Refactoring Browser - Dolphin Smalltalk XP 5.0 Standard Edition (DSE)

I just bought DSE. Where is the refactoring browser that is advertised? I
cannot find refactorings.

Umur,

> I just bought DSE. Where is the refactoring browser that is advertised? I
> cannot find refactorings.

Hmm... Dolphin Standard Edition doesn't come with the Refactoring Browser
built-in. The RB is only available in the Professional version. As far as I
can see the website is pretty clear on this.

For example:

On the What's New page it says: "Refactoring Browser available in Dolphin
Professional only."

On the "Products" page it says: "DPRO adds these packages to those otherwise
available in DSE: Built-in Refactoring in all browsers. Dolphin is the first
Smalltalk IDE to offer these advanced tools integrated right into the base
product. Scoped refactorings directly from the UI are also available and
unique to Dolphin Smalltalk."

If you can point out the area of the website where the advertised details
are misleading then we'll rectify the problem ASAP.

As for your purchase, if you are not happy with it, then let us know via
e-mail and we will refund the full purchase amount to your credit card.
Hopefully you will then wish to purchase Dolphin Professional instead :-)

BTW: I don't see your name on any of the recent DSE purchases. Did you
purchase the product under a different name?

Best regards

Andy Bower
Dolphin Support

"Andy Bower" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:3f8d7261$[hidden email]...
> On the "Products" page it says: "DPRO adds these packages to those
otherwise
> available in DSE: Built-in Refactoring in all browsers. Dolphin is the
first
> Smalltalk IDE to offer these advanced tools integrated right into the base
> product. Scoped refactorings directly from the UI are also available and
> unique to Dolphin Smalltalk."
>
> If you can point out the area of the website where the advertised details
> are misleading then we'll rectify the problem ASAP.

You didn't ask me, but I'll tell you anyway:

> Dolphin is the first Smalltalk IDE to offer these advanced tools
> integrated right into the base product.

Not only misleading, but simply untrue. Al least VisualWorks and IBM
Smalltalk had these advanced tools integrated 'right into the base product'
probably before there even existed an RB for Dolphin.

> Scoped refactorings directly from the UI are also available and
> unique to Dolphin Smalltalk.

These have been available for quite a while both in VW and IBM as well.

IMHO, Dolphin doesn't need these overstatements to demonstrate value.

Also, I wonder how come you are releasing a tool (RB) you got for free as a
paid-for extra. What license did you acquire it under that allows you to do
that? Or am I wrong to assume that you acquired it under a license? Perhaps
you developed it yourself independently, or you actually have proof it is in
the public domain?

Cheers,

Peter van Rooijen
Amsterdam

Peter,

> You didn't ask me, but I'll tell you anyway:
>
> > Dolphin is the first Smalltalk IDE to offer these advanced tools
> > integrated right into the base product.
>
> Not only misleading, but simply untrue. Al least VisualWorks and IBM
> Smalltalk had these advanced tools integrated 'right into the base
product'
> probably before there even existed an RB for Dolphin.

Actually, I asked Umur where it was suggested on the website that Dolphin
Standard Edition came preloaded with the Refactoring Browser. However, since
you inquire, the above statement is not "simply untrue". As far as I'm aware
both VW and IBM VAST had the RB available as add-on packages that were not
installed out-of the box and did not use the native browsers. In recent
releases the RB is present, preinstalled, in the native browsers but (I
believe) Dolphin was the *first* to have this with our 5.0 release.
>
> > Scoped refactorings directly from the UI are also available and
> > unique to Dolphin Smalltalk.
>
> These have been available for quite a while both in VW and IBM as well.

At the time of writing only Dolphin offered these scoped refactorings. If
what you say is true then maybe it is time to update that sentence.

> IMHO, Dolphin doesn't need these overstatements to demonstrate value.

Very kind, I'm sure.

> Also, I wonder how come you are releasing a tool (RB) you got for free as
a
> paid-for extra. What license did you acquire it under that allows you to
do
> that? Or am I wrong to assume that you acquired it under a license?
Perhaps
> you developed it yourself independently, or you actually have proof it is
in
> the public domain?

