SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1)

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
15 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1)

Chris Cunnington
Hi Chris M., 

1. It's been renamed "SqueakMap Catalog". There is no "SqueakMap Package Loader" on 4.1 from the "open ..." menu. 

2. You and I should be made admins to it -- immediately. The category you wanted added -- 4.1 -- could be added from the online (map.squeak.org/SMSqueakMapAdminView) control panel in two seconds, if we were. 

3. The "bus factor" of SM is 0.5. That is, Göran is so busy, he's paying attention part of the time.  It'll get worse when he's a mentor for the Google Summer Of Code. 

4. It's hard to get replies from Göran no matter what. The guy is just plain busy. 

5. If SM is going to be relevant to the community, then the load has got to be spread around some. 

6. Göran's code and SM in general is the best example of Smalltalk I've ever seen. If there were class (with chairs) on Squeak you could learn everything you needed to equip yourself learning it alone, which brings me to ...

7. HttpView2 is awesome. This is where people wanting to build web pages with Smalltalk should start. (Get the one from SqueakSource. The one on SM will not load.) Seaside is great, but I don't have many complex ( read none ) domain models to create views for. HV2 deserves higher exposure if for no other reason that it's mature, simple, and doesn't change under you, while you're trying to learn it. 

8. The Guild is really funny. http://www.watchtheguild.com

9. Göran is funny too. Naming a method "seppuku" is just amusing. He's always throwing in stuff like that. Reading his code is fun. #ping ^'pong' should be in every web application by fiat. 

10. map.squeak.org is hosted on a 3.8 image. This is not good, I don't think. 

11. SMServer (won't load from SM; not available on SS) cannot be loaded into 4.1. This is not good, if for no reason other than it is an excellent example of how to build a worthwhile application with HV2. Also, it's server to the client in every Squeak image -- SMSqueakMap. 

12. If the duties Göran would have to perform for SM aren't spread around, then SM will keep drifting away. 


Chris C.


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1)

Göran Krampe
Hi folks!

(btw, cc me personally, I am swamped currently and don't have time to
scan squeak-dev at the moment)

Chris Cunnington wrote:
> Hi Chris M.,
>
> 1. It's been renamed "SqueakMap Catalog". There is no "SqueakMap Package
> Loader" on 4.1 from the "open ..." menu.

Right.

> 2. You and I should be made admins to it -- immediately. The category
> you wanted added -- 4.1 -- could be added from the online
> (map.squeak.org/SMSqueakMapAdminView
> <http://map.squeak.org/SMSqueakMapAdminView>) control panel in two
> seconds, if we were.

I can fix that, BUT... that UI is a bit oddish to work with. But I will
later today add new categories if you guys can figure out what they
should be! Remember that they should match what SystemVersion reports etc.

> 3. The "bus factor" of SM is 0.5. That is, Göran is so busy, he's paying
> attention part of the time.  It'll get worse when he's a mentor for the
> Google Summer Of Code.

Well, I think it will get better-ish soonish. :)

> 4. It's hard to get replies from Göran no matter what. The guy is just
> plain busy.

...yes. But I always answer personal email, and if not, email again.

> 5. If SM is going to be relevant to the community, then the load has got
> to be spread around some.

True! Been asking for that for... many years.

> 6. Göran's code and SM in general is the best example of Smalltalk I've
> ever seen. If there were class (with chairs) on Squeak you could learn
> everything you needed to equip yourself learning it alone, which brings
> me to ...

The code is not that good. I am ashamed of quite a bit of cruft in there.

> 7. HttpView2 is awesome. This is where people wanting to build web pages
> with Smalltalk should start. (Get the one from SqueakSource. The one on
> SM will not load.) Seaside is great, but I don't have many complex (
> read none ) domain models to create views for. HV2 deserves higher
> exposure if for no other reason that it's mature, simple, and doesn't
> change under you, while you're trying to learn it.

Well, it is at least SIMPLE. Awesome might be a too strong word. Have
never used Aida etc.

> 8. The Guild is really funny. http://www.watchtheguild.com
>
> 9. Göran is funny too. Naming a method "seppuku" is just amusing. He's
> always throwing in stuff like that. Reading his code is fun. #ping
> ^'pong' should be in every web application by fiat.

:)

> 10. map.squeak.org <http://map.squeak.org> is hosted on a 3.8 image.
> This is not good, I don't think.

Nope, not good. But didn't dare upgrade it.

