Seaside Scaling - How successful?
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I've been looking for a framework that will grow with my company's
projected online growth rate and Seaside looks very interesting. We developed a Java based web site for a beta product, but I'm not happy with the results or the amount of code/time required to make things work with Java. I'm looking for something that will have a faster implementation and also scale well as we grow. I stumbled across Seaside on Blog post and thought I'd take a look. Seaside looks like it has some very nice features and I've been spending the last couple of days doing some of the tutorials and watching several of the "Why Seaside" talks. Thanks to your community for posting those. I do have some reservations about Seaside and I'm hoping that the members of this list can point me in the right direction for the answers or have some of their own success stories. Here are my concerns at this point in time: Scalability - How does one scale Seaside? I've seen GemStone/S to help with persistence and using Apache for static content. These seem very logical, but I'm still wondering what it takes in hardware to support 1K, 10K and 100K unique visitors per month to a Seaside based site. I know this will be code dependent, but I'm interested in seeing 1) if its even possible to hit in excess of 100K visitors per month and 2) what it would take from a hardware perspective to hit this number of visitors. Memory Requirements - I read in the archives, and I'm betting this is an older pre 2.8 rev memory number, it takes 2M per client for Seaside. Is this still the case? Hosting - What is the best way to host Seaside if you want to use someone else's hardware? Has anyone implemented an AMI on AWS for hosting? Success Stories - Any success stories where a site is servicing in excess of 5K visitors per day using Seaside? If so, what did it take to get here and would you do it again? How are you handling persistence? What is your limit based on current hardware/software? Learn Seaside - What is the best way to learn Seaside for a non- Smalltalk developer? Any information you could provide that would help me make this decision would be much appreciated. Thanks for your time. Rich _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside Scaling - How successful?
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On Aug 18, 2008, at 2:33 PM, Rich wrote: > Success Stories - Any success stories where a site is servicing in > excess of 5K visitors per day using Seaside? If so, what did it > take to get here and would you do it again? How are you handling > persistence? What is your limit based on current hardware/software? 5k visitors per day doing what? 5k visitors for an e-commerce site with limited interaction is different than 5k of visitors to a social network site with longer interactions times. Perhaps, concurrent users would be a better gauge to ask about... Dale as some interesting numbers in terms of Glass scaling in a recent blog post: http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/making-_k-and-_s-optional-a-seaside-heresy/ _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: Seaside Scaling - How successful?
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In reply to this post by Rich-49
> Scalability - How does one scale Seaside? I've seen GemStone/S to
> help with persistence and using Apache for static content. > These seem > very logical, but I'm still wondering what it takes in hardware to > support 1K, 10K and 100K unique visitors per month to a > Seaside based > site. I know this will be code dependent, but I'm interested in > seeing 1) if its even possible to hit in excess of 100K visitors per > month and 2) what it would take from a hardware perspective to hit > this number of visitors. > > Success Stories - Any success stories where a site is servicing in > excess of 5K visitors per day using Seaside? If so, what did > it take > to get here and would you do it again? How are you handling > persistence? What is your limit based on current hardware/software? http://onsmalltalk.com/programming/smalltalk/seaside/scaling-seaside-more-ad vanced-load-balancing-and-publishing/ I'm doing around 80,000 uniques, just over a quarter million page views, a month on this config on a single dual xeon dell 1850. I've got two 1850's for the site but one server handles the load easily enough I've kept the second offline. With 4 gigs of ram I still have just over a gig free and the typical image runs at about 70 meg or so. Rarely see the CPU spike above 40% and it's mostly under 10% on average. The site accesses all its persistent data through web services using the Squeak SOAP client. Ramon Leon http://onsmalltalk.com _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Rich-49
Hi Rich,
Welcome to Seaside. If you are looking at 100K sessions per month, that seems to be 2-3 per minute (am I doing the math properly?). I believe that most Seaside implementations would easily handle 2-3 pages per second! You mentioned GemStone/S (disclaimer: I work for GemStone), and we have done some performance testing using various platforms. See Dale's blog at http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/scaling-seaside-with-gemstones/ for an analysis done many months ago. The general message is that with a single CPU and 1 GB of RAM for a cache, you can look at a steady state of a million pages per day (~12/second). If you need to scale further, then you need to pay for hardware and software licenses. Getting to 100 pages per second is quite doable; getting to 1000 pages per second would require some higher-end hardware. Dale has set his sites on numbers much beyond that (10K to 100K per second), but it seems it will require something other than an out-of-the-box setup. As to hosting, I recently set up a personal site on SliceHost.com. I am paying $20/month for a 256MB slice and running GemStone/S on the server. A very unscientific experiment was to open to the counter application and click it as fast as I could. I got the counter to over 90 in 60 seconds, so was serving at least 1-1/2 pages per second (and that is