You are paying for the substantial work that we, Object Arts, put in to
develop the integration between the RB and the native Dolphin browsers. If
you are unwilling to pay for this then, as you well know (since you have
brought this up in this forum before and received the same reply) the
Dolphin port of the RB engine is available for free:

http://www.object-arts.co.uk/wiki/html/Dolphin/RefactoringBrowser.htm

With regards to license, shortly before the release of Dolphin 5,we asked
direct permission from John Brant and Don Roberts of Refactory Inc.  to be
able to include the RB engine pre-loaded into the Dolphin image. Indeed, I
have the e-mail reply right here:

>> From: Andy Bower [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>
>> Now, we'd obviously like to ship the new version with the RB
>> preinstalled because it does look rather groovy but we'll
>> understand if you'd rather we didn't do this. So, what do you
>> think? Would it be okay if the RB came preloaded in the 5.0
>> image and, if so, what copyright notices would you
>> like to be displayed and where?

>Sure, that would be alright with us. As far as copyright notices, I
>don't really have any preferences. I don't know if Don has anything to
>say about this.

Perhaps that is sufficient to dampen your apparent discomfort with the
situation.

Regards,

Andy Bower
Dolphin Support

I must agree with Andy. I believe he is correct about Dolphin being the
first Smalltalk development tools with "Scoped refactorings directly from
the UI". However, this is no longer "unique to Dolphin Smalltalk", as
VisualWorks has this in version 7. Note that IBM VisualAge still does not
have this.

It should be OK to pay some extra to have the Refactoring Browser integrated
with the normal tools. I heard nobody complain to Cincom about this. Cincom
includes this feature whether you want or not, and I guess part of the bucks
paid for VisualWork covers their effort on this. At least with Dolphin, you
are free to buy the tool without this feature.

Runar Jordahl

Runar

You wrote in message news:[hidden email]...
> I must agree with Andy. I believe he is correct about Dolphin being the
> first Smalltalk development tools with "Scoped refactorings directly from
> the UI". However, this is no longer "unique to Dolphin Smalltalk", as
> VisualWorks has this in version 7. Note that IBM VisualAge still does not
> have this.
>...

Just as a matter of interest, how do you actually perform scoped
refactorings in VW from the UI? I haven't been able to find how to, for
example, rename definitions of and references to a method within the scope
of a class hierarchy.

Regards

Blair

Runar Jordahl wrote:

>I must agree with Andy. I believe he is correct about Dolphin being the
>first Smalltalk development tools with "Scoped refactorings directly from
>the UI". However, this is no longer "unique to Dolphin Smalltalk", as
>VisualWorks has this in version 7. Note that IBM VisualAge still does not
>have this.
>
BTW - VA would never have had the RB integrated into the native browsers
if I didn't write that code for Mastering ENVY. If newer functionality
(such as scoped refactorings) is not supported there, it's because I
rarely use VA nowadays (why do you think I'm posting here), and I
haven't kept the tools updated. Actually, Niall Ross has taken over all
these extensions.

>
>
>It should be OK to pay some extra to have the Refactoring Browser integrated
>with the normal tools. I heard nobody complain to Cincom about this. Cincom
>includes this feature whether you want or not, and I guess part of the bucks
>paid for VisualWork covers their effort on this. At least with Dolphin, you
>are free to buy the tool without this feature.
>
Considering the pain I remember having doing RB browser integration,
both in VSE and VA, I think Andy and Blair should charge a *lot* more.
Dolphin offers fantastic value for your money.

Cheers

--
--
Joseph Pelrine [ | ]
MetaProg GmbH
Email: [hidden email]
Web:   http://www.metaprog.com

"If you don't live on the edge, you're taking up too much space" -
Doug Robinson


--
--
Joseph Pelrine [ | ]
MetaProg GmbH
Email: [hidden email]
Web:   http://www.metaprog.com

"If you don't live on the edge, you're taking up too much space" -
Doug Robinson

"Andy Bower" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:3f8dc6b5$[hidden email]... since
> you inquire, the above statement is not "simply untrue". As far as I'm
aware as
> a
> > paid-for extra. What license did you acquire it under that allows you to
> do
> > that? Or am I wrong to assume that you acquired it under a license?
> Perhaps
> > you developed it yourself independently, or you actually have proof it
is
> in
> > the public domain?
>
> You are paying for the substantial work that we, Object Arts, put in to
> develop the integration between the RB and the native Dolphin browsers. If
> you are unwilling to pay for this then, as you well know (since you have
> brought this up in this forum before and received the same reply) the
> Dolphin port of the RB engine is available for free:

i integrated the refactoring browser code into dolphin 4 and i can tell you
that it was a pantload of work.  this complaint is kind of like saying that
since
gps signals are free, how come my (insert cheap car here) doesn't have an
onboard navigation system.

besides dolphin pro is less than 5% of the $6k that vast costs. get a grip.