> 11. SMServer (won't load from SM; not available on SS) cannot be loaded
> into 4.1. This is not good, if for no reason other than it is an
> excellent example of how to build a worthwhile application with HV2.
> Also, it's server to the client in every Squeak image -- SMSqueakMap.
>
> 12. If the duties Göran would have to perform for SM aren't spread
> around, then SM will keep drifting away.

I would love help and I *really* appreciate your effort to get into it.

regards, Göran

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1)

Edgar J. De Cleene-3
In reply to this post by Chris Cunnington
Re: [squeak-dev] SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1)


On 4/22/10 1:31 AM, "Chris Cunnington" <[hidden email]> wrote:

7. HttpView2 is awesome. This is where people wanting to build web pages with Smalltalk should start. (Get the one from SqueakSource. The one on SM will not load.) Seaside is great, but I don't have many complex ( read none ) domain models to create views for. HV2 deserves higher exposure if for no other reason that it's mature, simple, and doesn't change under you, while you're trying to learn it. 

HttpView2  is wonderful  http://www.squeaksource.com/HttpView2.html
Current Göran Krampe , Giovanni Corriga was listed as developers but seems lack interest in it.
I using a lot and this days was building HVNaughtieWiki ,
I download all original files of  http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/ and learn how to make HVNaughtieWiki  shows the pages using HV and some fancy adds like adding css, having Hvcaptchca, etc.

In the way of have more morph  generated and web rendered goodies

Edgar



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1)

Stéphane Rollandin
> HttpView2 is wonderful http://www.squeaksource.com/HttpView2.html

Very good example of what I dislike in Squeaksource: go to the above
link, then try and find a *single sentence* explaining what this is
about. None.

Talk about documentation...


Stef



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1)

Hannes Hirzel
In reply to this post by Göran Krampe
On 4/22/10, Göran Krampe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi folks!
>> 10. map.squeak.org <http://map.squeak.org> is hosted on a 3.8 image.
>> This is not good, I don't think.
>
> Nope, not good. But didn't dare upgrade it.
>

I do not think for the time being that this is critical issue.

It does not matter as long as SqueakMap can deal with 4.1 catalog
entries and categories.

Which it does as http://map.squeak.org/recentnew shows.

There are recent entries dealing with 4.1
Lisp, Prolog, Maui (April 2010)

These days www.squeaksource.com has much more projects (2070 vs. 754
in SqueakMap)

Hannes

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

MultiMediaMonticelloPackage (was Re: [squeak-dev] SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1))

Edgar J. De Cleene-3

I really can't understand on keep some obsolete and which his own creator do
not have the time to care about.
We can't load any complex old thing in 4.1 without a long headaches day.
Take MultiMediaMonticelloPackage as the evolution of .sar, polish it, put
all in squeaksource and do well documentation for you project.

Edgar



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1)

Chris Muller-3
In reply to this post by Stéphane Rollandin
> Very good example of what I dislike in Squeaksource: go to the above link,
> then try and find a *single sentence* explaining what this is about. None.
>
> Talk about documentation...

In this case, I guess you didn't click on the "wiki" tab to see the
reference to the already-published documentation..?

I really don't get it.  You said you don't like "Squeaksource" because
some human didn't put more information into it.  Hell, Squeaksource
gives humans an entire wiki tab to enter documentation, so isn't your
criticism misplaced?

It's the same gripe I have when folks criticize Wiki technology as not
being effective because it is "out of date."  That's not the Wiki
being ineffective, that's people being ineffective..  Wiki tries
better than most any other "doc" solution for the documentation to
remain "up to date" by providing community empowerment.  Is the wiki
supposed to also solve the problem of human laziness?

Andreas even said updating the wiki doesn't have any community
visibility.  But wait, any or all pages could send an e-mail to
squeak-dev whenever they're updated and that tech has been there for
over a decade.  How could *Andreas* forget that?

Like I said, I don't get it..




>
>
> Stef
>
>
>
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1)

Andreas.Raab
On 4/22/2010 10:18 PM, Chris Muller wrote:

>> Very good example of what I dislike in Squeaksource: go to the above link,
>> then try and find a *single sentence* explaining what this is about. None.
>>
>> Talk about documentation...
>
> In this case, I guess you didn't click on the "wiki" tab to see the
> reference to the already-published documentation..?
>
> I really don't get it.  You said you don't like "Squeaksource" because
> some human didn't put more information into it.  Hell, Squeaksource
> gives humans an entire wiki tab to enter documentation, so isn't your
> criticism misplaced?

