Retina screens
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Within a year all macs will have Retina displays and Windows machines will be close to follow. How does Cincom reply to this... a Dpi setting ?.. scalable graphics ?.. text did you find a viable alternative to Cairo / Pango ?.. many years to go ?.. stille evaluating alternatifs .. they made a decision ? .. Abandoning ?.. doityourself ?...
@+Maarten,
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Maarten, I am just wondering what is the difference between retina displays and an increase of the resolution. Said in other words, why coping with Retina display is this different than a simple increase of the screen resolution
Alexandre On Sep 30, 2012, at 6:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Within a year all macs will have Retina displays and Windows machines will be close to follow. > How does Cincom reply to this... a Dpi setting ?.. scalable graphics ?.. text did you find a viable alternative to Cairo / Pango ?.. many years to go ?.. stille evaluating alternatifs .. they made a decision ? .. Abandoning ?.. doityourself ?... > > @+Maarten, > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Resolution is the number of pixels, and doesn't really matter much. If resolution increases, great, we've got bigger monitors, and monitors can never be too big unless you want to put them in your pocket. Of course, the solution there is to sew on bigger pockets. :)
But DPI (dots per inch) matters. Retina displays have increased DPI, so more pixels are packed into the same screen area. If we merely cram the same number of pixes into less area without any other adjustments, now the font size that looked good on the old monitor may be too small to read easily on the new. Pixel-based graphics (icons, buttons, scrollbars, etc) look smaller. If the mouse sensitivity is adjusted for the higher DPI, it may take more time/effort to center the mouse over the smaller objects.
Also at issue is how to ensure the same content that is 2 inches wide when viewed on the screen is also 2 inches wide when printed on paper if the monitor and printer are using different DPI values. [hidden email] From: Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> To: [hidden email] Cc: VWNC <[hidden email]> Sent: Mon, October 1, 2012 3:26:56 PM Subject: Re: [vwnc] Retina screens Maarten, I am just wondering what is the difference between retina displays and an increase of the resolution. Said in other words, why coping with Retina display is this different than a simple increase of the screen resolution Alexandre On Sep 30, 2012, at 6:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Within a year all macs will have Retina displays and Windows machines will be close to follow. > How does Cincom reply to this... a Dpi setting ?.. scalable graphics ?.. text did you find a viable alternative to Cairo / Pango ?.. many years to go ?.. stille evaluating alternatifs .. they made a decision ? .. Abandoning ?.. doityourself ?... > > @+Maarten, > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by Maarten Mostert
I fear that Wrapper (the current VisualWorks UI framework) will not be
enhanced to deal with the increased DPI of new hardware. Back in the 1990s most UI frameworks were similar; they had the same widgets, they used few visual effects, font handling was simple and touch was not invented. At that point of time emulating the UI was possible. Today the situation is totally opposite and emulation is a dead end: Emulating, for example, the new touch-based UIs will be next to impossible. With web applications there are no problems, since VisualWorks uses other technologies to render the UI: CSS, HTML and JavaScript. The implementation of rendering and interaction is left to web browsers. Likewise, interfacing to existing UI frameworks is the way to solve the problem for desktop applications. Sure, cross platform portability will be lost, but I suspect this is not a major selling point of VisualWorks anymore. As a start, Cincom could look at interfacing to the “Modern UI Style” found in Windows 8. Just like with Win32, C++ programs are first class citizen in WinRT. This gives hope that the VisualWorks virtual machine could run in this environment. Regards, Runar Jordahl 2012/9/30 <[hidden email]>: > Within a year all macs will have Retina displays and Windows machines will > be close to follow. > > How does Cincom reply to this... a Dpi setting ?.. scalable graphics ?.. > text did you find a viable alternative to Cairo / Pango ?.. many years to > go ?.. stille evaluating alternatifs .. they made a decision ? .. Abandoning > ?.. doityourself ?... _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Wasn't there an effort a few years ago to use web components to