from a single client over the web; multiple clients should be able to overlap without much overhead). As to training, I will be teaching a couple tutorials at OOPSLA in Nashville in October, one is on web technologies in general and the other is on Seaside in particular. That would be one opportunity to get some education. James On Aug 18, 2008, at 11:33 AM, Rich wrote: > I've been looking for a framework that will grow with my company's > projected online growth rate and Seaside looks very interesting. We > developed a Java based web site for a beta product, but I'm not > happy with the results or the amount of code/time required to make > things work with Java. I'm looking for something that will have a > faster implementation and also scale well as we grow. I stumbled > across Seaside on Blog post and thought I'd take a look. Seaside > looks like it has some very nice features and I've been spending the > last couple of days doing some of the tutorials and watching several > of the "Why Seaside" talks. Thanks to your community for posting > those. > > I do have some reservations about Seaside and I'm hoping that the > members of this list can point me in the right direction for the > answers or have some of their own success stories. Here are my > concerns at this point in time: > > Scalability - How does one scale Seaside? I've seen GemStone/S to > help with persistence and using Apache for static content. These > seem very logical, but I'm still wondering what it takes in hardware > to support 1K, 10K and 100K unique visitors per month to a Seaside > based site. I know this will be code dependent, but I'm interested > in seeing 1) if its even possible to hit in excess of 100K visitors > per month and 2) what it would take from a hardware perspective to > hit this number of visitors. > > Memory Requirements - I read in the archives, and I'm betting this > is an older pre 2.8 rev memory number, it takes 2M per client for > Seaside. Is this still the case? > > Hosting - What is the best way to host Seaside if you want to use > someone else's hardware? Has anyone implemented an AMI on AWS for > hosting? > > Success Stories - Any success stories where a site is servicing in > excess of 5K visitors per day using Seaside? If so, what did it > take to get here and would you do it again? How are you handling > persistence? What is your limit based on current hardware/software? > > Learn Seaside - What is the best way to learn Seaside for a non- > Smalltalk developer? > > > Any information you could provide that would help me make this > decision would be much appreciated. > > Thanks for your time. > > Rich > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: Seaside Scaling - How successful?
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In reply to this post by Rich-49
Hi Rich,
Good to know Seaside is being evaluated for more high load projects. We have no numbers because we are still in development of the app but you may found interesting the architecture. We have made the app so it can run in worker images without points of contention. Was made that way to allow smooth scaling from 1 to N hosts tailoring our load demand. cheers, Sebastian Sastre > -----Mensaje original----- > De: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre de Rich > Enviado el: Lunes, 18 de Agosto de 2008 15:33 > Para: [hidden email] > Asunto: [Seaside] Seaside Scaling - How successful? > > I've been looking for a framework that will grow with my company's > projected online growth rate and Seaside looks very interesting. We > developed a Java based web site for a beta product, but I'm > not happy > with the results or the amount of code/time required to make things > work with Java. I'm looking for something that will have a faster > implementation and also scale well as we grow. I stumbled across > Seaside on Blog post and thought I'd take a look. Seaside > looks like > it has some very nice features and I've been spending the > last couple > of days doing some of the tutorials and watching several of the "Why > Seaside" talks. Thanks to your community for posting those. > > I do have some reservations about Seaside and I'm hoping that the > members of this list can point me in the right direction for the > answers or have some of their own success stories. Here are my > concerns at this point in time: > > Scalability - How does one scale Seaside? I've seen GemStone/S to > help with persistence and using Apache for static content. > These seem > very logical, but I'm still wondering what it takes in hardware to > support 1K, 10K and 100K unique visitors per month to a > Seaside based > site. I know this will be code dependent, but I'm interested in > seeing 1) if its even possible to hit in excess of 100K visitors per > month and 2) what it would take from a hardware perspective to hit > this number of visitors. > > Memory Requirements - I read in the archives, and I'm betting > this is > an older pre 2.8 rev memory number, it takes 2M per client for > Seaside. Is this still the case? > > Hosting - What is the best way to host Seaside if you want to use > someone else's hardware? Has anyone implemented an AMI on AWS for > hosting? > > Success Stories - Any success stories where a site is servicing in > excess of 5K visitors per day using Seaside? If so, what did > it take > to get here and would you do it again? How are you handling > persistence? What is your limit based on current hardware/software? > > Learn Seaside - What is the best way to learn Seaside for a non- > Smalltalk developer? > > > Any information you could provide that would help me make this > decision would be much appreciated. > > Thanks for your time. > > Rich > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by jgfoster
"James Foster" <[hidden email]> wrote
> As to hosting, I recently set up a personal site on SliceHost.com. I am > paying $20/month for a 256MB slice and running GemStone/S on the server. Any chance you can post a basic summary of what you actually had to do e.g. upload xyz, configure abc, go. Thanks - Sophie _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: Re: Seaside Scaling - How successful?
