Saving a Smalltalk Project
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I received the following message:
*We started off doing a small project in conservation in South Africa that involved tracking Rhinos in a remote GPS denied environment and ended up with some impressive building blocks for a Big Data Platform for IoT. The platform includes its own GIS subsystem and parts of an Expert System. Due to the choice made by my business partner and handful of contractors the platform ended up being built in Smalltalk on Squeak VM and the Magma Object Database. We now believe we may have the beginning of a commercial platform however its notoriously difficult to find Smalltalk developers so I am in half minds to migrate to a platform which uses a more mainstream language (Java / Python) as I have been getting some strange reactions from Angel Investors / VCs and mainstream developers. ... I wanted to ask you if you have information on how big the Smalltalk community is and whether its better to migrate to Pharo from Squeak and what types of recent industrial projects youve come across that use Smalltalk? Also I wondered if you know of any active smalltalk group in Silicon Valley and what are the best forums for professional SmallTalk development.* I would very much like to save their project as a Smalltalk project. The principal issue seems to be finding enough Smalltalk developers. I don't know if they need on-site developers or if remote developers can pass muster. I strongly suspect the former. How hard would it be to find Smalltalkers willing to work in Silicon Valley, or South Africa? What is the best response to this person? Thanks. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html |
Re: Saving a Smalltalk Project
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If they are interested, we can get in touch. We are working on IoT for environmental monitoring and I’m working in Cameroon.
Regards, Envoyé de mon iPad > Le 2 mai 2018 à 19:21, horrido <[hidden email]> a écrit : > > I received the following message: > > *We started off doing a small project in conservation in South Africa that > involved tracking Rhinos in a remote GPS denied environment and ended up > with some impressive building blocks for a Big Data Platform for IoT. The > platform includes its own GIS subsystem and parts of an Expert System. > > Due to the choice made by my business partner and handful of contractors the > platform ended up being built in Smalltalk on Squeak VM and the Magma > Object Database. > > We now believe we may have the beginning of a commercial platform however > its notoriously difficult to find Smalltalk developers so I am in half minds > to migrate to a platform which uses a more mainstream language (Java / > Python) as I have been getting some strange reactions from Angel Investors / > VCs and mainstream developers. > > ... > > I wanted to ask you if you have information on how big the Smalltalk > community is and whether its better to migrate to Pharo from Squeak and what > types of recent industrial projects youve come across that use Smalltalk? > > Also I wondered if you know of any active smalltalk group in Silicon Valley > and what are the best forums for professional SmallTalk development.* > > I would very much like to save their project as a Smalltalk project. The > principal issue seems to be finding enough Smalltalk developers. I don't > know if they need on-site developers or if remote developers can pass > muster. I strongly suspect the former. > > How hard would it be to find Smalltalkers willing to work in Silicon Valley, > or South Africa? > > What is the best response to this person? Thanks. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > |
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OK, so I'm curious what hardware platforms you guys use for your "things"?
