Seaside project ideas?

Hi,

I've browsed through the examples included with Seaside. I'm at a loss
to think of things that would take advantage of Seaside's
continuation-based nature.

What web applications are there worth building that have the kind of
complex control flow which necessitate the use of a framework like
Seaside?

Warren Henning
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Anything with a complex workflow.  Seriously, take a look the sample store's
checkout process, and consider what this might look like in a traditional
framework.

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> I've browsed through the examples included with Seaside. I'm
> at a loss to think of things that would take advantage of
> Seaside's continuation-based nature.
>
> What web applications are there worth building that have the
> kind of complex control flow which necessitate the use of a
> framework like Seaside?

Gosh...what web application, other than serving static pages, *wouldn't* be
easier in Seaside?


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On 9/5/06, Kurt Thams <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Gosh...what web application, other than serving static pages, *wouldn't* be
> easier in Seaside?

As I see it, you pay a price when you use Seaside. You get ugly URLs
that can't be hacked off to navigate with. The simple fact is users
use URLs as a user interface element. In exchange for a usability hit
you'd better be delivering an experience that's impossible to create
with Rails et al. Seaside is most appropriate where it doesn't make
sense to bookmark and navigate in a page-oriented manner.

Warren
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> On 9/5/06, Kurt Thams <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Gosh...what web application, other than serving static pages,
> > *wouldn't* be easier in Seaside?
>
> As I see it, you pay a price when you use Seaside. You get
> ugly URLs that can't be hacked off to navigate with. The
> simple fact is users use URLs as a user interface element. In
> exchange for a usability hit you'd better be delivering an
> experience that's impossible to create with Rails et al.

Impossible to create with Rails?

I don't see the tradeoff that way.

(1) The URLs issue is a tiny hit in usability; most people want to bookmark
entry points into an application, not every page inside it. This is
*especially* true of dynamic websites. Do you bookmark the page that
confirms your shipping address in a web shopping application?

(2) Seaside makes it really, really easy to develop applications that work
much more the way a user thinks. (Including: using the "Back" and "Forward"
buttons doesn't get the state all goofed up). This usability enhancement
alone more than makes up for the URL look problem, IMHO.

(3) In Seaside, it is so much easier to develop applications, as compared to
any other platform that I've seen. That *really* makes it a big win for me.
Sorry if my users don't get natty URLs, but there are some applications I
just wouldn't have bothered writing if I had to slog through any other
framework.

(4) Debugging is dramatically easier than debugging from other systems.
Really. (If anyone can describe another system that is comparable, I'd like
to know it).

What I'd suggest is that you try writing a simple application (or work
through some of the tutorials and then expand on their examples). My guess
is that in short order, you will find yourself creating complex, functioning
web sites that take you a tiny-tiny-tiny amount of time to get developed and
debugged!


I'll grant that Ruby on Rails is pretty sweet if you are doing an
application that displays and edits columnar data taken from an RDB, but I
suspect that sooner or later that same kind of functionality will get built
into Seaside.

Question for the community: Could the URL-based state mapping be addressed
some other way? (This has probably already been taken up here; if so,
sorry).




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Re: Question for the community: Could the URL-based state mapping be
addressed
some other way? (This has probably already been taken up here; if so,
sorry).

See this link,

http://www.lukas-renggli.ch/smalltalk/seaside/presentation/06.pdf
http://seaside.st/Documentation/NamingURLs/

Cheers!

-Boris

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-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kurt
Thams
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 10:50 AM
To: 'The Squeak Enterprise Aubergines Server - general discussion.'
Subject: RE: [Seaside] Seaside project ideas?

> On 9/5/06, Kurt Thams <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Gosh...what web application, other than serving static pages,
> > *wouldn't* be easier in Seaside?
>
> As I see it, you pay a price when you use Seaside. You get
> ugly URLs that can't be hacked off to navigate with. The
> simple fact is users use URLs as a user interface element. In
> exchange for a usability hit you'd better be delivering an
> experience that's impossible to create with Rails et al.

Impossible to create with Rails?

I don't see the tradeoff that way.

