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Re: [vwnc] [Fwd: Newbie woes / VW 7.6]

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jarober

Re: [vwnc] [Fwd: Newbie woes / VW 7.6]

There's a constant tension between "what makes the base easier to use" versus "what belongs in loadable components". I don't know what the overall "right" answer is, but this kind of message helps us understand how new users view the system - so we appreciate the feedback.

Thanks for the kind words on the Screencasts - I started doing those specifically to help fill in the "how to" gap in Cincom Smalltalk

On Aug 12, 2008, at 2:40 PM, Michael Lucas-Smith wrote:

From: Claus Kick <[hidden email]>
Date: August 12, 2008 1:22:54 PM EDT
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [vwnc] Newbie woes / VW 7.6

Hello everyone,

I know it is not really nice to have a first posting which at least
partly resembles a complaint, but this is something I do not really
understand.

As a starting project I wanted to implement some basic CSV support as my
Seaside project is going to store some things in a simple format, and
CSV is really simple.
I figured this would be great as I could learn some more about the
Filename and the Stream hierarchy.
My eyebrows rose first when I did not find a "Stream>>nextLine"
implementation. I figured, I had simply not understood how Streams
worked in VW, so I just implemented my own. After some more pondering, I
asked in the newsgroup (comp.lang.smalltalk) about this and it turns out
that nextLine *is* implemented; however it is implemented in
NetClientBase, about exactly the package I would have expected it to be in.

The second thing was that I needed to watch a Screencast before I found
out that VisualWorks actually comes with some Code Edit Enhancements
(tab-completion, code formatter, syntax highlighting), but you have to
browse through all the packages first to find those things.

The third thing was the package of getting the system time and using
that instead of the internal one. I only learned about that, again via a
Screencast.

(The screencasts make getting to know VisualWorks actually much easier
btw, a big thanks to Mr Robertson for those.)

But still, what I do not really understand is this: Why is stuff like
that not simply included in the base image itself?
It would make starting out in VisualWorks land so much easier...

Regards,

Claus
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Stefan Schmiedl

Re: [vwnc] [Fwd: Newbie woes / VW 7.6]

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:52:30 -0400
James Robertson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There's a constant tension between "what makes the base easier to use"
> versus "what belongs in loadable components". I don't know what the
> overall "right" answer is,

Well ... Squeak has distributions containing vm, image and
sources, there are archives for each single component, and there
are two different *one-click* images pre-loaded with all kinds of good
stuff geared towards developers.

So the "right" answer seems to be: Provide the "basic" visual.im and
a preloaded bellsAndWhistles.im right besides it.

s.
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jtuchel

Re: [vwnc] [Fwd: Newbie woes / VW 7.6]

In reply to this post by jarober

Stefan,

I am not sure Squeak is a good example here...
It is hard to find out which image to use, and as a newbie you never know if you need bells or whistles, especially if your background is a bells and whistles paradise like Eclipse ;-)
In this context I'd go as far as to say that a bells and whistles image is much better for a newbie than a simple image, because people have high expectations towards an IDE when they come from there. A lean image is probably a better choice for people who know exactly what they do.

But the basic question james brought up remains: what would we want in a full image and what should be unloaded in such an image.

The more I think about it, I come to the conclusion that some kind of "new project wizard" which presents you with choices like "Seaside Application" or "Headless HTTP Server APplication" or "Rich Client Application" and then produces an image with the right components loaded into it, would be the best approach to this.

cu

Joachim

>On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:52:30 -0400
>James Robertson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> There's a constant tension between "what makes the base easier to use"
>> versus "what belongs in loadable components". I don't know what the
>> overall "right" answer is,
>
>Well ... Squeak has distributions containing vm, image and
>sources, there are archives for each single component, and there
>are two different *one-click* images pre-loaded with all kinds of good
>stuff geared towards developers.
>
>So the "right" answer seems to be: Provide the "basic" visual.im and
>a preloaded bellsAndWhistles.im right besides it.
>
>s.
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>vwnc mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

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Karsten Kusche

Re: [vwnc] [Fwd: Newbie woes / VW 7.6]

Joachim Tuchel wrote:
> The more I think about it, I come to the conclusion that some kind of "new project wizard" which presents you with choices like "Seaside Application" or "Headless HTTP Server APplication" or "Rich Client Application" and then produces an image with the right components loaded into it, would be the best approach to this.
>

oh how i would love to see that :-D
some nice image builder that might even have a config file, so that it
loads parcels from certain store repositories and then saves and
launches this image.

Karsten

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Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812

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Stefan Schmiedl

Re: [vwnc] [Fwd: Newbie woes / VW 7.6]

In reply to this post by jtuchel

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:46:28 +0200
Joachim Tuchel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It is hard to find out which image to use, and as a newbie you never know if you need bells or whistles, especially if your background is a bells and whistles paradise like Eclipse ;-)

The "which image to use" is solved nicely by advertising the
"one-click" images to newcomers. "Bells and Whistles" is probably the
wrong expression for the impression this image should try to make.
Compared to Java-oriented IDEs much of Smalltalks B&W are the
very basic stuff like inspectors and debugging, not some glitzy GUI
adornments.