Whoops. I meant that VisualWorks has "refactorings", not scoped ones. Sorry!
No, I do not know how to do this VisualWorks.

"Runar Jordahl" <ssa2ds> wrote in message
news:3f8fafdd$[hidden email]...
> Whoops. I meant that VisualWorks has "refactorings", not scoped ones.
Sorry!
> No, I do not know how to do this VisualWorks.
>

Well it is possible to do it in code in any Smalltalk with a port of the
Refactory refactoring engine, since the capability is fundamentally
supported by the RBEnvironment classes (with a few tweaks). I was just
wondering if VW exposed it in the UI, and it seems not. If the same is also
true of VA then it seems that Peter is wrong on all counts, and it remains
the case that "Scoped refactorings directly from the UI are ... unique to
Dolphin Smalltalk".

Regards

Blair

"Donald MacQueen" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:bmnc69$l8d$[hidden email]...

Peter:
> > > Also, I wonder how come you are releasing a tool (RB) you got for free
> as
> > a
> > > paid-for extra. What license did you acquire it under that allows you
to
> > do
> > > that? Or am I wrong to assume that you acquired it under a license?
> > Perhaps
> > > you developed it yourself independently, or you actually have proof it
> is
> > in
> > > the public domain?
> >

Andy:
> > You are paying for the substantial work that we, Object Arts, put in to
> > develop the integration between the RB and the native Dolphin browsers.
If
> > you are unwilling to pay for this then, as you well know (since you have
> > brought this up in this forum before and received the same reply) the
> > Dolphin port of the RB engine is available for free:

Donald:
> i integrated the refactoring browser code into dolphin 4 and i can tell
you
> that it was a pantload of work.

Donald,

I don't doubt it and I am sure it is widely appreciated. Dolphin with
refactorings is a many times more useful product than Dolphin without
refactorings. I had no idea that Object Arts paid you to do that
integration. I thought you had done it for free.

> this complaint

There is no complaint. Not from me in any case.

I was inquiring what license Object Arts has to this code. I understand (I
hope correctly) from Andy's answer that the refactorings themselves
(including the Dolphin version of them) are assumed to be freely available
(i.e., in the public domain), and that Object Arts developed the integration
of the refactoring menu options into the standard Dolphin browsers
themselves. So, what you get extra in Dolphin Pro is not the refactorings
themselves, you can simply load these into standard edition if you want, but
the integration in the browsers.

> is kind of like saying that
> since
> gps signals are free, how come my (insert cheap car here) doesn't have an
> onboard navigation system.

That has absolutely nothing to do with my remarks.

> besides dolphin pro is less than 5% of the $6k that vast costs.

The cost of the products is also beside the point. But since you mentioned
it, VisualAge Smalltalk has a free, time unlimited trial version of the full
product, and the refactoring browser as well as integration of the
refactoring options into the browsers, is and has always been available for
free.

> get a grip.

Regards,

Peter van Rooijen
Amsterdam

"Blair McGlashan" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:bmobrt$nnob6$[hidden email]... also
> true of VA then it seems that Peter is wrong on all counts, and it remains
> the case that "Scoped refactorings directly from the UI are ... unique to
> Dolphin Smalltalk".

Hi Blair,

Just because Runar doesn't know how to do it does not mean it can't be done.
In VA there are in fact two different mechanisms to do scoped refactorings
'directly from the UI'.

In any case, you make an assertion about your product, someone suggests it
is misleading (Umur says DSE was advertized with Refactoring Browser - I
personally wouldn't know), you demonstrate that it is not misleading. If you
can't or won't do that, simply giving the person a refund is not enough. You
have to give what the buyer reasonably believed you were offering.

If you choose to promote your product by claiming certain properties
("unique to Dolphin Smalltalk"), the burden is on you to show that these
claims are defensible. Saying that it seems to be the case is not
sufficient.

In any case, I don't intend to fight with you and I also don't want to spell
out for you what exactly the capabilities of the products competing with
yours are. You can do your own marketing research.