produce a user interface for VW (or was that for Squeak)? Each window would use a single web browser component that filled the window, and widgets are managed by that browser component. Is it practical? -Carl On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Runar Jordahl <[hidden email]> wrote: > I fear that Wrapper (the current VisualWorks UI framework) will not be > enhanced to deal with the increased DPI of new hardware. > > Back in the 1990s most UI frameworks were similar; they had the same > widgets, they used few visual effects, font handling was simple and > touch was not invented. At that point of time emulating the UI was > possible. Today the situation is totally opposite and emulation is a > dead end: Emulating, for example, the new touch-based UIs will be next > to impossible. > > With web applications there are no problems, since VisualWorks uses > other technologies to render the UI: CSS, HTML and JavaScript. The > implementation of rendering and interaction is left to web browsers. > Likewise, interfacing to existing UI frameworks is the way to solve > the problem for desktop applications. Sure, cross platform portability > will be lost, but I suspect this is not a major selling point of > VisualWorks anymore. > > As a start, Cincom could look at interfacing to the “Modern UI Style” > found in Windows 8. Just like with Win32, C++ programs are first class > citizen in WinRT. This gives hope that the VisualWorks virtual machine > could run in this environment. > > Regards, > Runar Jordahl > > 2012/9/30 <[hidden email]>: >> Within a year all macs will have Retina displays and Windows machines will >> be close to follow. >> >> How does Cincom reply to this... a Dpi setting ?.. scalable graphics ?.. >> text did you find a viable alternative to Cairo / Pango ?.. many years to >> go ?.. stille evaluating alternatifs .. they made a decision ? .. Abandoning >> ?.. doityourself ?... > > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Thanks for all your answers
Alexandre Le 5 oct. 2012 à 16:46, Carl Gundel <[hidden email]> a écrit : > Wasn't there an effort a few years ago to use web components to > produce a user interface for VW (or was that for Squeak)? Each window > would use a single web browser component that filled the window, and > widgets are managed by that browser component. > > Is it practical? > > -Carl > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Runar Jordahl <[hidden email]> wrote: >> I fear that Wrapper (the current VisualWorks UI framework) will not be >> enhanced to deal with the increased DPI of new hardware. >> >> Back in the 1990s most UI frameworks were similar; they had the same >> widgets, they used few visual effects, font handling was simple and >> touch was not invented. At that point of time emulating the UI was >> possible. Today the situation is totally opposite and emulation is a >> dead end: Emulating, for example, the new touch-based UIs will be next >> to impossible. >> >> With web applications there are no problems, since VisualWorks uses >> other technologies to render the UI: CSS, HTML and JavaScript. The >> implementation of rendering and interaction is left to web browsers. >> Likewise, interfacing to existing UI frameworks is the way to solve >> the problem for desktop applications. Sure, cross platform portability >> will be lost, but I suspect this is not a major selling point of >> VisualWorks anymore. >> >> As a start, Cincom could look at interfacing to the “Modern UI Style” >> found in Windows 8. Just like with Win32, C++ programs are first class >> citizen in WinRT. This gives hope that the VisualWorks virtual machine >> could run in this environment. >> >> Regards, >> Runar Jordahl >> >> 2012/9/30 <[hidden email]>: >>> Within a year all macs will have Retina displays and Windows machines will >>> be close to follow. >>> >>> How does Cincom reply to this... a Dpi setting ?.. scalable graphics ?.. >>> text did you find a viable alternative to Cairo / Pango ?.. many years to >>> go ?.. stille evaluating alternatifs .. they made a decision ? .. Abandoning >>> ?.. doityourself ?... >> >> _______________________________________________ >> vwnc mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc > > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by Runar Jordahl
On 05.10.2012, at 20:26, Runar Jordahl wrote:
> Likewise, interfacing to existing UI frameworks is the way to solve > the problem for desktop applications. Sure, cross platform portability > will be lost, but I suspect this is not a major selling point of > VisualWorks anymore. Absolutely agree. As long as there is a platform-agnostic API at the application level, I don't see any problems. The real concern however is that interfacing to UI frameworks requires a multi-threaded VM and a thread-safe base image. An object engine that sits on a secondary thread, entirely enclosed in itself, won't be able to integrate. > Wasn't there an effort a few years ago to use web components to > produce a user interface for VW (or was that for Squeak)? Each window > would use a single web browser component that filled the window, and > widgets are managed by that browser component. > > Is it practical? I don't think so. This would be entirely backwards. Andre _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by Maarten Mostert