Been doing things with Particle lately. Interested to try their new mesh offering. > On May 2, 2018, at 12:30 PM, Serge Stinckwich <[hidden email]> wrote: > > If they are interested, we can get in touch. We are working on IoT for environmental monitoring and I’m working in Cameroon. > > Regards, > > Envoyé de mon iPad > >> Le 2 mai 2018 à 19:21, horrido <[hidden email]> a écrit : >> >> I received the following message: >> >> *We started off doing a small project in conservation in South Africa that >> involved tracking Rhinos in a remote GPS denied environment and ended up >> with some impressive building blocks for a Big Data Platform for IoT. The >> platform includes its own GIS subsystem and parts of an Expert System. >> >> Due to the choice made by my business partner and handful of contractors the >> platform ended up being built in Smalltalk on Squeak VM and the Magma >> Object Database. >> >> We now believe we may have the beginning of a commercial platform however >> its notoriously difficult to find Smalltalk developers so I am in half minds >> to migrate to a platform which uses a more mainstream language (Java / >> Python) as I have been getting some strange reactions from Angel Investors / >> VCs and mainstream developers. >> >> ... >> >> I wanted to ask you if you have information on how big the Smalltalk >> community is and whether its better to migrate to Pharo from Squeak and what >> types of recent industrial projects youve come across that use Smalltalk? >> >> Also I wondered if you know of any active smalltalk group in Silicon Valley >> and what are the best forums for professional SmallTalk development.* >> >> I would very much like to save their project as a Smalltalk project. The >> principal issue seems to be finding enough Smalltalk developers. I don't >> know if they need on-site developers or if remote developers can pass >> muster. I strongly suspect the former. >> >> How hard would it be to find Smalltalkers willing to work in Silicon Valley, >> or South Africa? >> >> What is the best response to this person? Thanks. >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > |
Re: Saving a Smalltalk Project
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In reply to this post by horrido
horrido wrote
> what types of recent industrial projects youve come across that use > Smalltalk? One that immediately comes to mind is Lam Research: https://pharo.org/success/LAMRC ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
Cheers,
Sean |
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In reply to this post by horrido
That is the answer I would give: Biggest Smalltalk community in Silicon valley is likely the Lam Research one (dozens of devs). On my blog post talking about Smalltalk, I have 2k views per Smalltalk community-wide audience post, so the community is at least that big. Smalltalk conferences (Smalltalks and Esug) have usually around 200 attendees. To hire Smalltalk developers, a job offer mail through esug or pharo mailing list is one of the best way to get people to apply, other solutions include giving a 10 min talk at ESUG (Europe) or Smalltalks (Argentina) conference and say loud and clear you are hiring (people may be able to move to other countries). Getting a few developers should not be that hard if you accept remote positions. Migrating from Squeak to Pharo is something to discuss with the developers you hire, things like IoT and Magma DB support might not be easy to port, so it is difficult to tell with the little information provided. Pharo's community is likely the easiest to hire new Smalltalk developers though, and you can check the Pharo consortium website for support and success stories to ease communication with your investors and partners. On Wed, May 2, 2018, 20:21 horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: I received the following message: |
Re: Saving a Smalltalk Project
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In reply to this post by tblanchard
Arduinos&Raspberry boards + Lora radio board
Envoyé de mon iPhone > Le 3 mai 2018 à 02:40, Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]> a écrit : > > OK, so I'm curious what hardware platforms you guys use for your "things"? > > Been doing things with Particle lately. Interested to try their new mesh offering. > >> On May 2, 2018, at 12:30 PM, Serge Stinckwich <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> If they are interested, we can get in touch. We are working on IoT for environmental monitoring and I’m working in Cameroon. >> >> Regards, >> >> Envoyé de mon iPad >> >>> Le 2 mai 2018 à 19:21, horrido <[hidden email]> a écrit : >>> >>> I received the following message: >>> >>> *We started off doing a small project in conservation in South Africa that >>> involved tracking Rhinos in a remote GPS denied environment and ended up >>> with some impressive building blocks for a Big Data Platform for IoT. The >>> platform includes its own GIS subsystem and parts of an Expert System. >>> >>> Due to the choice made by my business partner and handful of contractors the >>> platform ended up being built in Smalltalk on Squeak VM and the Magma >>> Object Database. >>> >>> We now believe we may have the beginning of a commercial platform however >>> its notoriously difficult to find Smalltalk developers so I am in half minds >>> to migrate to a platform which uses a more mainstream language (Java / >>> Python) as I have been getting some strange reactions from Angel Investors / >>> VCs and mainstream developers. >>> >>> ... >>> >>> I wanted to ask you if you have information on how big the Smalltalk >>> community is and whether its better to migrate to Pharo from Squeak and what >>> types of recent industrial projects youve come across that use Smalltalk? >>> >>> Also I wondered if you know of any active smalltalk group in Silicon Valley >>> and what are the best forums for professional SmallTalk development.* >>> >>> I would very much like to save their project as a Smalltalk project. The >>> principal issue seems to be finding enough Smalltalk developers. I don't >>> know if they need on-site developers or if remote developers can pass >>> muster. I strongly suspect the former. >>> >>> How hard would it be to find Smalltalkers willing to work in Silicon Valley, >>> or South Africa? >>> >>> What is the best response to this person? Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> >> > > |
Re: Saving a Smalltalk Project
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In reply to this post by horrido
horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:.
