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Running CodeCity in Pharo?

Torben Knerr
Hi everybody,

is there a Pharo port of Code City?

I am wondering because the use of VisualWorks Smalltalk and the
license restrictions that come with it make it impossible to use Code
City in a commercial setting (if I understand it right).

Cheers,
Torben
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Re: Running CodeCity in Pharo?

abergel
Hi Torben,

> is there a Pharo port of Code City?

Not that I am aware of.

> I am wondering because the use of VisualWorks Smalltalk and the
> license restrictions that come with it make it impossible to use Code
> City in a commercial setting (if I understand it right).


I could not check what is the license of CodeCity. If it is open source, and you already have VisualWorks, then you should be able to use it without problem.

Cheers,
Alexandre

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.



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Re: Running CodeCity in Pharo?

Andrea Caracciolo
Hi,

You should probably ask Stéphane Ducasse.
If i remember well they are working on porting CodeCity to Pharo.

cheers,
Andrea

On Aug 13, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote:

> Hi Torben,
>
>> is there a Pharo port of Code City?
>
> Not that I am aware of.
>
>> I am wondering because the use of VisualWorks Smalltalk and the
>> license restrictions that come with it make it impossible to use Code
>> City in a commercial setting (if I understand it right).
>
>
> I could not check what is the license of CodeCity. If it is open source, and you already have VisualWorks, then you should be able to use it without problem.
>
> Cheers,
> Alexandre
>
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev


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Re: Running CodeCity in Pharo?

Torben Knerr
In reply to this post by abergel
Hi Alexandre,

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Alexandre Bergel
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Torben,
>
>> is there a Pharo port of Code City?
>
> Not that I am aware of.

I remember that Richard Wettel once mentioned in an email that the
Moose community were driven to port the whole toolchain to Pharo
because Cincom would not allow to use it in a commercial environment.
Looks like Code City was not ported then, otherwise you would probably
know :-)

The main reason for sticking with VisualWorks was that there was no
replacement for JUN in Pharo, Richard said.

>
>> I am wondering because the use of VisualWorks Smalltalk and the
>> license restrictions that come with it make it impossible to use Code
>> City in a commercial setting (if I understand it right).
>
>
> I could not check what is the license of CodeCity. If it is open source, and you already have VisualWorks, then you should be able to use it without problem.
>

Looks like the FAQ on the Code City homepage
(http://www.inf.usi.ch/phd/wettel/codecity-faq.html) was misleading to
me:

"""
1. Can I use CodeCity for commercial purposes?
Unfortunately, not. CodeCity is developed in VisualWorks Smalltalk
under an academic non-commercial license and its use is therefore
limited to non-commercial.
"""

Now that I actually read the license agreement
(http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView?content=nc_license)
I believe it would be even possible to use it commercially within an
90 days evaluation period. After that I would need to get a commercial
license for VisualWorks - exactly as you said.

Thanks,
Torben


> Cheers,
> Alexandre
>
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
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Re: Running CodeCity in Pharo?

Torben Knerr
In reply to this post by Andrea Caracciolo
Hi Andrea,

oh, that would be great!

Is Stéphane reading this mailing list? Otherwise I would contact him
directly I guess.

Thanks a lot,
Torben


On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Andrea Caracciolo
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> You should probably ask Stéphane Ducasse.
> If i remember well they are working on porting CodeCity to Pharo.
>
> cheers,
> Andrea
>
> On Aug 13, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote:
>
>> Hi Torben,
>>
>>> is there a Pharo port of Code City?
>>
>> Not that I am aware of.
>>
>>> I am wondering because the use of VisualWorks Smalltalk and the
>>> license restrictions that come with it make it impossible to use Code
>>> City in a commercial setting (if I understand it right).
>>
>>
>> I could not check what is the license of CodeCity. If it is open source, and you already have VisualWorks, then you should be able to use it without problem.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Alexandre
>>
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Moose-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

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Re: Running CodeCity in Pharo?