No, the Squeaksource wiki is completely useless. You cannot link to it,
you cannot index it, it might as well not exist. Instead of pointing you
to, e.g., http://squeaksource.com/ToolBuilder/wiki?page=Mumble I need to
tell you: Go to http://squeaksource.com/ToolBuilder.html. Then click on
the Wiki button. On the page find the link to "bla". Click on the link.
This gets you to the "bla" page. On that page find the link to "foo".
Click on that link. Then find the link to "mumble". On that page you can
the information you're looking for. Oh and Google? What's a Google?

Cheers,
   - Andreas

> It's the same gripe I have when folks criticize Wiki technology as not
> being effective because it is "out of date."  That's not the Wiki
> being ineffective, that's people being ineffective..  Wiki tries
> better than most any other "doc" solution for the documentation to
> remain "up to date" by providing community empowerment.  Is the wiki
> supposed to also solve the problem of human laziness?
>
> Andreas even said updating the wiki doesn't have any community
> visibility.  But wait, any or all pages could send an e-mail to
> squeak-dev whenever they're updated and that tech has been there for
> over a decade.  How could *Andreas* forget that?
>
> Like I said, I don't get it..
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1)

Stéphane Rollandin
In reply to this post by Chris Muller-3
Le 23/04/2010 07:18, Chris Muller a écrit :
>> Very good example of what I dislike in Squeaksource: go to the above link,
>> then try and find a *single sentence* explaining what this is about. None.
>>
>> Talk about documentation...
>
> In this case, I guess you didn't click on the "wiki" tab to see the
> reference to the already-published documentation..?

Right, I missed this one (not even a link btw, only a raw address)

> I really don't get it.  You said you don't like "Squeaksource" because
> some human didn't put more information into it.  Hell, Squeaksource
> gives humans an entire wiki tab to enter documentation, so isn't your
> criticism misplaced?

Listen, either you accept my feedback, or you don't. Both ways are fine.
What is not fine is trying to have me feel like I'm the idiot that
should be happy but isn't for some obscure reasons.

In Squeaksource, I can't find my way, that's all there is to it. I can't
find which packages do what, it looks to me like a robotic interface
made for and by robots. I'm glad that humans at times put some info
inside this thing, but see, I didn't even notice it (and yes I went to
the wiki tab the first time also).

So, weither or not you get it, weither or not you think I'm too dumb to
use Squeaksource, here is my feedback about it: I dislike it because
it's not welcoming to human beings. That's from my experience, and since
I'm a 10-year Squeak (heavy) user, I guess I can be useful to all that I
express this; negative feedback can be useful, too.

Stef




Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1)

Göran Krampe
In reply to this post by Stéphane Rollandin
Hi!

On 04/22/2010 01:49 PM, Stéphane Rollandin wrote:
>> HttpView2 is wonderful http://www.squeaksource.com/HttpView2.html
>
> Very good example of what I dislike in Squeaksource: go to the above
> link, then try and find a *single sentence* explaining what this is
> about. None.
>
> Talk about documentation...

I actually don't recall who put HttpView2 on SS, if it was me then I
must have forgotten to write something there, my bad. BUT... HttpView2
was around long before SS and it's first home is here:

http://map.squeak.org/packagebyname/httpview2

At the time SS was considered an SCM hub and SM was the preferred place
to actually "publish" a package.

regards, Göran

bpi
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HttpView description on SqueakSource (was SMSqueakMapAdminView)

bpi
Hi guys,

I guess some of the confusion is my fault. It was me who added the link on the Wiki page after Stéphanes feedback. I just improved it even more after Göran's. It would be much better if this information were in the Project Description on the Overview page, though. But only Giovanni or Göran can do that. Göran, would you be so kind, please?

+1 to Stéphane: Your feedback was helpful. It prompted me to improve the situation somewhat. And the SqueakSource UI could/should be better.
+1 to Chris: It's not the fault of SqueakSource that there is no Project Description for HttpView2. And I like SqueakSource.
+1 to Andreas: It's indeed bad that you cannot link the Wiki page. And Google indexing could/should be much better.
+1 to Göran: It's not his fault that there is no Project Description, it's Giovanni's. ;-)

Some additional comments:
- Unlike SqueakMap the SqueakSource wiki, as tiny as it is, allows anyone to add relevant information about a project. That is great because it allows and encourages collaboration.
- IMHO, there should be first class package comments along the lines of class and method comments, i.e. version controlled in PackageInfo. This would greatly improve the Monticello browser. And SqueakSource could use them as project descriptions. (I once argued [1] that the easiest implementation of this would be a PackageInfo subclass for each package. Its class comment would be the package comment. Pre and post load code could be put there as well. You could reuse all the development tools like that.)

