation started yesterday and I
am spending my week-end with my kids


I am really fed up with this kind of attitude.
Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the problems together
if any.
But I think it will never happen...

#Luc
The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end in bad mood



-- 
Janko Mivšek
Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team



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Re: [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

Paolo Bonzini-2
Il 10/02/2014 10:16, Stéphane Ducasse ha scritto:
> Paolo
>
> I did not discuss yet with the ESUG board but we are sick of all this.
> Can you really run the GSOC this year administratively because I think
> that ESUG should stop to be a bank for it?
> I think that Janko is getting off. We cannot work with a person like
> that. I will make us lose too much energy.
> Like that the mentors will be free to do whatever they want to do.

Stef,

please calm down.  I *hope* that you wanted to make this mail private.
Public mailing lists are not the right place for this language, much
less with such a wide crosspost.

I already mentioned that all I care about is to have students funded by
Google and working in Smalltalk.  ESUG will get $500 per student, and
can use them to send more people to the mentor summit or whatever else
they prefer---I don't want to have *anything* to do with how ESUG spends
their GSoC money.

Paolo

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Re: [Esug-list] [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

Damien Cassou
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because
> it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases
> blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members.

I thank you for your efforts running the GSoC marathon every year.

Nevertheless, as a member of the board I feel insulted again by you
Janko. I'm tired spending hours doing work for everyone and get such a
message as an answer

ESUG might have done a mistake giving 5000€ to the students and not
the amount that people voted for. I should have paid more attention to
that and I apologize. That's all I will apologize for.

Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by
"blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical?

Last time we talked about the representation of the Smalltalk
community in the ESUG board, I asked people from other communities to
apply and come work with us
(http://lists.esug.org/pipermail/esug-list_lists.esug.org/2012-July/001849.html).
Nobody applied! I will ask again, thanks for the remainder. Who is
going to take care of ESUG if we focus on taking care of Pharo?

Please stop insulting people. If you want to stop organizing the GSoC
for the Smalltalk community just say it clearly and we will all thank
you for the effort you have put in during this last years. But if you
want to continue, please do it with ESUG as this is what the ESUG
community seems to want if I analyse the answers you got to the recent
threads.

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without
losing enthusiasm."
Winston Churchill

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Re: The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

Janko Mivšek
Hi Damien,

First, I do not insult anyone and certainly praise the ESUG and you guys
for all work you are doing. On the other side I cannot go over bad
things happening like this one. Unacceptable behavior must be exposed
and treated accordingly, as I said this is needed for any community to
stay healthy long-term.

> ESUG might have done a mistake giving 5000€ to the students and not
> the amount that people voted for. I should have paid more attention to
> that and I apologize. That's all I will apologize for.

Thanks for your apologize, it is appreciated. Still I think we deserve
an apologize from those who spreaded privately and publicly the 'we lost
money' claim.

> Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by
> "blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical?

This is story from GSoC 2010, a first GSoC I run as admin. Because it is
so blatant, I give to the main actor a first word, then I'll explain and
put on table my side of the story and arguments.

In any case, this story is main reason  that I started then already
pushing Smalltalk GSoC to be as independent as possible, with current
rename to Smalltalk proposal as a culmination.

Best regards
Janko


Dne 10. 02. 2014 10:40, piše Damien Cassou:

> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because
>> it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases
>> blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members.
>
> I thank you for your efforts running the GSoC marathon every year.
>
> Nevertheless, as a member of the board I feel insulted again by you
> Janko. I'm tired spending hours doing work for everyone and get such a
> message as an answer
>
>
> Now, I want to have details about your message. What do you mean by
> "blatantly unethical behavior"? At which point have we been unethical?
>
> Last time we talked about the representation of the Smalltalk
> community in the ESUG board, I asked people from other communities to
> apply and come work with us
> (http://lists.esug.org/pipermail/esug-list_lists.esug.org/2012-July/001849.html).
> Nobody applied! I will ask again, thanks for the remainder. Who is
> going to take care of ESUG if we focus on taking care of Pharo?
>
> Please stop insulting people. If you want to stop organizing the GSoC
> for the Smalltalk community just say it clearly and we will all thank
> you for the effort you have put in during this last years. But if you
> want to continue, please do it with ESUG as this is what the ESUG
> community seems to want if I analyse the answers you got to the recent
> threads.
>

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Re: [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek


Phil,

This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because
it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases
blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members. Which is
certainly bad for our community on long term.



Janko CAN YOU STOP!