(1) The URLs issue is a tiny hit in usability; most people want to
bookmark
entry points into an application, not every page inside it. This is
*especially* true of dynamic websites. Do you bookmark the page that
confirms your shipping address in a web shopping application?

(2) Seaside makes it really, really easy to develop applications that
work
much more the way a user thinks. (Including: using the "Back" and
"Forward"
buttons doesn't get the state all goofed up). This usability enhancement
alone more than makes up for the URL look problem, IMHO.

(3) In Seaside, it is so much easier to develop applications, as
compared to
any other platform that I've seen. That *really* makes it a big win for
me.
Sorry if my users don't get natty URLs, but there are some applications
I
just wouldn't have bothered writing if I had to slog through any other
framework.

(4) Debugging is dramatically easier than debugging from other systems.
Really. (If anyone can describe another system that is comparable, I'd
like
to know it).

What I'd suggest is that you try writing a simple application (or work
through some of the tutorials and then expand on their examples). My
guess
is that in short order, you will find yourself creating complex,
functioning
web sites that take you a tiny-tiny-tiny amount of time to get developed
and
debugged!


I'll grant that Ruby on Rails is pretty sweet if you are doing an
application that displays and edits columnar data taken from an RDB, but
I
suspect that sooner or later that same kind of functionality will get
built
into Seaside.





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On Sep 5, 2006, at 11:01 AM, Boris Popov wrote:

> Re: Question for the community: Could the URL-based state mapping be
> addressed
> some other way? (This has probably already been taken up here; if so,
> sorry).

Hey Boris,

Can you elaborate on that?  Like, which goal you're trying to achieve  
that the current approach doesn't allow, or isn't easy enough for?

Avi
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Oh I think it works perfectly well, I was responding to Kurt's original
question on how this could be done in Seaside. Outlook doesn't do
quoting like other (read: sane) clients, so I just copied the question
over to the top of the message.

Cheers!

-Boris

--
+1.604.689.0322
DeepCove Labs Ltd.
4th floor 595 Howe Street
Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5

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-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Avi
Bryant
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 11:00 AM
To: The Squeak Enterprise Aubergines Server - general discussion.
Subject: Re: [Seaside] Naming URLs (Was: Seaside project ideas?)


On Sep 5, 2006, at 11:01 AM, Boris Popov wrote:

> Re: Question for the community: Could the URL-based state mapping be
> addressed
> some other way? (This has probably already been taken up here; if so,
> sorry).

Hey Boris,

Can you elaborate on that?  Like, which goal you're trying to achieve  
that the current approach doesn't allow, or isn't easy enough for?

Avi
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> Question for the community: Could the URL-based state mapping
> be addressed some other way? (This has probably already been
> taken up here; if so, sorry).

Have a look at Pier (written in Seaside of course), it has bookmarkable
URL's.  

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On Sep 5, 2006, at 11:06 AM, Boris Popov wrote:

> Oh I think it works perfectly well, I was responding to Kurt's  
> original
> question on how this could be done in Seaside. Outlook doesn't do
> quoting like other (read: sane) clients, so I just copied the question
> over to the top of the message.

Ah, I see.  Sorry.

I should note that those docs you linked to are somewhat out of date  
- usually all you should have to do now to handle extra URL params is  
override #initialRequest: on your root component.

Cheers,
Avi
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Could somebody add that to the FAQ :)

Stef

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Kurt Thams wrote:
> I'll grant that Ruby on Rails is pretty sweet if you are doing an
> application that displays and edits columnar data taken from an RDB, but I
> suspect that sooner or later that same kind of functionality will get built
> into Seaside.
>  

Wasn't this done already?  I would almost swear I have seen a seaside
project that did the same thing
as RoR?

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Jason Johnson wrote: So I take it, no one can think of something close to Ruby on Rails for
seaside?  What about DabbleDB?  Can't that do
some database imports and things?
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On Sep 8, 2006, at 7:13 AM, Jason Johnson wrote:
>
> So I take it, no one can think of something close to Ruby on Rails  
> for seaside?  What about DabbleDB?  Can't that do
> some database imports and things?

Dabble is an end-user product, not a framework you can use with  
Seaside, and it uses its own internal database, not an RDBMS.

Cheers,
Avi
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