> > How hard would it be to find Smalltalkers willing to work in Silicon Valley, > or South Africa? > > What is the best response to this person? Thanks. AFAIK it is not difficult at all to find Smalltalk developers. There are lots of them here, on the other smalltalk mailing lists and on our Discord. Pharo has a larger community, but HPI each year teaches Squeak to lots (80?) of students. It should not be difficult at all to find developers willing to work in Silicon Valley as long as you’d be able to afford them. I assume they would be at least three times as expensive there as in South Africa. The Smalltalkers you’ll be able to find will most likely be either just graduated or very experienced. Stephan |
Re: Saving a Smalltalk Project
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I’m a 20 year Smalltalker in Cleveland Ohio USA that would love to work another smalltalk project. It would have to be remote as I’m unable to move due to family commitments,
Brad Selfridge 913-269-2385 > On May 4, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote: > > horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:. >> >> How hard would it be to find Smalltalkers willing to work in Silicon Valley, >> or South Africa? >> >> What is the best response to this person? Thanks. > > AFAIK it is not difficult at all to find Smalltalk developers. There are > lots of them here, on the other smalltalk mailing lists and on our Discord. > Pharo has a larger community, but HPI each year teaches Squeak to lots > (80?) of students. It should not be difficult at all to find developers > willing to work in Silicon Valley as long as you’d be able to afford them. > I assume they would be at least three times as expensive there as in South > Africa. The Smalltalkers you’ll be able to find will most likely be either > just graduated or very experienced. > > Stephan > > >
Brad Selfridge
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Precision Systems in Houston specializes in finding/placing Smalltalk developers in the U.S.
Andrew -----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 1:15 PM To: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Saving a Smalltalk Project I’m a 20 year Smalltalker in Cleveland Ohio USA that would love to work another smalltalk project. It would have to be remote as I’m unable to move due to family commitments, Brad Selfridge 913-269-2385 > On May 4, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote: > > horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:. >> >> How hard would it be to find Smalltalkers willing to work in Silicon >> Valley, or South Africa? >> >> What is the best response to this person? Thanks. > > AFAIK it is not difficult at all to find Smalltalk developers. There > are lots of them here, on the other smalltalk mailing lists and on our Discord. > Pharo has a larger community, but HPI each year teaches Squeak to lots > (80?) of students. It should not be difficult at all to find > developers willing to work in Silicon Valley as long as you’d be able to afford them. > I assume they would be at least three times as expensive there as in > South Africa. The Smalltalkers you’ll be able to find will most likely > be either just graduated or very experienced. > > Stephan > > > |
Re: Saving a Smalltalk Project
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In reply to this post by horrido
horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What is the best response to this person? Thanks. > Also, this is a project done by Chris Muller. He knows smalltalkers. https://news.squeak.org/2016/05/12/squeak-in-action/ That means the question has a political background. Why not ask him directly? Stephan |
Re: Saving a Smalltalk Project
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Administrator
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In reply to this post by horrido
horrido wrote
> I am in half minds > to migrate to a platform which uses a more mainstream language (Java / > Python) as I have been getting some strange reactions from Angel Investors > / > VCs and mainstream developers. OT: It's ironic that Smalltalkers are often accused of NIH syndrome, but the first reaction of people from less "productive" languages/systems is to rewrite a working Smalltalk app in their language of comfort… ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
Cheers,
Sean |
Re: Saving a Smalltalk Project
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Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> OT: It's ironic that Smalltalkers are often accused of NIH syndrome, but the > first reaction of people from less "productive" languages/systems is to > rewrite a working Smalltalk app in their language of comfort… Indeed. And rewriting something that also uses an OODB is going to kill productivity even more. I’ve taken a look at what would be needed to support magma on pharo a few years ago. Chris always told us he uses it professionally on squeak and has not enough capacity to keep up with changes in pharo without having a customer/maintainer for it. Twice a year or so someone asks about magma on pharo and takes a look. AFAIK there are no real obstacles to a port, but magma uses a lot of deep implementation specifics that will take an experienced smalltalker to deal with, and a lot of mailing list archeology as pharo changed a lot since magma worked on pharo last Stephan |
