[Seaside-dev] beta?

Just a heads up that we're thinking of rolling a beta real soon. At
some level I'd like a little more polish on it, but realistically
development has seriously slowed down, very few bugs are being
reported, and people seem to be adopting and beginning to deploy and
distribute the alpha. I'm just going to try to get our query and post
fields sorted out and then that's it for my list.

I'm going to number Grease as 1.0a at the same time as we go beta on
Seaside in order to have a named version that we can refer to.
Removing stuff from Grease will be problematic once it's out of alpha,
so I don't want to rush it along too quickly.

Last chance to shout if there are any platform issues or anything that
need resolving before beta (ideally with a commitment to fix it ASAP
:) ).

Julian
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Julian,

When I created the Metacello configuration for Grease, I took the liberty of using '1.0-alpha1' as the original version number. Grease is up to '1.0-alpha5.1' in Metacello. It appears that you are using a different naming scheme than that used by Seaside.

Seaside 3.0 has made it to '3.0.0-alpha5.8' and Seaside 2.8 s up to '2.8.4.4', but I don't see any danger in version naming collisions for Seaside.

The Metacello version numbers should coincide with the actual product versions, so pardon me for going ahead and using up some of the valuable version namespace for Grease.

At this juncture it wouldn't cause too much disturbance to change the Grease version numbers to match your vision (technically published versions aren't supposed to change), but I'd need to know the names that you'd like to use for the already released versions of Grease, so I can change the Grease configuration and all of the other configuration that reference Grease.

Dale

----- "Julian Fitzell" <[hidden email]> wrote:

| Just a heads up that we're thinking of rolling a beta real soon. At
| some level I'd like a little more polish on it, but realistically
| development has seriously slowed down, very few bugs are being
| reported, and people seem to be adopting and beginning to deploy and
| distribute the alpha. I'm just going to try to get our query and post
| fields sorted out and then that's it for my list.
|
| I'm going to number Grease as 1.0a at the same time as we go beta on
| Seaside in order to have a named version that we can refer to.
| Removing stuff from Grease will be problematic once it's out of
| alpha,
| so I don't want to rush it along too quickly.
|
| Last chance to shout if there are any platform issues or anything
| that
| need resolving before beta (ideally with a commitment to fix it ASAP
| :) ).
|
| Julian
| _______________________________________________
| seaside-dev mailing list
| [hidden email]
| http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/seaside-dev
_______________________________________________
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Mm... I think there's no point changing everything. Since luckily you
went with 1.0 anyway, why don't we just call this 1.0a6 then? Does
that solve things?

Julian

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Dale Henrichs
<[hidden email]> wrote: _______________________________________________
seaside-dev mailing list
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Mmmmm, ('1.0-a6' asMetacelloVersionNumber) sorts less than ('1.0-alpha5'asMetacelloVersionNumber). since 'a6' sorts less than 'alpha5'.

I could tweak the sorting algorithm for version numbers, but I was hoping that the string components in the version number would just sort as strings.

If you are set on using 'a' instead of 'alpha' I'd almost rather bite the bullet now and change the existing references...

BTW, the '-' is significantly part of the metacello version numbers. I haven't had any push back, yet, but I'm willing to wiggle aroun in the version component parsing space. Currently:

  1.0a6 parses into { 1.'0a6'. }
  1.0-a6 parses into { 1. 0. 'a6' }
  1.0-a.6 parses into {1. 0. 'a'. 6. }
  1.0-a.6 parses into {1. 0. 'a'. 6. }
  1.0-6 parses into { 1. 0. '6'. }

an alternate scheme could go with (A):

  1.0a6 parses into  { 1. 0. 'a6'. }
  1.0-a6 parses into { 1. 0. 'a6'. }
  1.0-a.6 parses into {1. 0. 'a'. 6. }
  1.0-6 parses into { 1. 0. '6'. }

or even (B):

  1.0a6 parses into  { 1. 0. 'a'. 6. }
  1.0-a6 parses into { 1. 0. 'a'. 6. }
  1.0-a.6 parses into {1. 0. 'a'. 6. }
  1.0-6 parses into { 1. 0. 6. }

This doesn't help with 'alpha' part, but if you are strongly opposed to 1.0-a.6 then now would be the time to speak up, because I'm pretty sure that I can get away with supporting either of A or B ...

Now that it comes up, I'm probably in favor of B...