"blatantly unethical behavior”
Really

Stef



Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a
community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into
murky waters more and more.

Best regards
Janko

Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše [hidden email]:
Guys,

From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in
the kindergarten.

All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward.
Backwards, there is a fair chance.

Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk.

Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to
fight over for an European org... (rolleyes).

Phil




On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <[hidden email]
<[hidden email]>> wrote:

   Hi Janko,

   I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4
   extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave
   up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin). 
   So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate
   last year BUT we were willing to spend it.

   Luc


   2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]
   <[hidden email]>>:

       Dear all,

       First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be
       blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and
       misguided.

       Facts namely are:

       1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1] while
          ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any
       report
          back to GSoC mentors,

       2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the pool for
          paying extra projects [2][3].

       Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is:

       Income: GSoC 2012  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
               GSoC 2013  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
               ------------------------------
                                    13.000 USD

       Expenses:
               Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD

       Difference: + 4.000 USD

       If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't
       loose any
       money but gain 4.000 USD.

       Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to
       apologize to
       you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin!

       Janko

       [1]
       https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg
       [2]
       https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8
       [3]
       https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw


       Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse:
Hi all,

------------
FACTS

As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer.
So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC
projects in 2013.

ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted
       by Google.
In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and
       Benjamin Arezki.

All in all we paid:
- 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular
       GSOC) each
projects
- Serge trip to Mentor summit

And we received 5552EUR from Google

so yes we lost ~6582EUR
That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we
sponsorized 3.

I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc
       mentor
summit because it participates to the fact that Google
       recognizes ESUG
ang gives slots the next year.

It is alos important to note dates.
ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google.
It would not be possible to do it without ESUG.

------------
FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY:

As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my
       *own* time
and it takes a lot!
I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all
       falvors!)
is a really great language that should be more widespread.

I also completely open to discussions.
The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status.
I can do errors too.
So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK!

I cannot admit that:

- Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly
       directed
against the treasurer so me.
And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I
       hide or
steal money make me think that I should better quit.

- Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would
       have done a
mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK
       ME for
DOING THIS BORING TASK!  and then I can correct mistakes if any

- People wants an answer fast, this conversation started
       yesterday and I
am spending my week-end with my kids


I am really fed up with this kind of attitude.
Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the
       problems together
if any.
But I think it will never happen...

#Luc
The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end
       in bad mood



       --
       Janko Mivšek
       Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team




-- 
Janko Mivšek
Svetovalec za informatiko
Eranova d.o.o.
Ljubljana, Slovenija
www.eranova.si
tel:  01 514 22 55
faks: 01 514 22 56
gsm: 031 674 565



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Re: [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Paolo Bonzini-2
Paolo

we are
> blatantly unethical behavior
so we cannot do more.

Stef



>> Paolo
>>
>> I did not discuss yet with the ESUG board but we are sick of all this.
>> Can you really run the GSOC this year administratively because I think
>> that ESUG should stop to be a bank for it?
>> I think that Janko is getting off. We cannot work with a person like
>> that. I will make us lose too much energy.
>> Like that the mentors will be free to do whatever they want to do.
>
> Stef,
>
> please calm down.  I *hope* that you wanted to make this mail private. Public mailing lists are not the right place for this language, much less with such a wide crosspost.
>
> I already mentioned that all I care about is to have students funded by Google and working in Smalltalk.  ESUG will get $500 per student, and can use them to send more people to the mentor summit or whatever else they prefer---I don't want to have *anything* to do with how ESUG spends their GSoC money.
>
> Paolo
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email].
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


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Re: [Pharo-dev] [gsoc-mentors] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

Marcus Denker-4
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

On 10 Feb 2014, at 11:08, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:



Phil,

This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community, because
it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes, and in some cases
blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board members. Which is
certainly bad for our community on long term.



Janko CAN YOU STOP!

"blatantly unethical behavior”
Really


I propose we do at the next ESUG the following:

- the general assembly sets up and vote for a small group
  (3-5 people?)
- they look into the issues
- then report back to the general assembly

It will of course been taken care that this gremium is independed.

Because via email this is really not going to work.

Marcus


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The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

Janko Mivšek
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Dne 10. 02. 2014 11:08, piše Stéphane Ducasse:

> Janko CAN YOU STOP!
>
> "blatantly unethical behavior”
> Really
>
> Stef

Stef, we are waiting to you. Will you tell us your part of the story
about your GSoC 2010 act or shall I start by myself?