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Stephan Eggermont wrote: > Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: >> OT: It's ironic that Smalltalkers are often accused of NIH syndrome, but the >> first reaction of people from less "productive" languages/systems is to >> rewrite a working Smalltalk app in their language of comfort… > > Indeed. And rewriting something that also uses an OODB is going to kill > productivity even more. I’ve taken a look at what would be needed to > support magma on pharo a few years ago. Chris always told us he uses it > professionally on squeak and has not enough capacity to keep up with > changes in pharo without having a customer/maintainer for it. Twice a year > or so someone asks about magma on pharo and takes a look. AFAIK there are > no real obstacles to a port, but magma uses a lot of deep implementation > specifics that will take an experienced smalltalker to deal with, and a lot > of mailing list archeology as pharo changed a lot since magma worked on > pharo last Idealistic / naive question: is there a test suite for magma on squeak? Is it hard to port just this test suite as the first step to pharo? > Stephan > > > > > |
Re: Saving a Smalltalk Project
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Herbert Vojčík <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Idealistic / naive question: is there a test suite for magma on squeak? > Is it hard to port just this test suite as the first step to pharo? There is an extensive test suite. On the magma mailing list there have been enough discussions describing what is needed Stephan |
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In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
I'm working on a programing paradigm and IDE for the personal
programmer who wants to control his or her IoT. The size of the
target audience I have in mind is >100 million. I gave up Squeak
long ago as a platform because they obsolete my code faster than I
can write it. I have now frozen Squeak 3.10.2 and hope its runtime
will survive until I find a better foundation. My hope
is that Pharo has a stable kernel that I can build on. According to
Stephan, this is not so. Is there any plan for creating a stable
Pharo kernel that people can use for building software of lasting
value for millions of non-expert users?
--Thanks, Trygve On 05.05.2018 13:53, Stephan Eggermont
wrote:
I’ve taken a look at what would be needed to support magma on pharo a few years ago. Chris always told us he uses it professionally on squeak and has not enough capacity to keep up with changes in pharo without having a customer/maintainer for it. Twice a year or so someone asks about magma on pharo and takes a look. AFAIK there are no real obstacles to a port, but magma uses a lot of deep implementation specifics that will take an experienced smalltalker to deal with, and a lot of mailing list archeology as pharo changed a lot since magma worked on pharo last Stephan --
The
essence of object orientation is that objects collaborate
to achieve a goal. |
Re: Personal Programming onPharo
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Can you elaborate on what you consider as a kernel? There are always things moving in the pharo world. The last years the virtual machine got some iterations and it is still not fully stable. For pharo it is hard to have it stable because we feel the need that a lot of the existing parts need to be replaced to be useful in these times. Furthermore pharo is also prototyping platform for programming language features. All of these are counter-stability measures. So if you need a stable kernel from native ground up to UI pharo won‘t be that thing you are looking for the coming years (if at all). You always need to adopt to change so you need to define your required scope better in order to get an estimate. Norbert
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In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
Just out of curiosity, which object database is recommended for Pharo?
Something that is reliably up-to-date as Pharo changes. Stephan Eggermont-3 wrote > Sean P. DeNigris < > sean@ > > wrote: >> OT: It's ironic that Smalltalkers are often accused of NIH syndrome, but >> the >> first reaction of people from less "productive" languages/systems is to >> rewrite a working Smalltalk app in their language of comfort… > > Indeed. And rewriting something that also uses an OODB is going to kill > productivity even more. I’ve taken a look at what would be needed to > support magma on pharo a few years ago. Chris always told us he uses it > professionally on squeak and has not enough capacity to keep up with > changes in pharo without having a customer/maintainer for it. Twice a year > or so someone asks about magma on pharo and takes a look. AFAIK there are > no real obstacles to a port, but magma uses a lot of deep implementation > specifics that will take an experienced smalltalker to deal with, and a > lot > of mailing list archeology as pharo changed a lot since magma worked on > pharo last > > Stephan -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html |
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Just out of curiosity, why do you want an OODB?