Dale


----- "Julian Fitzell" <[hidden email]> wrote:

| Mm... I think there's no point changing everything. Since luckily you
| went with 1.0 anyway, why don't we just call this 1.0a6 then? Does
| that solve things?
|
| Julian
|
| On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Dale Henrichs
| <[hidden email]> wrote:
| > Julian,
| >
| > When I created the Metacello configuration for Grease, I took the
| liberty of using '1.0-alpha1' as the original version number. Grease
| is up to '1.0-alpha5.1' in Metacello. It appears that you are using a
| different naming scheme than that used by Seaside.
| >
| > Seaside 3.0 has made it to '3.0.0-alpha5.8' and Seaside 2.8 s up to
| '2.8.4.4', but I don't see any danger in version naming collisions for
| Seaside.
| >
| > The Metacello version numbers should coincide with the actual
| product versions, so pardon me for going ahead and using up some of
| the valuable version namespace for Grease.
| >
| > At this juncture it wouldn't cause too much disturbance to change
| the Grease version numbers to match your vision (technically published
| versions aren't supposed to change), but I'd need to know the names
| that you'd like to use for the already released versions of Grease, so
| I can change the Grease configuration and all of the other
| configuration that reference Grease.
| >
| > Dale
| >
| > ----- "Julian Fitzell" <[hidden email]> wrote:
| >
| > | Just a heads up that we're thinking of rolling a beta real soon.
| At
| > | some level I'd like a little more polish on it, but realistically
| > | development has seriously slowed down, very few bugs are being
| > | reported, and people seem to be adopting and beginning to deploy
| and
| > | distribute the alpha. I'm just going to try to get our query and
| post
| > | fields sorted out and then that's it for my list.
| > |
| > | I'm going to number Grease as 1.0a at the same time as we go beta
| on
| > | Seaside in order to have a named version that we can refer to.
| > | Removing stuff from Grease will be problematic once it's out of
| > | alpha,
| > | so I don't want to rush it along too quickly.
| > |
| > | Last chance to shout if there are any platform issues or anything
| > | that
| > | need resolving before beta (ideally with a commitment to fix it
| ASAP
| > | :) ).
| > |
| > | Julian
| > | _______________________________________________
| > | seaside-dev mailing list
| > | [hidden email]
| > | http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/seaside-dev
| > _______________________________________________
| > seaside-dev mailing list
| > [hidden email]
| > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/seaside-dev
| >
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[hidden email]
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Well, to be honest I was trying to avoid all of this string sorting by
having a first-class Version. :)

Actually, now that I say that, I realize I hadn't mentioned that so
you may not have noticed. Can you just convert the GRVersion to
whatever string you want?

Julian

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Dale Henrichs
<[hidden email]> wrote: _______________________________________________
seaside-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
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Metacello has first-class versions as well, but parsing strings is part of the game. Humans will be writing and reading the strings:

  Loader load: 'ConfigurationOfSeaside' version: '2.8.4'

So Metacello has parsing rules for versions to convert back and forth between versions and strings.

I know that with Monticello, there never was a concrete (read enforced) definition for the file name. Gofer has imposed a parsing scheme on Monticello file names that works pretty well for calculating the latest file, but falls down when the creators of a Monticello filename use a convention that is at odds with Gofer's scheme ...

I want to avoid that problem with Metacello, so this early in the game I'm willing to change my parsing scheme.

GRVersion can certainly be converted to MetacelloVersionNumber, but I am worried about the print string format (call me anal).

If you are going to write a message that says load 1.0a6 of Grease, then I would hope that Metacello would load '1.0a6' of Grease and that the sort order of versions will work (there is a load latest option in Metacello)....Since I've already gone and created a version called 1.0alpha51 I can't imagine a parser/sorter that would sort 1.0a6 later than 1.0alpha5.1. If you can think of one I am interested.

I'm already pretty well convinced that I was overly optimistic that something like 1.0-a6 would fly as a version naming scheme. But I am willing to change and from what I can tell, you'd like to use the name 1.0a6 instead of 1.0alpha6, so I think I will be changing the ConfigurationOfGrease configs ... better now, than later.

I'll also be bringing up the version scheme on the Metacello mailing list to get more feedback ...