Janko

>> Phil,

>> This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community,
>> because it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes,
>> and in some cases blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board
>> members. Which is certainly bad for our community on long term.

>> Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a
>> community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into
>> murky waters more and more.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Janko
>>
>> Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše [hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>:
>>> Guys,
>>>
>>> From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in
>>> the kindergarten.
>>>
>>> All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward.
>>> Backwards, there is a fair chance.
>>>
>>> Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk.
>>>
>>> Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to
>>> fight over for an European org... (rolleyes).
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <[hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>    Hi Janko,
>>>
>>>    I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4
>>>    extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave
>>>    up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin).
>>>    So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate
>>>    last year BUT we were willing to spend it.
>>>
>>>    Luc
>>>
>>>
>>>    2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>>>
>>>        Dear all,
>>>
>>>        First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be
>>>        blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and
>>>        misguided.
>>>
>>>        Facts namely are:
>>>
>>>        1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1]
>>> while
>>>           ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any
>>>        report
>>>           back to GSoC mentors,
>>>
>>>        2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the
>>> pool for
>>>           paying extra projects [2][3].
>>>
>>>        Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is:
>>>
>>>        Income: GSoC 2012  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
>>>                GSoC 2013  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
>>>                ------------------------------
>>>                                     13.000 USD
>>>
>>>        Expenses:
>>>                Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD
>>>
>>>        Difference: + 4.000 USD
>>>
>>>        If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't
>>>        loose any
>>>        money but gain 4.000 USD.
>>>
>>>        Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to
>>>        apologize to
>>>        you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin!
>>>
>>>        Janko
>>>
>>>        [1]
>>>        https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg
>>>        [2]
>>>        https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8
>>>        [3]
>>>        https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw
>>>
>>>
>>>        Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> ------------
>>>> FACTS
>>>>
>>>> As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer.
>>>> So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC
>>>> projects in 2013.
>>>>
>>>> ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted
>>>        by Google.
>>>> In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and
>>>        Benjamin Arezki.
>>>>
>>>> All in all we paid:
>>>> - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular
>>>        GSOC) each
>>>> projects
>>>> - Serge trip to Mentor summit
>>>>
>>>> And we received 5552EUR from Google
>>>>
>>>> so yes we lost ~6582EUR
>>>> That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we
>>>> sponsorized 3.
>>>>
>>>> I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc
>>>        mentor
>>>> summit because it participates to the fact that Google
>>>        recognizes ESUG
>>>> ang gives slots the next year.
>>>>
>>>> It is alos important to note dates.
>>>> ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google.
>>>> It would not be possible to do it without ESUG.
>>>>
>>>> ------------
>>>> FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY:
>>>>
>>>> As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my
>>>        *own* time
>>>> and it takes a lot!
>>>> I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all
>>>        falvors!)
>>>> is a really great language that should be more widespread.
>>>>
>>>> I also completely open to discussions.
>>>> The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status.
>>>> I can do errors too.
>>>> So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK!
>>>>
>>>> I cannot admit that:
>>>>
>>>> - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly
>>>        directed
>>>> against the treasurer so me.
>>>> And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I
>>>        hide or
>>>> steal money make me think that I should better quit.
>>>>
>>>> - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would
>>>        have done a
>>>> mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK
>>>        ME for
>>>> DOING THIS BORING TASK!  and then I can correct mistakes if any
>>>>
>>>> - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started
>>>        yesterday and I
>>>> am spending my week-end with my kids
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am really fed up with this kind of attitude.
>>>> Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the
>>>        problems together
>>>> if any.
>>>> But I think it will never happen...
>>>>
>>>> #Luc
>>>> The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end
>>>        in bad mood


--
Janko Mivšek
Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team

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Re: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

Stephan Eggermont-3
I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin
and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation.

Stephan Eggermont




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Re: [Esug-list] The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

EstebanLM
I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private.

Esteban

On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin
> and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation.
>
> Stephan Eggermont
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org


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Re: The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek

On 10 Feb 2014, at 11:57, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dne 10. 02. 2014 11:08, piše Stéphane Ducasse:
>
>> Janko CAN YOU STOP!
>>
>> "blatantly unethical behavior”
>> Really
>>
>> Stef
>
> Stef, we are waiting to you. Will you tell us your part of the story
> about your GSoC 2010 act or shall I start by myself?

What?

What are you talking about?
Janko can you stop to systematically insult me because you are.