Andrea Caracciolo
He is very active on this mailing list.
You have good chances that he will reply to this thread :)


On Aug 13, 2012, at 4:17 PM, Torben Knerr wrote:

> Hi Andrea,
>
> oh, that would be great!
>
> Is Stéphane reading this mailing list? Otherwise I would contact him
> directly I guess.
>
> Thanks a lot,
> Torben
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Andrea Caracciolo
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> You should probably ask Stéphane Ducasse.
>> If i remember well they are working on porting CodeCity to Pharo.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Andrea
>>
>> On Aug 13, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Torben,
>>>
>>>> is there a Pharo port of Code City?
>>>
>>> Not that I am aware of.
>>>
>>>> I am wondering because the use of VisualWorks Smalltalk and the
>>>> license restrictions that come with it make it impossible to use Code
>>>> City in a commercial setting (if I understand it right).
>>>
>>>
>>> I could not check what is the license of CodeCity. If it is open source, and you already have VisualWorks, then you should be able to use it without problem.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Alexandre
>>>
>>> --
>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Moose-dev mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Moose-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Running CodeCity in Pharo?

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Torben Knerr
CodeCity uses Jun which is GPL. So indeed you cannot use it in a commercial settings.
As soon as you load code city in VisualWorks, then all your code and moose become GPL.

Now we are developing since more than six months a replacement from scratch but it will not be open-source.
Interested people will be able to contact us and we will license them the software.

Stef



> Hi everybody,
>
> is there a Pharo port of Code City?
>
> I am wondering because the use of VisualWorks Smalltalk and the
> license restrictions that come with it make it impossible to use Code
> City in a commercial setting (if I understand it right).
>
> Cheers,
> Torben
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev


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Re: Running CodeCity in Pharo?

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by abergel
>>
>
> Not that I am aware of.

We are developing a new version. Soon we will release a video and a web site.

>
>> I am wondering because the use of VisualWorks Smalltalk and the
>> license restrictions that come with it make it impossible to use Code
>> City in a commercial setting (if I understand it right).
>
>
> I could not check what is the license of CodeCity. If it is open source, and you already have VisualWorks, then you should be able to use it without problem.

No this is plain wrong.
You cannot use VisualWorks in commercial settings without paying a license to cincom: this applies too to Moose.
Then Jun is under GPL so automatically all you code is GPL.

>
> Cheers,
> Alexandre
>
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev


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Re: Running CodeCity in Pharo?

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by Andrea Caracciolo
>
> Hi,
>
> You should probably ask Stéphane Ducasse.
> If i remember well they are working on porting CodeCity to Pharo.

not porting it. rewriting a completely new solution.


>
> cheers,
> Andrea
>
> On Aug 13, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote:
>
>> Hi Torben,
>>
>>> is there a Pharo port of Code City?
>>
>> Not that I am aware of.
>>
>>> I am wondering because the use of VisualWorks Smalltalk and the
>>> license restrictions that come with it make it impossible to use Code
>>> City in a commercial setting (if I understand it right).
>>
>>
>> I could not check what is the license of CodeCity. If it is open source, and you already have VisualWorks, then you should be able to use it without problem.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Alexandre
>>
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Moose-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev


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Re: Running CodeCity in Pharo?

abergel
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
>> I could not check what is the license of CodeCity. If it is open source, and you already have VisualWorks, then you should be able to use it without problem.
>
> No this is plain wrong.

I do not think so. We are talking about different thing.
If a company has already bought VisualWorks, then it can use Moose, CodeCity and Jun for free.

Alexandre

> You cannot use VisualWorks in commercial settings without paying a license to cincom: this applies too to Moose.
> Then Jun is under GPL so automatically all you code is GPL.
>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Alexandre
>>
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Moose-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.



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Re: Running CodeCity in Pharo?

Stéphane Ducasse

On Aug 14, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote:

>>> I could not check what is the license of CodeCity. If it is open source, and you already have VisualWorks, then you should be able to use it without problem.
>>
>> No this is plain wrong.
>
> I do not think so. We are talking about different thing.
> If a company has already bought VisualWorks, then it can use Moose,

Yes but having in your sentence was not bought. So having VisualWorks is not the correct term.