> In this context I'd go as far as to say that a bells and whistles image is much better for a newbie than a simple image, because people have high expectations towards an IDE when they come from there. A lean image is probably a better choice for people who know exactly what they do.

Definitely. Give me a fully loaded image for messing around until I
know what I'm doing, then a minimal image for building up the
application.

> But the basic question james brought up remains: what would we want in a full image and what should be unloaded in such an image.

Let's go for the test-driven route here: Offer *something*, then listen
to the user feedback.

>
> The more I think about it, I come to the conclusion that some kind of "new project wizard" which presents you with choices like "Seaside Application" or "Headless HTTP Server APplication" or "Rich Client Application" and then produces an image with the right components loaded into it, would be the best approach to this.

That's a good idea. But it's orthogonal to the IDE improvements, which
are mostly RB enhancements: syntax coloring, tabbed views,
Three-Panel-thingies, browser history, stuff like that.

s.
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skrish

Re: [vwnc] [Fwd: Newbie woes / VW 7.6]

Its probably more than 4 yrs back starting up on VW, I struggled a wee bit, not that I now would say VW IDE is a constraint, having come a long way working on Smalltalk.. Back then I tried creating a proposal/prototype for the IDE, very amateurish in hindsight now.. but I still there is some parts that can fit into how others are looking for changes in the IDE to enable newbies an even more quicker Smalltalking experience. A pluggable architecture that allows view composition/ perspective composition by developers in the community and share.. too.

Ref: http://www.geocities.com/skrishnamachari/UnifiedIDE.pdf

I think I might try and go back to this and redo the doc/ prototype to resemble a proper MDI type interface, a more aesthetic presentation.. rather than spewing the 30's something windows I normally end up having once I get going with a work in hand..

Influence of eclipse and VisualStudio cannot be ignored, but there are issues in that too of deeply embedded configurations and black box functionality etc..wizards that do not let the newbie developer know the nuances of code development at the bare metal level and covers it in layers of auto generated code etc..

skrish

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Stefan Schmiedl <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:46:28 +0200
Joachim Tuchel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It is hard to find out which image to use, and as a newbie you never know if you need bells or whistles, especially if your background is a bells and whistles paradise like Eclipse ;-)

The "which image to use" is solved nicely by advertising the
"one-click" images to newcomers. "Bells and Whistles" is probably the
wrong expression for the impression this image should try to make.
Compared to Java-oriented IDEs much of Smalltalks B&W are the
very basic stuff like inspectors and debugging, not some glitzy GUI
adornments.

> In this context I'd go as far as to say that a bells and whistles image is much better for a newbie than a simple image, because people have high expectations towards an IDE when they come from there. A lean image is probably a better choice for people who know exactly what they do.

Definitely. Give me a fully loaded image for messing around until I
know what I'm doing, then a minimal image for building up the
application.

> But the basic question james brought up remains: what would we want in a full image and what should be unloaded in such an image.

Let's go for the test-driven route here: Offer *something*, then listen
to the user feedback.

>
> The more I think about it, I come to the conclusion that some kind of "new project wizard" which presents you with choices like "Seaside Application" or "Headless HTTP Server APplication" or "Rich Client Application" and then produces an image with the right components loaded into it, would be the best approach to this.

That's a good idea. But it's orthogonal to the IDE improvements, which
are mostly RB enhancements: syntax coloring, tabbed views,
Three-Panel-thingies, browser history, stuff like that.

s.
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Claus Kick

Re: [vwnc] [Fwd: Newbie woes / VW 7.6]

In reply to this post by jtuchel

Joachim Tuchel wrote:

*snip*

> But the basic question james brought up remains: what would we want in a full image and what should be unloaded in such an image.
>
> The more I think about it, I come to the conclusion that some kind of "new project wizard"
>which presents you with choices like "Seaside Application" or
"Headless HTTP Server APplication" or
>"Rich Client Application" and then produces an image with the right
components loaded into it, would be the best approach to this.

I think Stefan sums this up pretty nicely.
My own stance is pretty similar: this is generally a good idea, but as
far as IDE improvements of any kind are concerned, they need to be in
the base image.

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Reinout Heeck-2

Re: [vwnc] [Fwd: Newbie woes / VW 7.6]

In reply to this post by jarober

James Robertson wrote:
> There's a constant tension between "what makes the base easier to use"
> versus "what belongs in loadable components". I don't know what the
> overall "right" answer is, but this kind of message helps us
> understand how new users view the system - so we appreciate the
> feedback.

To me it seems *two* issues are mentioned here.

1) Availability of a fully prepared bells-n-whistles IDE image.

2) Location of methods that newbies would consider 'base' but have to be
searched for in unrelated packages that just happen to extend the base
for their convenience. (#nextLine is a very strong example in this
regard, since most other languages have that in their base).

I guess these need to be tackled separately.

R
-

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