Stef


>
> Janko
>
>>> Phil,
>
>>> This matter is actually very important for Smalltalk community,
>>> because it exposes nontransparent, meddling behind the scenes,
>>> and in some cases blatantly unethical behavior of some ESUG board
>>> members. Which is certainly bad for our community on long term.
>
>>> Such matters need to be clarified and some conclusions to be made for a
>>> community to preserve health and go on. Otherwise you are drowning into
>>> murky waters more and more.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Janko
>>>
>>> Dne 10. 02. 2014 09:12, piše [hidden email]
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>:
>>>> Guys,
>>>>
>>>> From the outside it just looks like a couple of spoiled kids battling in
>>>> the kindergarten.
>>>>
>>>> All of this is not moving Smalltalk and Pharo any single bit forward.
>>>> Backwards, there is a fair chance.
>>>>
>>>> Now, could you take this discussion elsewhere? Pick up a phone and talk.
>>>>
>>>> Who cares if anyone is right? Oh yeah, EUR 4K, what a huge amount to
>>>> fight over for an European org... (rolleyes).
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 8:29 AM, Luc Fabresse <[hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   Hi Janko,
>>>>
>>>>   I do not have all numbers at hand now but in 2013 there were 4
>>>>   extra-GSOC but we paid only 3 because one student gave
>>>>   up (Jean-Baptiste Beuzelin).
>>>>   So yes you are probably right that it remains money if we integrate
>>>>   last year BUT we were willing to spend it.
>>>>
>>>>   Luc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   2014-02-09 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]
>>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>   <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>>>>
>>>>       Dear all,
>>>>
>>>>       First to Luc: from your numbers it is clear that you are not to be
>>>>       blamed on anything, because you were obviously misinformed and
>>>>       misguided.
>>>>
>>>>       Facts namely are:
>>>>
>>>>       1. GSoC mentors decided to pay extra stipendiums 3000 USD [1]
>>>> while
>>>>          ESUG without approval paid 2000 more, 5000 USD, without any
>>>>       report
>>>>          back to GSoC mentors,
>>>>
>>>>       2. GSoC mentors decided to add past GSoC2012 amount to the
>>>> pool for
>>>>          paying extra projects [2][3].
>>>>
>>>>       Calculation (without the Summit expenses) therefore is:
>>>>
>>>>       Income: GSoC 2012  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
>>>>               GSoC 2013  13x 500 =  6.500 USD
>>>>               ------------------------------
>>>>                                    13.000 USD
>>>>
>>>>       Expenses:
>>>>               Extra stipendiums: 3x 3.000 = 9.000 USD
>>>>
>>>>       Difference: + 4.000 USD
>>>>
>>>>       If ESUG would follow the decisions of GSoC mentors it wouldn't
>>>>       loose any
>>>>       money but gain 4.000 USD.
>>>>
>>>>       Those that misinformed and misguided you needs therefore to
>>>>       apologize to
>>>>       you Luc, to the GSoC mentors and to me as admin!
>>>>
>>>>       Janko
>>>>
>>>>       [1]
>>>>       https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/Yrlj8dIgGPg
>>>>       [2]
>>>>       https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/WwnxpkXzAB8
>>>>       [3]
>>>>       https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/smalltalk-gsoc-mentors/tR44jdPT5Hw
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       Dne 09. 02. 2014 17:26, piše Luc Fabresse:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------
>>>>> FACTS
>>>>>
>>>>> As you all know, I am the ESUG treasurer.
>>>>> So please find the numbers attached for the ESUG support of GSOC
>>>>> projects in 2013.
>>>>>
>>>>> ESUG sponsored 3 "extra-GSOC" meaning extra slots not accepted
>>>>       by Google.
>>>>> In the file it is: Alejandro Infante, Pablo Estefo and
>>>>       Benjamin Arezki.
>>>>>
>>>>> All in all we paid:
>>>>> - 3695EUR (~5000USD at that time i.e. same cost as a regular
>>>>       GSOC) each
>>>>> projects
>>>>> - Serge trip to Mentor summit
>>>>>
>>>>> And we received 5552EUR from Google
>>>>>
>>>>> so yes we lost ~6582EUR
>>>>> That is easy 13*500 USD would only cover 1 plain extra-Gsoc and we
>>>>> sponsorized 3.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also think that it is important to send someone to the GSoc
>>>>       mentor
>>>>> summit because it participates to the fact that Google
>>>>       recognizes ESUG
>>>>> ang gives slots the next year.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is alos important to note dates.
>>>>> ESUG paid first and then has been refund by Google.
>>>>> It would not be possible to do it without ESUG.
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------
>>>>> FROM HERE, MY POINT OF VIEW ON THIS STORY:
>>>>>
>>>>> As some of you know, I doing the ESUG treasury stuff on my
>>>>       *own* time
>>>>> and it takes a lot!
>>>>> I am doing it because I strongly believe that Smalltalk (all
>>>>       falvors!)
>>>>> is a really great language that should be more widespread.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also completely open to discussions.
>>>>> The ESUG board can also explain its actions and even money status.
>>>>> I can do errors too.
>>>>> So if Janko wants some details on GSOC related money, JUST ASK!
>>>>>
>>>>> I cannot admit that:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Janko wrote about some money accusation. This is directly
>>>>       directed
>>>>> against the treasurer so me.
>>>>> And honestly, just reading again that I am biased and that I
>>>>       hide or
>>>>> steal money make me think that I should better quit.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Janko asked for apologies! what is that? even if I would
>>>>       have done a
>>>>> mistake (and ESUG did not loose money), YOU STILL MUST THANK
>>>>       ME for
>>>>> DOING THIS BORING TASK!  and then I can correct mistakes if any
>>>>>
>>>>> - People wants an answer fast, this conversation started
>>>>       yesterday and I
>>>>> am spending my week-end with my kids
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am really fed up with this kind of attitude.
>>>>> Stop accuse, better ask, discuss and we will solve the
>>>>       problems together
>>>>> if any.
>>>>> But I think it will never happen...
>>>>>
>>>>> #Luc
>>>>> The disgusted Treasurer of ESUG who will finish his week-end
>>>>       in bad mood
>
>
> --
> Janko Mivšek
> Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team