> CodeCity and Jun for free.

Now such company would have to pay attention that JUN is GPL so it means that as soon as
it uses CodeCity and build anything on top or around then it can be forced to publish its code in GPL.

Now a lot of companies are crappy and use GPL code without any care but this is at their own risk.

Clearly I will never copy any piece of code from codeCity into MoosePharo because CodeCity uses JUN and as such it is GPL
and Moose will never be GPL.

Stef

>
> Alexandre
>
>> You cannot use VisualWorks in commercial settings without paying a license to cincom: this applies too to Moose.
>> Then Jun is under GPL so automatically all you code is GPL.
>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Alexandre
>>>
>>> --
>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Moose-dev mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Moose-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev


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Re: Running CodeCity in Pharo?

Stéphane Ducasse
A final remark Torben if you sell assessment reports built based on Moose (even if moose is open-source)
you will have to pay a license for VisualWorks. As soon as you make money from the outcome of something
running with VisualWorks you have to pay them a license fee.
This is also why we moved to Pharo.


Stef

>>>> I could not check what is the license of CodeCity. If it is open source, and you already have VisualWorks, then you should be able to use it without problem.
>>>
>>> No this is plain wrong.
>>
>> I do not think so. We are talking about different thing.
>> If a company has already bought VisualWorks, then it can use Moose,
>
> Yes but having in your sentence was not bought. So having VisualWorks is not the correct term.
>
>> CodeCity and Jun for free.
>
> Now such company would have to pay attention that JUN is GPL so it means that as soon as
> it uses CodeCity and build anything on top or around then it can be forced to publish its code in GPL.
>
> Now a lot of companies are crappy and use GPL code without any care but this is at their own risk.
>
> Clearly I will never copy any piece of code from codeCity into MoosePharo because CodeCity uses JUN and as such it is GPL
> and Moose will never be GPL.
>
> Stef
>
>>
>> Alexandre
>>
>>> You cannot use VisualWorks in commercial settings without paying a license to cincom: this applies too to Moose.
>>> Then Jun is under GPL so automatically all you code is GPL.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Alexandre
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>>>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Moose-dev mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Moose-dev mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>>
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Moose-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>
>
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Re: Running CodeCity in Pharo?

Torben Knerr
In reply to this post by abergel
Hi Alexandre,

sorry, I'm missing some context here. Was this an answer from Stéphane Ducasse?

Cheers,
Torben

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Alexandre Bergel
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>>> I could not check what is the license of CodeCity. If it is open source, and you already have VisualWorks, then you should be able to use it without problem.
>>
>> No this is plain wrong.
>
> I do not think so. We are talking about different thing.
> If a company has already bought VisualWorks, then it can use Moose, CodeCity and Jun for free.
>
> Alexandre
>
>> You cannot use VisualWorks in commercial settings without paying a license to cincom: this applies too to Moose.
>> Then Jun is under GPL so automatically all you code is GPL.
>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Alexandre
>>>
>>> --
>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Moose-dev mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Moose-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

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Re: Running CodeCity in Pharo?

abergel
I answered Stef yes

Alexandre


On Aug 20, 2012, at 2:23 AM, Torben Knerr <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Alexandre,
>
> sorry, I'm missing some context here. Was this an answer from Stéphane Ducasse?
>
> Cheers,
> Torben
>
> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Alexandre Bergel
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> I could not check what is the license of CodeCity. If it is open source, and you already have VisualWorks, then you should be able to use it without problem.
>>>
>>> No this is plain wrong.
>>
>> I do not think so. We are talking about different thing.
>> If a company has already bought VisualWorks, then it can use Moose, CodeCity and Jun for free.
>>
>> Alexandre
>>
>>> You cannot use VisualWorks in commercial settings without paying a license to cincom: this applies too to Moose.
>>> Then Jun is under GPL so automatically all you code is GPL.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Alexandre
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>>>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Moose-dev mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Moose-dev mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>>
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Moose-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.




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