Cheers,

Peter van Rooijen
Amsterdam

> Regards
>
> Blair

Peter van Rooijen wrote:

> Just because Runar doesn't know how to do it does not mean it can't be
> done. In VA there are in fact two different mechanisms to do scoped
> refactorings 'directly from the UI'.
>
> [...]
>
> In any case, I don't intend to fight with you and I also don't want to
> spell out for you what exactly the capabilities of the products competing

Why this extraordinary -- and, as far as I cas see, unfounded -- degree of
hostility ?

And, too, why do you think it's OK for you to ride your hobby-horse on other
peoples' lawns ?  This has always been a pleasant and mutally supportive place;
if you don't want to play by the local rules then please go elsewhere.

(Not to say that you should shut up, but *this* place is the wrong forum for
non-constructive criticism -- try c.l.s.a)

    -- chris

Peter,

> Just because Runar doesn't know how to do it does not mean it can't be
done.
> In VA there are in fact two different mechanisms to do scoped refactorings
> 'directly from the UI'.

<snip & rearrange>

> In any case, I don't intend to fight with you and I also don't want to
spell
> out for you what exactly the capabilities of the products competing with
> yours are.

Why not? You seem to be being petulantly unhelpful.

>You can do your own marketing research.

Well, we've (today) done our own research with VW and can't find a way to do
it (and neither, it seems can Runar). I seem to remember saying that that if
these were no longer unique to Dolphin then it might be time to update the
website. We will take a look at VAST and if we find that  it can in fact do
these in
the native browsers then we will obviously update the site to reflect this.
The fact that you won't help demonstrate this seems rather childish to me.

> In any case, you make an assertion about your product, someone suggests it
> is misleading (Umur says DSE was advertized with Refactoring Browser - I
> personally wouldn't know),

Strange that you now admit to not knowing anything about the subject that
started this thread. Why then, did you reply in the first place? Ah, perhaps
it is because you have a "bee in your bonnet" about Dolphin including the
free RB engine in a commercial product. IMO, your initial post was
tantamount to
an accusation of license fraud (which is theft, of course, and we know
how damaging such a claim can be). However, since I then demonstrated that
we had the authors' permission to include the RB with our product so I
thought
we might have expected a small apology but, no, it seems you have
"forgotten"
about that rudeness on your part.

> you demonstrate that it is not misleading. If you
> can't or won't do that, simply giving the person a refund is not enough.
You
> have to give what the buyer reasonably believed you were offering.

This is nonsense. How would you suggest that I "demonstrate" that the
website is not misleading, short of posting every page to this newsgroup.
Surely, even you would accept that the best way of determining this fact is
to ask the person who claims to have been misled to ellucidate as to why?

Regards,

Andy Bower
Dolphin Support


.

Peter,

> > i integrated the refactoring browser code into dolphin 4 and i can tell
> > you that it was a pantload of work.
>
> Donald,
>
> I don't doubt it and I am sure it is widely appreciated. Dolphin with
> refactorings is a many times more useful product than Dolphin without
> refactorings. I had no idea that Object Arts paid you to do that
> integration. I thought you had done it for free.

Donald did do the work for free for Dolphin 4. He was just expressing how
much work it was to do it. The Dolphin 5 integration was a separate piece of
work performed by us at OA. And before you ask, no, it is not plagiarized
from Donald's work.

> > this complaint
>
> There is no complaint. Not from me in any case.
>
> I was inquiring what license Object Arts has to this code. I understand (I
> hope correctly) from Andy's answer that the refactorings themselves
> (including the Dolphin version of them) are assumed to be freely available
> (i.e., in the public domain), and that Object Arts developed the
integration
> of the refactoring menu options into the standard Dolphin browsers
> themselves. So, what you get extra in Dolphin Pro is not the refactorings
> themselves, you can simply load these into standard edition if you want,
but
> the integration in the browsers.

That is correct, although I doubt you should have needed to ask again since
this was pointed out when you last brought up the subject:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3ed728e3%240%2449113%24e4fe514c%40news.xs4all.nl&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D3ed728e3%25240%252449113%2524e4fe514c%2540news.xs4all.nl

> > is kind of like saying that
> > since gps signals are free, how come my (insert cheap car here) doesn't
have an
> > onboard navigation system.
>
> That has absolutely nothing to do with my remarks.

Actually, I think it is very aposite. If you can't see it then you are being
deliberately obtuse.

Regards,

Andy Bower
Dolphin Support

"Andy Bower" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:[hidden email]...
> Peter,
>
> > > i integrated the refactoring browser code into dolphin 4 and i can
tell of
> work performed by us at OA. And before you ask, no, it is not plagiarized
> from Donald's work.

quite correct.