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Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

Janko Mivšek
In reply to this post by EstebanLM
Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the
community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.

For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project
selection process.

Here is the story:

On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export
Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2],
Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the
list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to
such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC.
Of course I rejected such an order immediately.

Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade
study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like
between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase
uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve
his goal.

What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not
quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such
removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that
right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for
stipendiums.

In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on
GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.

Best regards
Janko

[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool
[2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas




Dne 10. 02. 2014 15:30, piše Stéphane Ducasse:

> I can tell you that until now I took that as a little crisis of Janko but now this makes me sick.
> I do not think that I will stand in the same room than him in the future.
>
> Sorry Janko you are insulting people publicly but you mention that you don't.
> I will check if I have a lawyer to handle this situation because you cannot have just words against me.
> I will check with the inria lawyer first.
>
> Stef
>
>
>
>> I do not understand the motivation of Janko, especially since he is apparently alone to think that way.
>> It is impressive to see how fragile the community is.
>> Thanks Paolo and thanks the ESUG board for handling this difficult situation!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Alexandre
>>
>>
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 7:14 AM, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I support it, too.
>>>
>>> The only path to action I see is to act. And in this situation, Paolo was the only one that offered a pragmatic way out. Thank you, Paolo! :)
>>>
>>> So, I suggest this:
>>> - we take Marcus' suggestion and have the present issue be handled at the next ESUG general assembly. Like this we ensure that the problem is going to be addressed in a more effective environment (namely, more structured, and not via mail).
>>> - we go forward with Paolo as an admin. Like this we ensure that action happens now.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Doru
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I support this, along with a general require that you keep this discussion in private.
>>>
>>> Esteban
>>>
>>> On 10 Feb 2014, at 12:10, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I no longer have confidence in Janko running as GSoC admin
>>>> and want Paolo to take over as admin for Esug as mentoring organisation.
>>>>
>>>> Stephan Eggermont
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Esug-list mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Esug-list mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> www.tudorgirba.com
>>>
>>> "Every thing has its own flow"
>>
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Smalltalk GSoC mentors" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [hidden email].
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>

--
Janko Mivšek
Smalltalk GSoC Admin Team

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Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

Igor Stasenko



On 10 February 2014 17:38, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:
Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the
community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.

For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project
selection process.

Here is the story:

On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export
Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2],
Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the
list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to
such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC.
Of course I rejected such an order immediately.

Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade
study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like
between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase
uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve
his goal.

What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not
quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such
removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that
right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for
stipendiums.

In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on
GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.

Best regards
Janko

[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool
[2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas



Lol.
Now please think how much curses will be there if this would be allowed.

Else why just Newspeak? Why not Ruby, Self, C, C#, Lisp etc.. (i bet there are many mentors/students who would want to paid for doing project in the language of their choice).
Except that it is not smalltalk.. and has nothing to do with ESUG mission. And therefore Stef was absolutely correct.
Case closed.

