Scriptaculous integration

hi all,

I worked on Scriptaculous integration in Aida/Web yesterday. You can
load the code from the SqueakSource repository:
http://mc.bioskop.fr/Aida , but remember that it is not stable yet.

If you just want to see some example, I made a demo (with source code to
show how it works):
http://nico.bioskop.fr/scriptaculous.html

Cheers!

Nico
--
Nicolas Petton
http://nico.bioskop.fr
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OMG, I understand (well, a little :D ) the code.

Neo from Matrix: "I know kung fu"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmEPXXJ4sKw

Thanks Nico ;)

El 31/03/2008, a las 22:19, Nicolas Petton escribió:

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Le lundi 31 mars 2008 à 20:54 +0200, Giuseppe Luigi Punzi Ruiz a écrit :
> OMG, I understand (well, a little :D ) the code.

I tried to keep it as simple as possible :)
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>
> It's official.  It's a contest.

to me it's a good one if we can help clarify strenghts of both frameworks...

To me Aida's one are obvious:
-REST
-In smalltalk (too :) )
-really enough for 90% of web site and apps (or even 99% or even
99,9999% depending on your background)  :)

But I know and like seaside. I just want to know better his strenghts
;) and be sure all this continuation stuff are not useless !!!  The
button flow management is an example...

Cédrick

ps: What I secretly dream is a combination of both frameworks... but
I'm a dreamer ;) Aida, for port 80 and seaside for 443 :)


>
> Hope I didn't stir things up too much over the weekend, but I got some GOOD
> answers to why I was having a hard time with Seaside.
>
>
> I told Giuseppe on Saturday, I think, that this is the new standard
> Smalltalk Web Application "Hello World":
>
> "Show me your [Multi] Counter."
:)
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Le lundi 31 mars 2008 à 15:09 -0400, Rob Rothwell a écrit :
Have fun :)

Nico
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To me this is possible, Nico showed it in a way (note I'll find nicer
to just have draggable counter that stay in position)... What you want
is configure webelement or component directly from the page. Maybe,
adding kind of halo on them could help there ;)  (only accessible in
edit mode)...  Just a thought...


The difficulty is to be generic. Prototype windows are cool but
difficult (I think) to link to actual smalltlak code (objects). It's
mainly windows with static html inside. Am I wrong ?  Nico, can you
easily put counters in prototype windows you've show lastly ?

Cédrick
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Le lundi 31 mars 2008 à 21:22 +0200, cdrick a écrit :
> >
> > It's official.  It's a contest.
>
> to me it's a good one if we can help clarify strenghts of both frameworks...
>
> To me Aida's one are obvious:
I would add:
- ajax integration (you don't even know that you use ajax),
- components (like seaside)
- MVC and observer pattern

> -REST
> -In smalltalk (too :) )
> -really enough for 90% of web site and apps (or even 99% or even
> 99,9999% depending on your background)  :)
Don't think that Aida is less powerful than Seaside. They both have
their own advantages.

Can you show me some seaside code with nice looking urls? you can't do
it easily, because of continuations.
Can you show me some seaside app I won't be able to do with aida? very
difficult, because even if both frameworks don't use the same tools,
they both have their answers to the same problems.

I worked a lot with Seaside in the past, and I assure you that you can
do (almost) the same things with both. For some apps, it will be easier
with Aida, for some others, it will be easier with Seaside.

Cheers!

Nico
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>  >
>  > To me Aida's one are obvious:
>
> I would add:
>  - ajax integration (you don't even know that you use ajax),

possible in seaside too. Look at michel bany ajax integration...

I know you use ajax, and I see a ref to 'javascript:nic()'...

>  - components (like seaside)
>  - MVC and observer pattern
>
>
>  > -REST
>  > -In smalltalk (too :) )
>  > -really enough for 90% of web site and apps (or even 99% or even
>  > 99,9999% depending on your background)  :)

I just put the obvious one wich is REST to me.

Rob (I'm sure you got it) but REST is about having nice URL without
dynamic variables inside ;)

and THIS is what attracts me to Aida. I've some friend owning a web
company. And without REST, no way to make them accept smalltalk... :(

>
> Don't think that Aida is less powerful than Seaside. They both have
>  their own advantages.

you're changing my words... ;) and so what are these advantages ? I
mean seaside one according to you over Aida ?


>
>  Can you show me some seaside code with nice looking urls? you can't do
>  it easily, because of continuations.

Personnaly, I don't care... but I agree and this is the strong
advantage of aida against seaside.

>  Can you show me some seaside app I won't be able to do with aida? very
>  difficult, because even if both frameworks don't use the same tools,
>  they both have their answers to the same problems.

Probably too tiny example, but back button with POST request is not
working properly in Aida.

http://www.squeakside.com/seaside/exxx   then hit flow and use the
second link... you can -use/abuse back button, refresh and the result
is consistent.

In your counter example:
-http://nico.bioskop.fr/counter.html

back button behavior is equivalent to repeat the action. refresh
also... so this lead to strange behavior. But, again I agree, this big
flashing POST warning should prevent everybody to do that ...

That's exactlty why I asked (no answer so far):
>  Could you imagine treating POST method as redirect as seaside do ?
>  Maybe this would remove this limit (don't know though if it's possible
>  without continuation stuff...)