Humm,... It will take Cincom years to evaluate and many more to integrate another UI framework. I think that they should fix Cairo and Pango once for all (why don't they manage to support that ?????), build a nice single default look and feel, make a new Pango based editor, integrate a system wide dpi setting, get grid to supported and continue de skin project in parallel. This would keep them backwards compatible and allows them to solve many many many problems. @+Maarten, -----Original Message----- On 05.10.2012, at 20:26, Runar Jordahl wrote: _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by Runar Jordahl
On 05.10.2012, at 20:26, Runar Jordahl wrote: > Sure, cross platform portability will be lost, but I suspect this is not a major selling point of VisualWorks anymore. I think it still is, because a common code base is the only economically reasonable option. However, the need for platform-agnostic runtime images is really questionable. Products need to be built and packaged per each deployment platform anyway (application structure, resources, installers), so why bother with a single generic image? I'm building the final runtime images along with executables and installers fully automated and separately on Windows and Mac. Due to the specific utilities that are involved (code signing, copy protection, native installers), these procedures need to be run on different OS anyway. Who cares about platform-agnostic runtime images? Even development images could probably be built per platform. Andre _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by Maarten Mostert
On 08.10.2012, at 05:39, [hidden email] wrote:
What I am more concerned about is that, once the new Retina Macs will arrive (presumably in 1-3 years), all businesses currently relying on Cincom Smalltalk could possibly be seriously threatened, if this is not being addressed in time. Worst case would be if applications ran at 25% of their intended size, which is certainly not an option. Has anyone run VisualWorks on a new Retina MacBook Pro? Do older apps scale fine? How does it look? Andre _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 7:40 AM, andre <[hidden email]> wrote:
I dont have one of the new retina screens, but I recently upgraded my home monitor from 19" to 27". As expected I had to raise the font sizes of various things in windows and other programs I use. But VisualWorks had no such option to change the default font size -- thus my hobby development is severely restricted. Im sure there is some workspace snippet that will change the default font size, but something as basic as that should be in the settings dialogs. _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by andre
On 10/16/2012 9:40 AM, andre wrote:
> What I am more concerned about is that, once the new Retina Macs will > arrive (presumably in 1-3 years), all businesses currently relying on > Cincom Smalltalk could possibly be seriously threatened, if this is not > being addressed in time. > > Worst case would be if applications ran at 25% of their intended size, > which is certainly not an option. Has anyone run VisualWorks on a new > Retina MacBook Pro? Do older apps scale fine? How does it look? It looks like VW -- the font sizes are fine. One problem that I've noticed is the progress overlay from store. When it is displayed, the underlying window's content is shown larger than it should be. John Brant _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by andre
On 17/10/2012, at 1:10 AM, andre <[hidden email]> wrote: > Worst case would be if applications ran at 25% of their intended size, which is certainly not an option. Has anyone run VisualWorks on a new Retina MacBook Pro? Do older apps scale fine? How does it look? Yes, it's my primary platform. There are a few minor glitches to do with the drawing of some controls elements such as scrollbars, which we know about. Apart from that, it works fine. Antony Blakey -------------------------- Ph: +61 438 840 787 A Man may make a Remark – In itself – a quiet thing That may furnish the Fuse unto a Spark In dormant nature – lain – Let us divide – with skill – Let us discourse – with care – Powder exists in Charcoal – Before it exists in Fire – -– Emily Dickinson 913 (1865) _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by John Brant-2
On 17/10/2012, at 4:14 AM, John Brant <[hidden email]> wrote: > One problem that I've noticed is the progress overlay from store. When it is displayed, the underlying window's content is shown larger than it should be. This occurs on all faux OS X titlebar panels. It has no functional impact because the window content is inactive at that point. Still, it's on our list of things to fix. Antony Blakey -------------------------- Ph: +61 438 840 787 Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by Antony Blakey-3
On 17.10.2012, at 00:44, Antony Blakey wrote:
> On 17/10/2012, at 1:10 AM, andre <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Worst case would be if applications ran at 25% of their intended size, which is certainly not an option. Has anyone run VisualWorks on a new Retina MacBook Pro? Do older apps scale fine? How does it look? > > Yes, it's my primary platform. There are a few minor glitches to do with the drawing of some controls elements such as scrollbars, which we know about. Apart from that, it works fine. Hi Antony, good to know, thanks. Are screen coordinates scaled up by OS X automatically, or does everything shrink to half the size? Andre _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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On Windows 7 (and presumably Vista), with a dpi/font size set to 150%
(Screen Resolution | Make text and other items larger or smaller, ), VW draws its windows as normal, pixel for pixel, and then Windows scales the bitmap of the resulting window contents up to 150%. The result is rather ugly. If you call SetProcessDPIAware with DLL/CC (or presumably by setting it in the VM manifest), VW draws the windows as before, pixel for pixel, but Windows does not scale the bitmap of the window contents up. The result is rather tiny compared to other apps. (This also reveals a problem with Screen>>boundsAround: - see * below.) Setting VW's default font to large helps for some of the widgets, but many use the #system pseudo-font and remain small. Changing WinXPLookPolicy class>>defaultSystemFontScale to ^0.8 * 1.50 and reinitializing WinXPLookPolicy will get the #system font working. I thought this would make all texts too big for the space allocated to them in windowSpecs, but actually it's not too bad: because we have to support Mac and Motif, whose system fonts in VW are naturally bigger, we've left enough space in many cases. The result is rather cramped, but not totally unusable. Given that VW has long had the mechanism for scaling up font sizes based on the platform (VariableCharacterAttributes / VariableSizeTextAttributes), I think the mechanism could be used for this too. A good description of how Windows behaves is available here: http://www.kynosarges.de/WindowsDpi.html. A change to Screen>>resolution to return something other than a fixed 75dpi might also be a good idea - most screens have been around 96dpi for over a decade, and now the range is roughly 100-300. All the best, Steve * Problem with Screen>>boundsAround:, revealed after SetProcessDPIAware - #boundsAround: then returns nil when opening a menu in the right 1/3 of the screen, causing a UHE. The immediate cause is that Screen's bounds are scaled by 1/(150%), so a point in the right 1/3 is outside them: Windows has lied to VW on startup, so that it can then scale up VW's windows. Maybe the manifest would avoid this lie, and of course it could be corrected by reinitializing Screen when sending SetProcessDPIAware, but still there is a clear misunderstanding between #boundsAround: and its senders, which should be corrected regardless of the DPI issues. Of the base senders of #boundsAround:, one expects a nil and uses it, half of the rest allow a nil and replace it with Screen default bounds, and the other half don't expect a nil and give a UHE. I suggest that #boundsAround: should be changed to return the whole Screen bounds rather than nil - its name implies it always returns a Rectangle, and half of the base users have been fooled by this. The other half will be fine, and behave as they always did - their nil handling can be removed at some point. The current contents of #boundsAround: can be pushed down into a new private #boundsOrNilAround:, which the one method that usefully expects a nil can call (Screen's own preferredRectangleToConstrain:). PS most tests on 7.7.1, with a quick check that the basic problems still exist in 7.9. -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of andre Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 10:13 AM To: Antony Blakey Cc: VWNC list Subject: Re: [vwnc] Retina screens On 17.10.2012, at 00:44, Antony Blakey wrote: > On 17/10/2012, at 1:10 AM, andre <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Worst case would be if applications ran at 25% of their intended size, which is certainly not an option. Has anyone run VisualWorks on a new Retina MacBook Pro? Do older apps scale fine? How does it look? > > Yes, it's my primary platform. There are a few minor glitches to do with the drawing of some controls elements such as scrollbars, which we know about. Apart from that, it works fine. Hi Antony, good to know, thanks. Are screen coordinates scaled up by OS X automatically, or does everything shrink to half the size? Andre _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by andre
On 17/10/2012, at 5:43 PM, andre <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Are screen coordinates scaled up by OS X automatically, or does everything shrink to half the size? OS X takes care of it. It shows at normal size. Antony Blakey -------------------------- Ph: +61 438 840 787 The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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In reply to this post by Maarten Mostert
Apparently, Windows 8 also struggles a bit with high DPI displayes, see http://techreport.com/review/23631/how-windows-8-scaling-fails-on-high-ppi-displays/2 |
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