>
> > > this complaint
> >
> > There is no complaint. Not from me in any case.
> >
> > I was inquiring what license Object Arts has to this code. I understand
(I
> > hope correctly) from Andy's answer that the refactorings themselves
> > (including the Dolphin version of them) are assumed to be freely
available
> > (i.e., in the public domain), and that Object Arts developed the
> integration
> > of the refactoring menu options into the standard Dolphin browsers
> > themselves. So, what you get extra in Dolphin Pro is not the
refactorings
> > themselves, you can simply load these into standard edition if you want,
> but  the integration in the browsers.

right. don and john have always said that the refactoring browser code is in
the public domain. just like gps signals! ;-) but that does not mean that
there
is no cost/work in integrating it into <insert smalltalk version here>
browsers.

the rb engine was the easy part. the integration into the d4 browsers was
the
hard part. i would not have attempted it had i known how much work it was
going to be. fortuneately, i am an optimist, which may be why i am still a
programmer. i also learned a great deal. the refactoring browser is a
brilliant piece of work.

>
> That is correct, although I doubt you should have needed to ask again
since
> this was pointed out when you last brought up the subject:
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3ed728e3%240%2449
113%24e4fe514c%40news.xs4all.nl&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3
DUTF-8%26selm%3D3ed728e3%25240%252449113%2524e4fe514c%2540news.xs4all.nl
>
> > > is kind of like saying that since gps signals are free, how come my
(insert cheap car here) doesn't
> have an onboard navigation system.

> > That has absolutely nothing to do with my remarks.
>
> Actually, I think it is very aposite. If you can't see it then you are
being
> deliberately obtuse.

excellent! is apposite (sp?) the opposite of opposite?

--
Best regards,
 Donald                          mailto:[hidden email]

Donald M. MacQueen [|]
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
- Edmund Burke

cstb wrote:

    Re: Refactoring Browser - Dolphin Smalltalk XP 5.0 Standard Edition
        (DSE)
    Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:16:07 -0700
    From: cstb <[hidden email]>
    To: Peter van Rooijen <[hidden email]>

It seems the message wasn't heard, hence per Mr. Burke's suggestion,
it is repeated here.

 
 Hi Peter,
 
 This may seem misleading, but only because it is true.
 Nobody had the RB integrated 'right into the base'
 before Dolphin 5.0, VW 7.0, and I'm not sure of the
 version for VAST.

 It was 'available' (except for VW 5i), but never integrated.
 VW 7.0 *would* have been first, but I slipped that delivery
 (for reasons unrelated) and therefore, Dolphin (@SS) was first,
 by several weeks.
 
 
> > > Scoped refactorings directly from the UI are also available and
> > > unique to Dolphin Smalltalk.
> >
> > These have been available for quite a while both in VW and IBM as
> > well.
 

 I believe these features were unique on the day that copy was written.


> > IMHO, Dolphin doesn't need these overstatements to demonstrate
> > value.
> >
> > Also, I wonder how come you are releasing a tool (RB) you got for
> > free as a paid-for extra. What license did you acquire it under
> > that allows you to do that? Or am I wrong to assume that you
> > acquired it under a license? Perhaps you developed it yourself
> > independently, or you actually have proof it is in the public
> > domain?


 What Dolphin did or didn't pay is not really your business
 (nor mine ;-).

 As for licencing, I guess I can understand the theoretical concerns
 here, and attribute them to a good community heart.  But before
 blasting away at good guys in a public forum, you might do a little
 private research (email, say) or phrase it as an honest question,
 since you clearly don't know.
 
 I also "don't know" (I haven't seen either parties internal documents
 on it) but I do happen to "know" that the Dolphin RB was the result
 of cooperation between ObjectArts and Refactory, Inc.
 
 Cheers,
 
 -cstb

 
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Peter van Rooijen
> > Amsterdam

"Andy Bower" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
> Donald did do the work for free for Dolphin 4. He was just expressing how
> much work it was to do it. The Dolphin 5 integration was a separate piece
of
> work performed by us at OA. And before you ask, no, it is not plagiarized
> from Donald's work.

Andy, why are you so hostile? When did I ever suggest you plagiarized
anything?

I also never suggested you have no right to charge what you are charging for
your products, or include in them what you are including in them.