Seaside treat POST with a redirect, could this be a solution to that
problem ? or you don't consider being a problem. So, you must forbid
button and use link instead (this is where html sucks :) ).


>
>  I worked a lot with Seaside in the past, and I assure you that you can
>  do (almost) the same things with both. For some apps, it will be easier
>  with Aida, for some others, it will be easier with Seaside.
>

I agree with that (all). So now that you say "almost". Can you be more
precise ? ;)

As far as people say... "we do the same" or  "we do more"... Choosing
a framework is then just not an objective decision...


----- To Rob

> > I'm a dreamer ;) Aida, for port 80 and seaside for 443 :)

> I KNOW I am missing a cultural reference there!

80 is for port 80, the usual http port whereas 443 is https port (the
secure one). I just put that because to me, "80" is REST and for 443,
we don't care...



Cédrick
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Le lundi 31 mars 2008 à 21:45 +0200, cdrick a écrit :
e := WebElement new.
self counters do: [:each |
    e addWIndowFor: each size: 50@50]

Very simple :)

Nico


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On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:01 PM, Nicolas Petton <[hidden email]> wrote:

Rob
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Le lundi 31 mars 2008 à 22:12 +0200, cdrick a écrit : miss it in Aida sometimes. The only way to have this in Aida would be to
use Ajax (not a bas solution, though).

Nico


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Hi Cedrick,

cdrick wrote:

> Probably too tiny example, but back button with POST request is not
> working properly in Aida.

Well, let me ask you back, what is a proper back button behavior in this
case? From user perspective, not Seaside one! More below.

> http://www.squeakside.com/seaside/exxx   then hit flow and use the
> second link... you can -use/abuse back button, refresh and the result
> is consistent.

This behavior is wrong from the user perspective, because it undo user
action, not return him to previous page. And user definitely doesn't
expect such undo. Consider order confirmation, than go with back button
to previous page. Should order be canceled/undoed? Of course no!

> In your counter example:
> -http://nico.bioskop.fr/counter.html
>
> back button behavior is equivalent to repeat the action. refresh
> also... so this lead to strange behavior. But, again I agree, this big
> flashing POST warning should prevent everybody to do that ...

It could be that you tried a counter when it really didn't worked well.
Try it now. Both counter and multicounter should work the same now.

Back button let you leave the counter/multicounter page, forward button
let you return to the exactly the same counters. Seems good behavior to
me and what user would expect.

Why is in this case so? Because multi-counter page has the same url all
the time so that browser hasn't anything to put into history. Seaside on
the other side change url all the time, and that's why they can achieve
that counter undo effect. Which is wrong from user perspective, as I
already said.

> Seaside treat POST with a redirect, could this be a solution to that
> problem ? or you don't consider being a problem. So, you must forbid
> button and use link instead (this is where html sucks :) ).

Aida uses redirect too, in Nicolas single counter for instance. Main
reason is to avoid that bloody POST dialog. But it is url which
determines where back button will lead you, as I already mention.

>>> I'm a dreamer ;) Aida, for port 80 and seaside for 443 :)

>> I KNOW I am missing a cultural reference there!

> 80 is for port 80, the usual http port whereas 443 is https port (the
> secure one). I just put that because to me, "80" is REST and for 443,
> we don't care...

Guys, be patient, we will extend Aida to cover that 1% of cases where
Seaside is better, and to cover it better!

Best regards
Janko


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AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
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Hi Janko ;)


here I don't agree because we're not talking about page. I'm ok with
the 'undo action'.
Moreover this is something configurable whether you track state or not.
Then there is also the possibility to isolate a flow (this one I find
cool). Once order is done, you can't go back. Or even if you copied
the previous url and then you try to load it again this will result in
a redirect to the last stage of the flow (try with sushy shop).


>
>  > In your counter example:
>  > -http://nico.bioskop.fr/counter.html
>  >
>  > back button behavior is equivalent to repeat the action. refresh
>  > also... so this lead to strange behavior. But, again I agree, this big
>  > flashing POST warning should prevent everybody to do that ...

This is working now. No more post message... I had that yesterday and
I think this morning too.

>
>  It could be that you tried a counter when it really didn't worked well.
>  Try it now. Both counter and multicounter should work the same now.

yep, I far prefer this behavior which is consistent.

One could argue there less possibility to manage form entries (as I
told you on irc) but that's ok to me. I can cope with that.

The think is I was surpised of yesterday bahavior.

What did you change ?

>
>  Back button let you leave the counter/multicounter page, forward button
>  let you return to the exactly the same counters. Seems good behavior to
>  me and what user would expect.

It's ok I agree...

>
>  Why is in this case so? Because multi-counter page has the same url all
>  the time so that browser hasn't anything to put into history. Seaside on
>  the other side change url all the time, and that's why they can achieve
>  that counter undo effect. Which is wrong from user perspective, as I
>  already said.
>

This is exactly why continuation were made IMO. Track state... Of
course it simpler and also elegant the way Aida do it...
The point is "this is a difference". I don't want to argue if one is
better... just I don't find wrong the behavior of seaside ;-)

See you and thanks for the answer ;)

Cédrick
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