Retina support in Pharo
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Hi
Is it possible to get Pharo (4 or 5) to run with retina support on OS X? I have tried searching for some answers, but alas could only find a handful of posts from a few years back. Any help much appreciated! Mark |
Re: Retina support in Pharo
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I asked about this just a few days ago, here's the reply: On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:37 PM, markm <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi Luís Felipe Strano Moraes
http://www.strano.org |
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I am about to buy a new laptop. Pharo does not work with Retina display?
How can it be? Alexandre > On May 17, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Luis Felipe Strano Moraes <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I asked about this just a few days ago, here's the reply: > > http://forum.world.st/Pharo-and-HiDPI-tc4894853.html > > > > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:37 PM, markm <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi > > Is it possible to get Pharo (4 or 5) to run with retina support on OS X? I > have tried searching for some answers, but alas could only find a handful of > posts from a few years back. > > Any help much appreciated! > > > Mark > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Retina-support-in-Pharo-tp4895245.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > > > -- > Luís Felipe Strano Moraes > http://www.strano.org -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. |
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it works.
just fonts could be better (and eventually, they will). Esteban > On 17 May 2016, at 21:32, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I am about to buy a new laptop. Pharo does not work with Retina display? > How can it be? > > Alexandre > > >> On May 17, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Luis Felipe Strano Moraes <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> I asked about this just a few days ago, here's the reply: >> >> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-and-HiDPI-tc4894853.html >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:37 PM, markm <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Hi >> >> Is it possible to get Pharo (4 or 5) to run with retina support on OS X? I >> have tried searching for some answers, but alas could only find a handful of >> posts from a few years back. >> >> Any help much appreciated! >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Retina-support-in-Pharo-tp4895245.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Luís Felipe Strano Moraes >> http://www.strano.org > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > |
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In reply to this post by abergel
> I am about to buy a new laptop. Pharo does not work with Retina display? > How can it be? Alexandre I'm sorry to see this email. We all worked like mad and Esteban did A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF WORK. Nearly nobody on this list really understand what is to write a new FFI framework and Esteban got nearly burnt by Spur and by UFFI. It was not our plan to get forced to do such tasks. So Esteban did not time to work on Retina support. It looks quite simple to me. Now what all pharoers should deeply understand is that if - people would not only focus on their projects (even if they are important) but help with pharo issues, then core engineers would have more time for the things that others cannot do. Easy no. - the pharo consortium does not raise enough money we will not be able to pay Esteban in the future. So enjoy this moment because we have Esteban on managing releases and all the dirty work Nicolas Passerini payed by the consortium for 9 months to work on Git support Pavel to work on bootstrap, bugfixes and pharo distributions Christophe Demarey 60% on bootstrap and pharo package manager Guillermo 60% on bootstrap and others And this will not be forever. Stef > > Alexandre > > >> On May 17, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Luis Felipe Strano Moraes <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> I asked about this just a few days ago, here's the reply: >> >> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-and-HiDPI-tc4894853.html >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:37 PM, markm <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Hi >> >> Is it possible to get Pharo (4 or 5) to run with retina support on OS X? I >> have tried searching for some answers, but alas could only find a handful of >> posts from a few years back. >> >> Any help much appreciated! >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Retina-support-in-Pharo-tp4895245.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Luís Felipe Strano Moraes >> http://www.strano.org |
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My email was _not_ about judging the community effort, but more on whether pharo work on a Retina laptop.