Dale
----- "Julian Fitzell" <[hidden email]> wrote:

| Well, to be honest I was trying to avoid all of this string sorting
| by
| having a first-class Version. :)
|
| Actually, now that I say that, I realize I hadn't mentioned that so
| you may not have noticed. Can you just convert the GRVersion to
| whatever string you want?
|
| Julian
|
| On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Dale Henrichs
| <[hidden email]> wrote:
| > Mmmmm, ('1.0-a6' asMetacelloVersionNumber) sorts less than
| ('1.0-alpha5'asMetacelloVersionNumber). since 'a6' sorts less than
| 'alpha5'.
| >
| > I could tweak the sorting algorithm for version numbers, but I was
| hoping that the string components in the version number would just
| sort as strings.
| >
| > If you are set on using 'a' instead of 'alpha' I'd almost rather
| bite the bullet now and change the existing references...
| >
| > BTW, the '-' is significantly part of the metacello version numbers.
| I haven't had any push back, yet, but I'm willing to wiggle aroun in
| the version component parsing space. Currently:
| >
| >  1.0a6 parses into { 1.'0a6'. }
| >  1.0-a6 parses into { 1. 0. 'a6' }
| >  1.0-a.6 parses into {1. 0. 'a'. 6. }
| >  1.0-a.6 parses into {1. 0. 'a'. 6. }
| >  1.0-6 parses into { 1. 0. '6'. }
| >
| > an alternate scheme could go with (A):
| >
| >  1.0a6 parses into  { 1. 0. 'a6'. }
| >  1.0-a6 parses into { 1. 0. 'a6'. }
| >  1.0-a.6 parses into {1. 0. 'a'. 6. }
| >  1.0-6 parses into { 1. 0. '6'. }
| >
| > or even (B):
| >
| >  1.0a6 parses into  { 1. 0. 'a'. 6. }
| >  1.0-a6 parses into { 1. 0. 'a'. 6. }
| >  1.0-a.6 parses into {1. 0. 'a'. 6. }
| >  1.0-6 parses into { 1. 0. 6. }
| >
| > This doesn't help with 'alpha' part, but if you are strongly opposed
| to 1.0-a.6 then now would be the time to speak up, because I'm pretty
| sure that I can get away with supporting either of A or B ...
| >
| > Now that it comes up, I'm probably in favor of B...
| >
| > Dale
| >
| >
| > ----- "Julian Fitzell" <[hidden email]> wrote:
| >
| > | Mm... I think there's no point changing everything. Since luckily
| you
| > | went with 1.0 anyway, why don't we just call this 1.0a6 then?
| Does
| > | that solve things?
| > |
| > | Julian
| > |
| > | On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Dale Henrichs
| > | <[hidden email]> wrote:
| > | > Julian,
| > | >
| > | > When I created the Metacello configuration for Grease, I took
| the
| > | liberty of using '1.0-alpha1' as the original version number.
| Grease
| > | is up to '1.0-alpha5.1' in Metacello. It appears that you are
| using a
| > | different naming scheme than that used by Seaside.
| > | >
| > | > Seaside 3.0 has made it to '3.0.0-alpha5.8' and Seaside 2.8 s up
| to
| > | '2.8.4.4', but I don't see any danger in version naming collisions
| for
| > | Seaside.
| > | >
| > | > The Metacello version numbers should coincide with the actual
| > | product versions, so pardon me for going ahead and using up some
| of
| > | the valuable version namespace for Grease.
| > | >
| > | > At this juncture it wouldn't cause too much disturbance to
| change
| > | the Grease version numbers to match your vision (technically
| published
| > | versions aren't supposed to change), but I'd need to know the
| names
| > | that you'd like to use for the already released versions of
| Grease, so
| > | I can change the Grease configuration and all of the other
| > | configuration that reference Grease.
| > | >
| > | > Dale
| > | >
| > | > ----- "Julian Fitzell" <[hidden email]> wrote:
| > | >
| > | > | Just a heads up that we're thinking of rolling a beta real
| soon.
| > | At
| > | > | some level I'd like a little more polish on it, but
| realistically
| > | > | development has seriously slowed down, very few bugs are
| being
| > | > | reported, and people seem to be adopting and beginning to
| deploy
| > | and
| > | > | distribute the alpha. I'm just going to try to get our query
| and
| > | post
| > | > | fields sorted out and then that's it for my list.
| > | > |
| > | > | I'm going to number Grease as 1.0a at the same time as we go
| beta
| > | on
| > | > | Seaside in order to have a named version that we can refer
| to.
| > | > | Removing stuff from Grease will be problematic once it's out
| of
| > | > | alpha,
| > | > | so I don't want to rush it along too quickly.
| > | > |
| > | > | Last chance to shout if there are any platform issues or
| anything
| > | > | that
| > | > | need resolving before beta (ideally with a commitment to fix
| it
| > | ASAP
| > | > | :) ).
| > | > |
| > | > | Julian
| > | > | _______________________________________________
| > | > | seaside-dev mailing list
| > | > | [hidden email]
| > | > |
| http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/seaside-dev
| > | > _______________________________________________
| > | > seaside-dev mailing list
| > | > [hidden email]
| > | > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/seaside-dev
| > | >
| >
_______________________________________________
seaside-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/seaside-dev