[1] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2005-February/088181.html

Cheers,
Bernhard
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HttpView description on SqueakSource (was SMSqueakMapAdminView)

Ralph Johnson


On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:39 AM, Bernhard Pieber <[hidden email]> wrote:
- IMHO, there should be first class package comments along the lines of class and method comments, i.e. version controlled in PackageInfo. This would greatly improve the Monticello browser. And SqueakSource could use them as project descriptions. (I once argued [1] that the easiest implementation of this would be a PackageInfo subclass for each package. Its class comment would be the package comment. Pre and post load code could be put there as well. You could reuse all the development tools like that.)

[1] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2005-February/088181.html


This seems like a good idea.  What tools would have to change to make this work, and could we make this change backwards compatible?  For example, if you move the preload and postload code to the PackageInfo subclass then you could leave forwarding code behind.  Tools wouldn't bother displaying the forwarding code if they saw the PackageInfo subclass, but would keep it so that older versions of the tools would still work.

-Ralph



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1)

Chris Muller-3
In reply to this post by Stéphane Rollandin
Stéphane, what is this?  I never levelled anything personal at you or
anyone but you seem to have gotten personal..  I think we need to
*know* the capabilities and limits of the tools that are already
currently available to us, so we don't go reinventing too many things
that may not need to be.

I completely agree with you that the Squeaksource web-ui is extremely
unfriendly.  But that isn't what you said, you said that HttpView2
project was devoid of any descriptive sentence and that's why you
didn't like SqueakSource.  Perhaps the SqueakSource UI is responsible
for that, since it *is* poorly designed and hard to use, maybe that's
why someone didn't fill it in.  I can appreciate THAT.

I also appreciated Andreas' comments about the wiki tab of
Squeaksource.  I agree!

Let's keep the discussion about our toolset and what gaps need to be
filled.  There's nothing at all personal here.

 - Chris


2010/4/23 Stéphane Rollandin <[hidden email]>:

> Le 23/04/2010 07:18, Chris Muller a écrit :
>>>
>>> Very good example of what I dislike in Squeaksource: go to the above
>>> link,
>>> then try and find a *single sentence* explaining what this is about.
>>> None.
>>>
>>> Talk about documentation...
>>
>> In this case, I guess you didn't click on the "wiki" tab to see the
>> reference to the already-published documentation..?
>
> Right, I missed this one (not even a link btw, only a raw address)
>
>> I really don't get it.  You said you don't like "Squeaksource" because
>> some human didn't put more information into it.  Hell, Squeaksource
>> gives humans an entire wiki tab to enter documentation, so isn't your
>> criticism misplaced?
>
> Listen, either you accept my feedback, or you don't. Both ways are fine.
> What is not fine is trying to have me feel like I'm the idiot that should be
> happy but isn't for some obscure reasons.
>
> In Squeaksource, I can't find my way, that's all there is to it. I can't
> find which packages do what, it looks to me like a robotic interface made
> for and by robots. I'm glad that humans at times put some info inside this
> thing, but see, I didn't even notice it (and yes I went to the wiki tab the
> first time also).
>
> So, weither or not you get it, weither or not you think I'm too dumb to use
> Squeaksource, here is my feedback about it: I dislike it because it's not
> welcoming to human beings. That's from my experience, and since I'm a
> 10-year Squeak (heavy) user, I guess I can be useful to all that I express
> this; negative feedback can be useful, too.
>
> Stef
>
>
>
>
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1)

Stéphane Rollandin
> Let's keep the discussion about our toolset and what gaps need to be
> filled.  There's nothing at all personal here.

I'm sorry if you felt offended.

cheers,

Stef



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: SMSqueakMapAdminView (was Maui 1.2 release 1)

Chris Muller-4
I just saw this, thanks.  I didn't feel offended.  I consider you and
everyone I've come to "know" in the community here my friends.  I
never want my friends to feel badly.  I know sometimes too much
passion can show through in my words, I apologize too.  - Chris


2010/4/23 Stéphane Rollandin <[hidden email]>:

>> Let's keep the discussion about our toolset and what gaps need to be
>> filled.  There's nothing at all personal here.
>
> I'm sorry if you felt offended.
>
> cheers,
>
> Stef
>
>
>