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> Any chance you can post a basic summary of what you actually > had to do e.g. > upload xyz, configure abc, go. > > Thanks - Sophie Slicehost rocks, they're very much aimed at developers. You create a slice in the admin tool which lets you choose between various bare bones Linux distros. Once created it gives you an IP address which you then ssh into and as root and do whatever you please. Basically that'll be securing the box with a firewall, banning root from ssh, creating admin user that you can ssh in as, enable him in sudoers, install and setup Apache and Squeak, and you're done. They have many great tutorials that walk you step by step through all of this, except of course installing Squeak. On a 256 meg slice you'll have about 200 meg ram available for Squeak, so grab a mini image from the Seaside site, it has a much smaller memory footprint than a full image. With all my code loaded a mini image take up about 20 megs of ram, less than half the size of a full Squeak image with same code loaded. Ramon Leon http://onsmalltalk.com _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by jgfoster
Hi James, Sean and Ramon!
Thanks for all of your info, links and stories. I was just scratching the surface of this last week and you've pointed me in a direction to find out more. Based on the little that I've seen it looks like Seaside is very capable of scaling. Now its time to read some more and come back with more questions. Thanks again for responding to this request. I can definitely say I have not received the same responsiveness from other frameworks! Rich On Aug 18, 2008, at 12:55 PM, James Foster wrote: > Hi Rich, > > Welcome to Seaside. > > If you are looking at 100K sessions per month, that seems to be 2-3 > per minute (am I doing the math properly?). I believe that most > Seaside implementations would easily handle 2-3 pages per second! > > You mentioned GemStone/S (disclaimer: I work for GemStone), and we > have done some performance testing using various platforms. See > Dale's blog at http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/scaling-seaside-with-gemstones/ > for an analysis done many months ago. The general message is that > with a single CPU and 1 GB of RAM for a cache, you can look at a > steady state of a million pages per day (~12/second). If you need to > scale further, then you need to pay for hardware and software > licenses. Getting to 100 pages per second is quite doable; getting > to 1000 pages per second would require some higher-end hardware. > Dale has set his sites on numbers much beyond that (10K to 100K per > second), but it seems it will require something other than an out-of- > the-box setup. > > As to hosting, I recently set up a personal site on SliceHost.com. I > am paying $20/month for a 256MB slice and running GemStone/S on the > server. A very unscientific experiment was to open to the counter > application and click it as fast as I could. I got the counter to > over 90 in 60 seconds, so was serving at least 1-1/2 pages per > second (and that is from a single client over the web; multiple > clients should be able to overlap without much overhead). > > As to training, I will be teaching a couple tutorials at OOPSLA in > Nashville in October, one is on web technologies in general and the > other is on Seaside in particular. That would be one opportunity to > get some education. > > James > > > On Aug 18, 2008, at 11:33 AM, Rich wrote: > >> I've been looking for a framework that will grow with my company's >> projected online growth rate and Seaside looks very interesting. >> We developed a Java based web site for a beta product, but I'm not >> happy with the results or the amount of code/time required to make >> things work with Java. I'm looking for something that will have a >> faster implementation and also scale well as we grow. I stumbled >> across Seaside on Blog post and thought I'd take a look. Seaside >> looks like it has some very nice features and I've been spending >> the last couple of days doing some of the tutorials and watching >> several of the "Why Seaside" talks. Thanks to your community for >> posting those. >> >> I do have some reservations about Seaside and I'm hoping that the >> members of this list can point me in the right direction for the >> answers or have some of their own success stories. Here are my >> concerns at this point in time: >> >> Scalability - How does one scale Seaside? I've seen GemStone/S to >> help with persistence and using Apache for static content. These >> seem very logical, but