What happens if Pharo is launched on a retina computer? Cheers, Alexandre > On May 17, 2016, at 2:47 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: > > >> I am about to buy a new laptop. Pharo does not work with Retina display? >> How can it be? > Alexandre > I'm sorry to see this email. > We all worked like mad and Esteban did A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF WORK. > Nearly nobody on this list really understand what is to write a new FFI framework and Esteban > got nearly burnt by Spur and by UFFI. It was not our plan to get forced to do such tasks. > So Esteban did not time to work on Retina support. It looks quite simple to me. > > Now what all pharoers should deeply understand is that if > - people would not only focus on their projects (even if they are important) but > help with pharo issues, then core engineers would have more time for the things > that others cannot do. Easy no. > - the pharo consortium does not raise enough money we will not be able to pay > Esteban in the future. > > So enjoy this moment because we have > Esteban on managing releases and all the dirty work > Nicolas Passerini payed by the consortium for 9 months to work on Git support > Pavel to work on bootstrap, bugfixes and pharo distributions > Christophe Demarey 60% on bootstrap and pharo package manager > Guillermo 60% on bootstrap and others > > And this will not be forever. > Stef >> >> Alexandre >> >> >>> On May 17, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Luis Felipe Strano Moraes <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> I asked about this just a few days ago, here's the reply: >>> >>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-and-HiDPI-tc4894853.html >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:37 PM, markm <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> Is it possible to get Pharo (4 or 5) to run with retina support on OS X? I >>> have tried searching for some answers, but alas could only find a handful of >>> posts from a few years back. >>> >>> Any help much appreciated! >>> >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Retina-support-in-Pharo-tp4895245.html >>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Luís Felipe Strano Moraes >>> http://www.strano.org > > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. |
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In reply to this post by EstebanLM
Okay, this is what I suspected. So buying a new laptop will not prevent me from using Pharo :-)
Alexandre > On May 17, 2016, at 2:38 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote: > > it works. > just fonts could be better (and eventually, they will). > > Esteban > >> On 17 May 2016, at 21:32, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> I am about to buy a new laptop. Pharo does not work with Retina display? >> How can it be? >> >> Alexandre >> >> >>> On May 17, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Luis Felipe Strano Moraes <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> I asked about this just a few days ago, here's the reply: >>> >>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-and-HiDPI-tc4894853.html >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:37 PM, markm <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> Is it possible to get Pharo (4 or 5) to run with retina support on OS X? I >>> have tried searching for some answers, but alas could only find a handful of >>> posts from a few years back. >>> >>> Any help much appreciated! >>> >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Retina-support-in-Pharo-tp4895245.html >>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Luís Felipe Strano Moraes >>> http://www.strano.org >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> > > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. |
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In reply to this post by abergel
On 17 May 2016 at 22:14, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
You get the same thing as on a non-retina display, except instead of each fuzzy pixel you get a visibly sharper square made of 2×2 retina pixels. From sufficiently far away there's no difference, but when you're right in front of it you can see the pixelation, especially for text and compared to HiDPI-enabled apps in nearby windows. |
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In reply to this post by abergel
Le 17/5/16 à 22:14, Alexandre Bergel a écrit : > My email was _not_ about judging the community effort, but more on whether pharo work on a Retina laptop. ok > What happens if Pharo is launched on a retina computer? you get pixelized fonts. But I have other mac app doing the same. Stef > > Cheers, > Alexandre > > >> On May 17, 2016, at 2:47 PM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >>> I am about to buy a new laptop. Pharo does not work with Retina display? >>> How can it be? >> Alexandre >> I'm sorry to see this email. >> We all worked like mad and Esteban did A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF WORK. >> Nearly nobody on this list really understand what is to write a new FFI framework and Esteban >> got nearly burnt by Spur and by UFFI. It was not our plan to get forced to do such tasks. >> So Esteban did not time to work on Retina support. It looks quite simple to me. >> >> Now what all pharoers should deeply understand is that if >> - people would not only focus on their projects (even if they are important) but >> help with pharo issues, then core engineers would have more time for the things >> that others cannot do. Easy no. >> - the pharo consortium does not raise enough money we will not be able to pay >> Esteban in the future. >> >> So enjoy this moment because we have >> Esteban on managing releases and all the dirty work >> Nicolas Passerini payed by the consortium for 9 months to work on Git support >> Pavel to work on bootstrap, bugfixes and pharo distributions >> Christophe Demarey 60% on bootstrap and pharo package manager >> Guillermo 60% on bootstrap and others >> >> And this will not be forever. >> Stef >>> Alexandre >>> >>> >>>> On May 17, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Luis Felipe Strano Moraes <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> I asked about this just a few days ago, here's the reply: >>>> >>>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-and-HiDPI-tc4894853.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:37 PM, markm <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> Hi >>>> >>>> Is it possible to get Pharo (4 or 5) to run with retina support on OS X? I >>>> have tried searching for some answers, but alas could only find a handful of >>>> posts from a few years back. >>>> >>>> Any help much appreciated! >>>> >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Retina-support-in-Pharo-tp4895245.html >>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Luís Felipe Strano Moraes >>>> http://www.strano.org >> |
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In reply to this post by Damien Pollet-2
On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 10:21 PM, Damien Pollet
<[hidden email]> wrote: > On 17 May 2016 at 22:14, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> My email was _not_ about judging the community effort, but more on whether >> pharo work on a Retina laptop. >> What happens if Pharo is launched on a retina computer? > > > You get the same thing as on a non-retina display, except instead of each > fuzzy pixel you get a visibly sharper square made of 2×2 retina pixels. From > sufficiently far away there's no difference, but when you're right in front > of it you can see the pixelation, especially for text and compared to > HiDPI-enabled apps in nearby windows. I'm still having these peaky shadowed lines when I move the windows on my retina screen. -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ |
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In reply to this post by EstebanLM
Thanks for the update. Looking forward to the better fonts, but also appreciate all the hard work everyone has put in so far!