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.


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Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

Gilad Bracha-2
I should know better than to get involved in this sad affair.

I will note that when the Smalltalk GSoc effort started, I was explicitly asked to participate. I myself noted that Newspeak is sufficiently different from Smalltalk that it should be regarded as a different language, but was assured that this effort was designed to be inclusive of anything in the Smalltalk family. 

So I proposed a few projects none of which were accepted.  I think that's fine - no one has to agree with me on what is important or interesting. 

I also think that saying that Newspeak is outside the Smalltalk "tent" is a legitimate position, even if I may disagree. I know may others in the Smalltalk community have felt that Newspeak, while different, is part of the family. After all, I and I my colleagues have been invited to speak about Newspeak at Smalltalk conferences several times. 

I have no interest in starting a flame war here - I have watched the recent goings on on this list with a feeling of great sadness. I have done what I can to help Smalltalk, and individuals in that community (you know who you are) and will continue to do so. 

However, after 2010 I did not participate in GSoc, since it was clear that my ideas did not coincide with those of  the wider Smalltalk community.

I won't say any more on the topic. I wish you all the best, and I'm glad the GSoc effort continues.


On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:



On 10 February 2014 17:38, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:
Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the
community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.

For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project
selection process.

Here is the story:

On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export
Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2],
Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the
list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to
such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC.
Of course I rejected such an order immediately.

Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade
study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like
between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase
uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve
his goal.

What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not
quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such
removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that
right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for
stipendiums.

In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on
GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.

Best regards
Janko

[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool
[2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas



Lol.
Now please think how much curses will be there if this would be allowed.

Else why just Newspeak? Why not Ruby, Self, C, C#, Lisp etc.. (i bet there are many mentors/students who would want to paid for doing project in the language of their choice).
Except that it is not smalltalk.. and has nothing to do with ESUG mission. And therefore Stef was absolutely correct.
Case closed.

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

_______________________________________________
Esug-list mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org




--
Cheers, Gilad


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Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

Ron Teitelbaum
In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

Hi Janko,

 

So you overrode Stef’s decision, left the project in, and what happened.  Did we get a Newspeak / Smalltalk translator?

 

I’m not sure I agree with Igor here.  If someone wanted to do a translator to some other language, that might be cool.  Having more ways to integrate with other languages may not be a bad idea.  I don’t think it would be a project for a student or something that could be properly accomplished during a summer.  But I guess that doesn’t matter, a summer could get you 80% of the way there.

 

This seems to me to be a difference of opinion and not an ethical lapse or an abuse of power.  Stef was right in asking for the suggestion to be removed.  You were right to disagree.  In both cases it was a judgment call.  It seems to me that since the project stayed on the site, that Stef was also quite reasonable.  He listened to your objection, he heard your opinion, (he probably disagreed with you), and he let the idea stay on the site.  The only thing that may have made this better would have been Stef requesting the removal publically.  This transparency would have come at the risk of alienating the Newspeak community which in my mind is still part of the Smalltalk community, and one of the better contributors of code for all of us (considering their current work on Cog and Spur).  In that light, I understand the desire to do it privately.

 

In this case, in my opinion, everyone acted ethically.  There is no blame to be found.

 

All the best,

 

Ron Teitelbaum

Head Of Engineering

3d Immersive Collaboration Consulting

[hidden email]

Follow Me On Twitter: @RonTeitelbaum

www.3dicc.com

https://www.google.com/+3dicc

 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Igor Stasenko
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 12:15 PM
To: Janko Mivšek
Cc: ESUG Mailing list; Pharo Development List; Squeak
Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: [Esug-list] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

 

 

 

On 10 February 2014 17:38, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:

Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the
community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real.

For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project
selection process.

Here is the story:

On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export
Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2],
Stéphane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the
list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to
such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC.
Of course I rejected such an order immediately.

Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade
study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like
between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase
uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve
his goal.

What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not
quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such
removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that
right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for
stipendiums.

In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on
GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible.

Best regards
Janko

[1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool
[2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas


Lol.
Now please think how much curses will be there if this would be allowed.

Else why just Newspeak? Why not Ruby, Self, C, C#, Lisp etc.. (i bet there are many mentors/students who would want to paid for doing project in the language of their choice).

Except that it is not smalltalk.. and has nothing to do with ESUG mission. And therefore Stef was absolutely correct.

Case closed.


--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.



1234