I'm still wondering what it takes in >> hardware to support 1K, 10K and 100K unique visitors per month to a >> Seaside based site. I know this will be code dependent, but I'm >> interested in seeing 1) if its even possible to hit in excess of >> 100K visitors per month and 2) what it would take from a hardware >> perspective to hit this number of visitors. >> >> Memory Requirements - I read in the archives, and I'm betting this >> is an older pre 2.8 rev memory number, it takes 2M per client for >> Seaside. Is this still the case? >> >> Hosting - What is the best way to host Seaside if you want to use >> someone else's hardware? Has anyone implemented an AMI on AWS for >> hosting? >> >> Success Stories - Any success stories where a site is servicing in >> excess of 5K visitors per day using Seaside? If so, what did it >> take to get here and would you do it again? How are you handling >> persistence? What is your limit based on current hardware/software? >> >> Learn Seaside - What is the best way to learn Seaside for a non- >> Smalltalk developer? >> >> >> Any information you could provide that would help me make this >> decision would be much appreciated. >> >> Thanks for your time. >> >> Rich >> >> _______________________________________________ >> seaside mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >> > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside Scaling - How successful?
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In reply to this post by Rich-49
Hi Rich
Our experience with getting good programmers to Smalltalk is that you can get up to speed from one week to three. Now if you can afford to pair program with somebody then this is a really a huge boost factor. The language is simple but knowing the tricks of the IDE is not easy from books. > Learn Seaside - What is the best way to learn Seaside for a non- > Smalltalk developer? Stef _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside Scaling - How successful?
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In reply to this post by Rich-49
Hi Rich!
> > Learn Seaside - What is the best way to learn Seaside for a > non-Smalltalk developer? May be you won't start with seaside when you do your first steps in Smalltalk. I started using the Squeak IDE using the croquet framework. There are plenty tutorials how to build your first smalltalk app. have a look at http://www.dmu.com/crb/crb0.html. I think that's one of the best ways to do first steps in Squeak getting an impression how to use workspaces, browsers, maintaining the image,.... There are other tutorials too, but dmu.com offers a ver compressed way to get an impression... Switching to the actual TodoApp tutorial will be very very easy! Sebastian ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside Scaling - How successful?
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Deploying Seaside - Easy, if someone tells you what to do ;)
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 2:42 AM, Sebastian Heidbrink <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi Rich! -- David Zmick /dz0004455\ http://dz0004455.googlepages.com http://dz0004455.blogspot.com _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Ramon Leon-5
Thanks Ramon, I may give it a go soon (have to overcome my Apache fears). Is
slicehost also a good choice for production deployment? - Sophie "Ramon Leon" <[hidden email]> >> Any chance you can post a basic summary of what you actually >> had to do e.g. >> upload xyz, configure abc, go. >> >> Thanks - Sophie > > Slicehost rocks, they're very much aimed at developers. You create a > slice > in the admin tool which lets you choose between various bare bones Linux > distros. Once created it gives you an IP address which you then ssh into > and as root and do whatever you please. Basically that'll be securing the > box with a firewall, banning root from ssh, creating admin user that you > can > ssh in as, enable him in sudoers, install and setup Apache and Squeak, and > you're done. They have many great tutorials that walk you step by step > through all of this, except of course installing Squeak. > > On a 256 meg slice you'll have about 200 meg ram available for Squeak, so > grab a mini image from the Seaside site, it has a much smaller memory > footprint than a full image. With all my code loaded a mini image take up > about 20 megs of ram, less than half the size of a full Squeak image with > same code loaded. > > Ramon Leon > http://onsmalltalk.com _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: Re: Re: Seaside Scaling - How successful?