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Re: Retina support in Pharo
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In reply to this post by markm
> > What happens if Pharo is launched on a retina computer?
> You get the same thing as on a non-retina display, except instead of each > fuzzy pixel you get a visibly sharper square made of 2*2 retina pixels. > From sufficiently far away there's no difference, but when you're right in > front of it you can see the pixelation, especially for text and compared to > HiDPI-enabled apps in nearby windows. I have the same problem too. When working on OpenGL demo in C I noticed SDL2 does output the same ugly pixels by default, yet should support Retina screens (https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_CreateWindow - did not try, switched to GLFW which supports Retina out of the box). Is Pharo window created with native calls or SDL2? Cheers, Thibault |
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My guess is that retina support through Athens rendering and 64-bit are critical to greater adoption of Pharo for several reasons:
(1) First impressions matter greatly. If I try to get someone into Pharo and the first thing they see is a pixelated screen, they will have an immediate bad reaction. My students believed that Pharo was a toy language because of the pixelated rendering. Even when I explained why, I'm not sure they believed me (sure, prof, we believe you). The interface being slow also gives the impression that the entire system is slow. So, speed improvements from Spur are less tangible. For most newcomers, interface speed = system speed. (2) One of the first things newcomers will want to do with a new system is some sort of graphical user interface. Pharo's morphic is quite nice but the BitBlt rendering is off putting. So, even if newcomers buy that there are reasons for the rendering being not great, they will likely conclude that it isn't a system for them. (3) The vast majority of OSes are 64-bit and 32-bit packages are getting deprecated. So, even if there are nice ways to interface with the outside world, they are being held back. So, very small things, like sound on Ubuntu, don't work. It's not really worth fixing that until Pharo is 64-bit. Again, it looks like Pharo is behind the curve, rather than ahead of it. Now, that stated, I understand why things are the way they are. There are limited resources and there are things that take priority. In addition, there is the tension between Pharo as an engine for research ideas (roughly equates to the things where Pharo is ahead of the curve) and Pharo as a general purpose environment (most notable in places where Pharo is behind the curve). Pharo5 is a major accomplishment and I am excited by it. It is awesome what was accomplished. I have faith in the leadership in setting priorities and great appreciation for those putting in the time. My point in posting this is not to criticize past development or priorities but just to make the case that these two things on the horizon (retina support, 64-bit) are important to my use of Pharo and how newcomers will view the system. I wish I could contribute but the VM things are out of my zone of competence. Cheers, Jeff |
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Here’s a screenshot on a 5K iMac. Reading a « retina » pdf in background just to compare. Ok it’s a bit pixelated but I can notice it only if I’m 20cm from the screen (usually I’m 60cm). So perfectly usable. Of course retina support will give a sharper « look » but it’s not that important to me (to be honest I just realized it was pixelated when reading the post).  Cheers, Cédrik |
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In reply to this post by jrick
Thanks for this point of view.