SQLite has a plethora of tools, powerful query capabilities, can be migrated with very little pain, and can act a bit like an OODB using GLORP. I have lost too many data sets to proprietary OODBs to ever trust one again.
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I tend to agree with you. I like SQLite.
Also, MongoDB isn't bad, either. But is there no scenario where an OODB would be highly advantageous? tblanchard wrote > Just out of curiosity, why do you want an OODB? > > SQLite has a plethora of tools, powerful query capabilities, can be > migrated with very little pain, and can act a bit like an OODB using > GLORP. > > I have lost too many data sets to proprietary OODBs to ever trust one > again. > >> On May 6, 2018, at 10:00 AM, horrido < > horrido.hobbies@ > > wrote: >> >> Just out of curiosity, which object database is recommended for Pharo? >> Something that is reliably up-to-date as Pharo changes. >> >> >> Stephan Eggermont-3 wrote >>> Sean P. DeNigris < >> >>> sean@ >> >>> > wrote: >>>> OT: It's ironic that Smalltalkers are often accused of NIH syndrome, >>>> but >>>> the >>>> first reaction of people from less "productive" languages/systems is to >>>> rewrite a working Smalltalk app in their language of comfort… >>> >>> Indeed. And rewriting something that also uses an OODB is going to kill >>> productivity even more. I’ve taken a look at what would be needed to >>> support magma on pharo a few years ago. Chris always told us he uses it >>> professionally on squeak and has not enough capacity to keep up with >>> changes in pharo without having a customer/maintainer for it. Twice a >>> year >>> or so someone asks about magma on pharo and takes a look. AFAIK there >>> are >>> no real obstacles to a port, but magma uses a lot of deep implementation >>> specifics that will take an experienced smalltalker to deal with, and a >>> lot >>> of mailing list archeology as pharo changed a lot since magma worked on >>> pharo last >>> >>> Stephan >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html> -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html |
Re: Saving a Smalltalk Project
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In reply to this post by tblanchard
PostgreSQL is a totally valid alternative as well. It is a real RDBMS, cross platform, open source, with wide support. We have two network level drivers in Pharo (PostgresV2 and recently P3) and it works well under GLORP.
> On 6 May 2018, at 19:10, Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Just out of curiosity, why do you want an OODB? > > SQLite has a plethora of tools, powerful query capabilities, can be migrated with very little pain, and can act a bit like an OODB using GLORP. > > I have lost too many data sets to proprietary OODBs to ever trust one again. > >> On May 6, 2018, at 10:00 AM, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Just out of curiosity, which object database is recommended for Pharo? >> Something that is reliably up-to-date as Pharo changes. >> >> >> Stephan Eggermont-3 wrote >>> Sean P. DeNigris < >> >>> sean@ >> >>> > wrote: >>>> OT: It's ironic that Smalltalkers are often accused of NIH syndrome, but >>>> the >>>> first reaction of people from less "productive" languages/systems is to >>>> rewrite a working Smalltalk app in their language of comfort… >>> >>> Indeed. And rewriting something that also uses an OODB is going to kill >>> productivity even more. I’ve taken a look at what would be needed to >>> support magma on pharo a few years ago. Chris always told us he uses it >>> professionally on squeak and has not enough capacity to keep up with >>> changes in pharo without having a customer/maintainer for it. Twice a year >>> or so someone asks about magma on pharo and takes a look. AFAIK there are >>> no real obstacles to a port, but magma uses a lot of deep implementation >>> specifics that will take an experienced smalltalker to deal with, and a >>> lot >>> of mailing list archeology as pharo changed a lot since magma worked on >>> pharo last >>> >>> Stephan >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > |
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