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> Thanks Ramon, I may give it a go soon (have to overcome my > Apache fears). Is > slicehost also a good choice for production deployment? > > - Sophie I would think so, the Hacker News folks seem to love it which is why I tried it out, so far it rocks. Ramon Leon http://onsmalltalk.com _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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Is possible to do it also with nginx? I mean, with ebb (ruby) I did
something similar but is it worth of it? El 21/08/2008, a las 1:38, Ramon Leon escribió: >> >> Thanks Ramon, I may give it a go soon (have to overcome my >> Apache fears). Is >> slicehost also a good choice for production deployment? >> >> - Sophie > > I would think so, the Hacker News folks seem to love it which is why > I tried > it out, so far it rocks. > > Ramon Leon > http://onsmalltalk.com > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: Re: Re: Seaside Scaling - How successful?
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf > Of Marcelino Llano Villa > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:43 PM > To: Seaside - general discussion > Subject: Re: [Seaside] Re: Re: Seaside Scaling - How successful? > > Is possible to do it also with nginx? I mean, with ebb (ruby) I did > something similar > but is it worth of it? > > El 21/08/2008, a las 1:38, Ramon Leon escribió: Don't know, haven't tried it, don't plan to. Ramon Leon http://onsmalltalk.com _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Re: Re: Seaside Scaling - How successful?
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In reply to this post by marze
On Aug 20, 2008, at 7:43 PM, Marcelino Llano Villa wrote: > Is possible to do it also with nginx? I mean, with ebb (ruby) I did > something similar > but is it worth of it? do what exactly? _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Re: Re: Seaside Scaling - How successful?
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I think apache is the way to go, it isn't too hard, once you get it
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Sean Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
-- David Zmick /dz0004455\ http://dz0004455.googlepages.com http://dz0004455.blogspot.com _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by SeanTAllen
use nginx instead apache, i think is faster to serve static files, didn't?
is this technique called proxy pass? sorry kinda newbie here I believe this is possible, but is there a benefit on this with squeak? here is my ebb (a ruby server for dynamic content) nginx conf file user www-data www-data; worker_processes 5; error_log logs/error.log; pid logs/nginx.pid; events { worker_connections 1024; } http { include mime.types; default_type application/octet-stream; log_format main '$remote_addr - $remote_user [$time_local] $status ' '"$request" $body_bytes_sent "$http_referer" ' '"$http_user_agent" "http_x_forwarded_for"'; access_log logs/access.log main; sendfile on; tcp_nopush on; tcp_nodelay on; gzip on; upstream ebb { server 127.0.0.1:4000; server 127.0.0.1:4001; server 127.0.0.1:4002; } server { listen 80; server_name www.site.com site.com; client_max_body_size 50M; access_log /srv/www/site.com/shared/log/access.log; error_log /srv/www/site.com/shared/log/error.log; root /srv/www/site.com/current/public; index index.html index.htm; location / { proxy_set_header X-Real-IP $remote_addr; proxy_set_header X-Forwarded_for $proxy_add_x_forwarded_for; proxy_set_header Host $http_host; proxy_redirect false; proxy_max_temp_file_size 0; if (-f $request_filename) { break; } if (-f $request_filename/index.html) { rewrite (.*) $1/index.html break; } if (-f $request_filename.html) { rewrite (.*) $1.html break; } if (!-f $request_filename) { proxy_pass http://ebb; break; } } error_page 500 502 503 504 /500.html; location = /500.html { root /srv/www/exceptions; } } } El 21/08/2008, a las 4:19, Sean Allen escribió: do what exactly? _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Re: Re: Seaside Scaling - How successful?
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for the apache setups i've seen documented, the nginx conf file below should work fine. unless you setup that rails etc style caching, this:
wouldn't be needed. -- fyi there is a bug in that conf file. you have:
set as directory indexes BUT...
only checks for index.html so IF you had a directory index of index.htm, it would never get served. unless directly accessed. On Aug 21, 2008, at 7:41 AM, Marcelino Llano Villa wrote:
_______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Re: Re: Seaside Scaling - How successful?
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.htacces in my apache root directory:
RewriteRule ^seaside/files.* - [L] RewriteRule ^(.*)$ http://localhost:8080/seaside/pier/$1 [P,L] not the recommended way, using a virtualhost, but, it works! On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 7:49 AM, Sean Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
-- David Zmick /dz0004455\ http://dz0004455.googlepages.com http://dz0004455.blogspot.com _______________________________________________ seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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