Instead:

> > I was inquiring what license Object Arts has to this code. I understand
(I
> > hope correctly) from Andy's answer that the refactorings themselves
> > (including the Dolphin version of them) are assumed to be freely
available
> > (i.e., in the public domain), and that Object Arts developed the
> integration
> > of the refactoring menu options into the standard Dolphin browsers
> > themselves. So, what you get extra in Dolphin Pro is not the
refactorings
> > themselves, you can simply load these into standard edition if you want,
> but
> > the integration in the browsers.
>
> That is correct, although I doubt you should have needed to ask again
since
> this was pointed out when you last brought up the subject:
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3ed728e3%240%2449113%24e4fe514c%40news.xs4all.nl&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D3ed728e3%25240%252449113%2524e4fe514c%2540news.xs4all.nl

Well, I just followed that link, and it doesn't show that 'this was pointed
out' at all. You misrepresent what was said there (I'm assuming you actually
read the thread before you posted the link to it).

> > > is kind of like saying that
> > > since gps signals are free, how come my (insert cheap car here)
doesn't
> have an
> > > onboard navigation system.
> >
> > That has absolutely nothing to do with my remarks.
>
> Actually, I think it is very aposite. If you can't see it then you are
being
> deliberately obtuse.

Thank you for pointing that out to me.

Regards,

Peter van Rooijen
Amsterdam

> Regards,
>
> Andy Bower
> Dolphin Support

Donald, Andy,

Let's try and summarize the discussion:


1) There are refactoring engines freely available for Dolphin versions 3, 4
and 5.

2) They can be downloaded from
http://www.object-arts.co.uk/wiki/html/Dolphin/RefactoringBrowser.htm

3) At least the refactoring engine for Dolphin version 4 was ported by
Donald and made available for free.

4) Donald also integrated the refactoring engine he ported with the browsers
in Dolphin version 4.

5) The refactoring browser/engine code itself has been placed in the public
domain by John Brant and Don Roberts, the authors.

6) Objects Arts themselves integrated the refactoring engine with the
browsers in Dolphin version 5.

7) You get this integration code from Object Arts only with the Pro version
of Dolphin 5.

8) If you want refactoring integrated with the browsers without buying
Dolphin 5 Pro, you'll either have to use an older version, or install the
refactoring engine in Dolphin 5 Value edition or Standard Edition, and add
the integration code to that (either self-developed or obtained from someone
else).

9) The original discussion started with a customer who thought he would get
refactoring support in DSE, and did not find it. This apparently concerned
what this phrasing from Object-Arts' website really means, and whether it is
in any way unclear or untrue:

DPRO adds these packages to those otherwise available in DSE:

* Built-in Refactoring in all browsers. Dolphin is the first Smalltalk IDE
to offer these advanced tools integrated right into the base product. Scoped
refactorings directly from the UI are also available and unique to Dolphin
Smalltalk.


I hope I have succeeded in summarizing the discussion accurately and fairly.
Please feel free to correct any inaccuracies or omissions.

Regards,

Peter van Rooijen
Amsterdam

Peter,

>
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3ed728e3%240%2449113%24e4fe514c%40news.xs4all.nl&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D3ed728e3%25240%252449113%2524e4fe514c%2540news.xs4all.nl
>
> Well, I just followed that link, and it doesn't show that 'this was
pointed
> out' at all. You misrepresent what was said there (I'm assuming you
actually
> read the thread before you posted the link to it).

I suppose it depends on what "this" is. You said:

> > > I understand (I hope correctly) from Andy's answer that the
> > > refactorings themselves (including the Dolphin version of them)
> > > are assumed to be freely available (i.e., in the public domain)

I said:

> > That is correct, although I doubt you should have needed to ask again
> > since this was pointed out when you last brought up the subject:

Following the above link I see that Blair said:

> >Refactoring engines for all versions of Dolphin, with the exception of
2.1
> > but including 5.x, are available for download from:
> >
> >http://www.object-arts.co.uk/wiki/html/Dolphin/RefactoringBrowser.htm

So I'm not entirely sure how I am misrepresenting anything?

> > Andy, why are you so hostile? When did I ever suggest you plagiarized
> > anything?

There appears to be something in the manner with which you post that makes
it appear (to me at least) that you are trying to score points and are just
passing less than constructive criticism. If I am mistaken about this,
perhaps because it is accidental, then I apologize, but you must consider
that several other people who have replied to this thread also seem take
issue with your manner of posting.

Andy Bower