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Dale Henrichs
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Metacello has first-class versions as well, but parsing strings is part of the game. Humans will be writing and reading the strings:
>
>  Loader load: 'ConfigurationOfSeaside' version: '2.8.4'
>
> So Metacello has parsing rules for versions to convert back and forth between versions and strings.

Seems like that's always going to depend on people following a
particular convention. So either you force everyone to use the same
convention for their projects (not likely) or accept that the
Metacello version number may not match the project's own numbering
character-by-character... no?

I suppose the alternative is to track ancestry of versions somehow,
but that's a whole other story.

> I know that with Monticello, there never was a concrete (read enforced) definition for the file name. Gofer has imposed a parsing scheme on Monticello file names that works pretty well for calculating the latest file, but falls down when the creators of a Monticello filename use a convention that is at odds with Gofer's scheme ...
>
> I want to avoid that problem with Metacello, so this early in the game I'm willing to change my parsing scheme.

Sure, but is that really going to solve the problem universally (i.e.
for projects other than Seaside)?

> GRVersion can certainly be converted to MetacelloVersionNumber, but I am worried about the print string format (call me anal).
>
> If you are going to write a message that says load 1.0a6 of Grease, then I would hope that Metacello would load '1.0a6' of Grease and that the sort order of versions will work (there is a load latest option in Metacello)....Since I've already gone and created a version called 1.0alpha51 I can't imagine a parser/sorter that would sort 1.0a6 later than 1.0alpha5.1. If you can think of one I am interested.

Well, I can't personally imagine ever writing alpha6 in an email
unless I was really forcing myself to. I can imagine being told to
load a6, asking for a list of versions, and realizing that alpha6 is
the same thing, though...

As for parsing/sorting, Mozilla's scheme sounds like it might allow
what you want (
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Toolkit_version_format ) but it may
be a bit overkill.

> I'm already pretty well convinced that I was overly optimistic that something like 1.0-a6 would fly as a version naming scheme. But I am willing to change and from what I can tell, you'd like to use the name 1.0a6 instead of 1.0alpha6, so I think I will be changing the ConfigurationOfGrease configs ... better now, than later.

Well, I note that GRVersion's #greaseString is currently outputting
'alpha6' :) but that's just because I was using symbols for the
#alpha, #beta, and it was easier to just output the whole thing. I
dunno - mostly I'd just rather there was a way we didn't have to be so
sticky about strings. :)

Julian
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Keep in mind that the only reason for being sticky on the version is to be able to sort the versions. If sorting wasn't an issue, then any old string would work...

If you want to sort, then you must have a scheme otherwise '1.10' sorts earlier that '1.9' and that is not good. In this particular instance it is only necessary to have a parsing rule for distinguishing alphabetic components from numeric components and I know that I can parse 1.0a6 correctly ... it's just a little more programming.

Haha, the scheme that I had in mind appears to match what Mozilla has done...just break the components at string and numeric boundaries where '.' is the numeric separator...There version comparison algorithm is slightly different, but I'd rather follow Mozilla than almost follow Mozilla...

If you want to use 1.0a6 style versions just say the word and I'll make it so ... as I said, I think I will be following the Mozilla scheme going forward after discussion on mailing list which will make parsing a non-issue, but in the Mozilla scheme 1.0a6 still sorts less then 1.0alpha5.

Dale

----- "Julian Fitzell" <[hidden email]> wrote:

| On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Dale Henrichs
| <[hidden email]> wrote:
| > Metacello has first-class versions as well, but parsing strings is
| part of the game. Humans will be writing and reading the strings:
| >
| >  Loader load: 'ConfigurationOfSeaside' version: '2.8.4'
| >
| > So Metacello has parsing rules for versions to convert back and
| forth between versions and strings.
|
| Seems like that's always going to depend on people following a
| particular convention. So either you force everyone to use the same
| convention for their projects (not likely) or accept that the
| Metacello version number may not match the project's own numbering
| character-by-character... no?
|
| I suppose the alternative is to track ancestry of versions somehow,
| but that's a whole other story.
|
| > I know that with Monticello, there never was a concrete (read
| enforced) definition for the file name. Gofer has imposed a parsing
| scheme on Monticello file names that works pretty well for calculating
| the latest file, but falls down when the creators of a Monticello
| filename use a convention that is at odds with Gofer's scheme ...
| >
| > I want to avoid that problem with Metacello, so this early in the
| game I'm willing to change my parsing scheme.
|
| Sure, but is that really going to solve the problem universally (i.e.
| for projects other than Seaside)?
|
| > GRVersion can certainly be converted to MetacelloVersionNumber, but
| I am worried about the print string format (call me anal).
| >
| > If you are going to write a message that says load 1.0a6 of Grease,
| then I would hope that Metacello would load '1.0a6' of Grease and that
| the sort order of versions will work (there is a load latest option in
| Metacello)....Since I've already gone and created a version called
| 1.0alpha51 I can't imagine a parser/sorter that would sort 1.0a6 later
| than 1.0alpha5.1. If you can think of one I am interested.
|
| Well, I can't personally imagine ever writing alpha6 in an email
| unless I was really forcing myself to. I can imagine being told to
| load a6, asking for a list of versions, and realizing that alpha6 is
| the same thing, though...
|
| As for parsing/sorting, Mozilla's scheme sounds like it might allow
| what you want (
| https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Toolkit_version_format ) but it may
| be a bit overkill.
|
| > I'm already pretty well convinced that I was overly optimistic that
| something like 1.0-a6 would fly as a version naming scheme. But I am
| willing to change and from what I can tell, you'd like to use the name
| 1.0a6 instead of 1.0alpha6, so I think I will be changing the
| ConfigurationOfGrease configs ... better now, than later.
|
| Well, I note that GRVersion's #greaseString is currently outputting
| 'alpha6' :) but that's just because I was using symbols for the
| #alpha, #beta, and it was easier to just output the whole thing. I
| dunno - mostly I'd just rather there was a way we didn't have to be
| so
| sticky about strings. :)
|
| Julian
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On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Dale Henrichs
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you want to use 1.0a6 style versions just say the word and I'll make it so ... as I said, I think I will be following the Mozilla scheme going forward after discussion on mailing list which will make parsing a non-issue, but in the Mozilla scheme 1.0a6 still sorts less then 1.0alpha5.

Mmm.. as I said, I think GRVersion is currently outputting itself with
'alpha' anyway, so maybe that's most straightforward. But I just threw
it together because people wanted a version number they could look up
and I wasn't comfortable with using a String. :)

I honestly don't feel that strongly. Everyone else is keeping quiet; I
guess that means they don't care either?

Julian
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----- "Julian Fitzell" <[hidden email]> wrote:


| Well, I note that GRVersion's #greaseString is currently outputting
| 'alpha6' :) but that's just because I was using symbols for the
| #alpha, #beta, and it was easier to just output the whole thing. I
| dunno - mostly I'd just rather there was a way we didn't have to be
| so sticky about strings. :)

Okay we _could_ map strings to an ordinal number (part of pragma?) and use the ordinal for sorting (use Mozilla scheme to calculate ordinal, if not specified) ... not that big of a deal coding wise ... it would make it possible to match any old versioning scheme, but I assume that humans might start having trouble telling which version is greater than another:)

or...we could also provide a scheme whereby the Configuration itself could provide a hook method for creating a MetacelloVersionNumber from the version string...using the Mozilla parsing scheme by default and always using the Mozilla sorting algorithm...

Dale
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Julian,

I'm glad you brought the issue up .. in my scan through the known universe of Configurations, the Mozilla scheme would work just fine, so it's worth the discussion...

Dale

----- "Julian Fitzell" <[hidden email]> wrote:

| On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Dale Henrichs
| <[hidden email]> wrote:
| > If you want to use 1.0a6 style versions just say the word and I'll
| make it so ... as I said, I think I will be following the Mozilla
| scheme going forward after discussion on mailing list which will make
| parsing a non-issue, but in the Mozilla scheme 1.0a6 still sorts less
| then 1.0alpha5.
|
| Mmm.. as I said, I think GRVersion is currently outputting itself
| with
| 'alpha' anyway, so maybe that's most straightforward. But I just
| threw
| it together because people wanted a version number they could look up
| and I wasn't comfortable with using a String. :)
|
| I honestly don't feel that strongly. Everyone else is keeping quiet;
| I
| guess that means they don't care either?
|
| Julian
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