Just to put a bit of perspective. Indeed, first impressions do count, and now we start to be able to address this part. It took a long time to be able to get to this point, and until now most of the efforts were internal facing (new compiler, new debugger, new VM, new UFFI etc). We are still not in polishing mode, though. We still have internal pieces to fit together (like 64 bit, Sista, image changes management and some others) and we still need a more flexible UI part (which is what the Bloc effort is about). Especially with Bloc, we are approaching the surface, and I strongly believe the future changes will have more visible effects. Cheers, Doru > On May 18, 2016, at 3:39 PM, J.F. Rick <[hidden email]> wrote: > > My guess is that retina support through Athens rendering and 64-bit are critical to greater adoption of Pharo for several reasons: > (1) First impressions matter greatly. If I try to get someone into Pharo and the first thing they see is a pixelated screen, they will have an immediate bad reaction. My students believed that Pharo was a toy language because of the pixelated rendering. Even when I explained why, I'm not sure they believed me (sure, prof, we believe you). The interface being slow also gives the impression that the entire system is slow. So, speed improvements from Spur are less tangible. For most newcomers, interface speed = system speed. > (2) One of the first things newcomers will want to do with a new system is some sort of graphical user interface. Pharo's morphic is quite nice but the BitBlt rendering is off putting. So, even if newcomers buy that there are reasons for the rendering being not great, they will likely conclude that it isn't a system for them. > (3) The vast majority of OSes are 64-bit and 32-bit packages are getting deprecated. So, even if there are nice ways to interface with the outside world, they are being held back. So, very small things, like sound on Ubuntu, don't work. It's not really worth fixing that until Pharo is 64-bit. Again, it looks like Pharo is behind the curve, rather than ahead of it. > > Now, that stated, I understand why things are the way they are. There are limited resources and there are things that take priority. In addition, there is the tension between Pharo as an engine for research ideas (roughly equates to the things where Pharo is ahead of the curve) and Pharo as a general purpose environment (most notable in places where Pharo is behind the curve). > > Pharo5 is a major accomplishment and I am excited by it. It is awesome what was accomplished. I have faith in the leadership in setting priorities and great appreciation for those putting in the time. My point in posting this is not to criticize past development or priorities but just to make the case that these two things on the horizon (retina support, 64-bit) are important to my use of Pharo and how newcomers will view the system. I wish I could contribute but the VM things are out of my zone of competence. > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with." |
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In reply to this post by Damien Pollet-2
You can also open an info window about the Pharo.app and check the “Open in low resolution” box. Then you will have a real pixelated graphics and now blurry (which can be annoying). Cheers. Uko
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Hi,
Has any work been done of this? If not, could someone point me in the right direction to start it, perhaps with a list of what is already known about the issue? I'd be willing to look at both MacOS and Windows HiDPI rendering at the same time. Presumably the 64 bit MacOS build is Cocoa based, so that would be the right starting point? Although I have decades of experience of the above platforms, I'm a relative novice with the Smalltalk libraries - so any hints as to how the rendering process currently hangs together (and how much is Smalltalk vs native rendering) would be really helpful. Regards, Andy. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html |
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I may be wrong but last time I checked access to the OS Graphics API was handled by the VM itself. There was a talk about decoupling that from the VM and porting it to the image but no idea if it happened. if it was the pragma primitive inside the method that means it calls native code , the second case is using the UFFI which is the official FFI of Pharo. The Pragma needs a VM rebuild , the UFFI does not. These are the two ways that Pharo intefaces with native code (C/ObjectiveC etc). So for starters you are going to need the VMMaker which is responsible for building the VM , the good news is that it retains a lot of the live coding characteristics and can even compile smalltalk to C (Slang) which is how it keeps most of the code in Smalltalk rather than C. If the Graphics API is still inside the VM then Eliot and other contributors will be able to point you at the VM mailing list at the right direction. If it is not then pharo-dev mailing list will most likely have the developer/s responsible for porting it to the image and they will also be able to point you to the right direction. I dont think experience in smalltalk would play a big role here mainly because its a C problem than a Smalltalk problem cause those libraries that offer Retina support are written and meant to be used by C (ObjC) , this applies for both primitive pragmas and UFFI. You experience with Cocoa is going to be the crucial factor here, if you know how to do it in C , doing it in Smalltalk is relative easy. You may also be able to pintpoint the methods responsible for the rendering by inserting a breakpoint in a window's draw method. The debugger should be able to give you the stack back to the primitive/uffi call. Of course it will require a bit of navigating around but such is the nature and curse of coding. On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:13 AM andyl <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi, |
Re: Retina support in Pharo
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In reply to this post by andyl
Hi Andy,
I have not idea. But this would be a very valuable effort. Cheers, Alexandre > On Sep 18, 2018, at 5:12 AM, andyl <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi, > > Has any work been done of this? If not, could someone point me in the right > direction to start it, perhaps with a list of what is already known about > the issue? I'd be willing to look at both MacOS and Windows HiDPI rendering > at the same time. > > Presumably the 64 bit MacOS build is Cocoa based, so that would be the right > starting point? > > Although I have decades of experience of the above platforms, I'm a relative > novice with the Smalltalk libraries - so any hints as to how the rendering > process currently hangs together (and how much is Smalltalk vs native > rendering) would be really helpful. > > Regards, > Andy. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > |
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