Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
 
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Greetings friends.
As a web developer and passionate programmer, I am completely enamored with dynamic languages. Sadly, I have little experience with smalltalk. I've written some toy smalltalk code in the past, but most of my relevant knowledge derives from my ruby experience and smalltalk reading material. I've been considering delving back into smalltalk, but recent changes at work have encouraged me to delve into it sooner rather than later. To get started, I skimmed some tutorials, watched some videos and downloaded the Developer Image mentioned on this page: http://seaside.st/Download/Images/. So, here are some questions: 1. Should refactoring using the R button on the Class Browser work? As a test, I tried to rename the stop method of the WAKom class? I get an error message to the effect of "doesNotUnderstand #getArgumentPermutation". Is there some other image I should use? I am running windows for development. I am open to using another, free VM instead of Squeak, if it works better out of the box. I need a rich class and method browser, refactoring, debugging, syntax highlighting and preferably code completion. I don't mind installing "packages" to the image either. 2. Are there any examples of Seaside (or another, similar smalltalk based server) running heavy-load sites? What is the largest (in terms of load) site and what sort of traffic does it receive (or alexa rating if available)? Is it trivial to set up? Part of this exercise is to determine whether moving to Smalltalk is a viable solution performance-wise as opposed to moving to java as is currently being planned by my employer. 3. I absolutely need to have good source control that will work for, say, two dozen developers working on one project. Is there some thing nice that works with #1 above? 4. Is there any educational material I just "have to" devour? A video? Tutorial or pdf? A classic text? Thank you, all. I am really exciting to begin this journey, and I hoping to get a head start from your collective wisdom. Best wishes, Jared ps. I realize 1 and 3 are somewhat off topic, but, since I thought there might be a "turnkey" (hate that word ;)) solution, I thought it'd be ok to ask. _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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Hi
As you are currently using Squeak, is this the "platform" you want to deploy on? Cheers Philippe 2007/4/17, Jared Nuzzolillo <[hidden email]>: > Greetings friends. > > As a web developer and passionate programmer, I am completely enamored with > dynamic languages. Sadly, I have little experience with smalltalk. I've > written some toy smalltalk code in the past, but most of my relevant > knowledge derives from my ruby experience and smalltalk reading material. > I've been considering delving back into smalltalk, but recent changes at > work have encouraged me to delve into it sooner rather than later. > > To get started, I skimmed some tutorials, watched some videos and downloaded > the Developer Image mentioned on this page: > http://seaside.st/Download/Images/. > > So, here are some questions: > > 1. Should refactoring using the R button on the Class Browser work? As a > test, I tried to rename the stop method of the WAKom class? I get an error > message to the effect of "doesNotUnderstand #getArgumentPermutation". Is > there some other image I should use? I am running windows for development. I > am open to using another, free VM instead of Squeak, if it works better out > of the box. I need a rich class and method browser, refactoring, debugging, > syntax highlighting and preferably code completion. I don't mind installing > "packages" to the image either. > > 2. Are there any examples of Seaside (or another, similar smalltalk based > server) running heavy-load sites? What is the largest (in terms of load) > site and what sort of traffic does it receive (or alexa rating if > available)? Is it trivial to set up? Part of this exercise is to determine > whether moving to Smalltalk is a viable solution performance-wise as opposed > to moving to java as is currently being planned by my employer. > > 3. I absolutely need to have good source control that will work for, say, > two dozen developers working on one project. Is there some thing nice that > works with #1 above? > > 4. Is there any educational material I just "have to" devour? A video? > Tutorial or pdf? A classic text? > > Thank you, all. I am really exciting to begin this journey, and I hoping to > get a head start from your collective wisdom. > > Best wishes, > Jared > > ps. I realize 1 and 3 are somewhat off topic, but, since I thought there > might be a "turnkey" (hate that word ;)) solution, I thought it'd be ok to > ask. > > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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Hello Philippe. Thanks for responding.
I downloaded Squeak, but I don't need to use it. Any free 'platform' that fulfills the criteria I mentioned will suffice (ie, runs on windows, a rich class and method browser, refactoring, debugging, syntax highlighting and preferably code completion, some form of source control, real sites in production). Thanks! Jared On 4/17/07, Philippe Marschall <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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Hi
Smalltalk comes in different flavors/dialects much like Lisp. Squeak is one such dialect that is free as in beer. The two other Smalltalk dialects that Seaside runs on are Dolphin and VisualWorks. They are both commercial, run on windows, have refactoring, source code management, ... I haven't heard of any Dolphin Seaside applications in production but that doesn't mean they don't exist (they certainly exist for VisualWorks). The answers to some of your questions depend on which Smalltalk dialect you want to use. For example each dialect comes with its own source code management and although the tools are similar (they share the same heritage) they are still a bit different. Also VisualWorks is by far the most performant of them all. It may well be the fastest VW for dynamic code in production use. The VM is tied to your Smalltalk dialect. In theory you can port you code from one dialect to an other but in practice this is a whole different story. Cheers Philippe 2007/4/17, Jared Nuzzolillo <[hidden email]>: > Hello Philippe. Thanks for responding. > > I downloaded Squeak, but I don't need to use it. Any free 'platform' that > fulfills the criteria I mentioned will suffice (ie, runs on windows, a rich > class and method browser, refactoring, debugging, syntax highlighting and > preferably code completion, some form of source control, real sites in > production). > > Thanks! > Jared > > > On 4/17/07, Philippe Marschall <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi > > > > As you are currently using Squeak, is this the "platform" you want to > deploy on? > > > > Cheers > > Philippe > > > > 2007/4/17, Jared Nuzzolillo <[hidden email]>: > > > Greetings friends. > > > > > > As a web developer and passionate programmer, I am completely enamored > with > > > dynamic languages. Sadly, I have little experience with smalltalk. I've > > > written some toy smalltalk code in the past, but most of my relevant > > > knowledge derives from my ruby experience and smalltalk reading > material. > > > I've been considering delving back into smalltalk, but recent changes at > > > work have encouraged me to delve into it sooner rather than later. > > > > > > To get started, I skimmed some tutorials, watched some videos and > downloaded > > > the Developer Image mentioned on this page: > > > http://seaside.st/Download/Images/. > > > > > > So, here are some questions: > > > > > > 1. Should refactoring using the R button on the Class Browser work? As a > > > test, I tried to rename the stop method of the WAKom class? I get an > error > > > message to the effect of "doesNotUnderstand #getArgumentPermutation". Is > > > there some other image I should use? I am running windows for > development. I > > > am open to using another, free VM instead of Squeak, if it works better > out > > > of the box. I need a rich class and method browser, refactoring, > debugging, > > > syntax highlighting and preferably code completion. I don't mind > installing > > > "packages" to the image either. > > > > > > 2. Are there any examples of Seaside (or another, similar smalltalk > based > > > server) running heavy-load sites? What is the largest (in terms of load) > > > site and what sort of traffic does it receive (or alexa rating if > > > available)? Is it trivial to set up? Part of this exercise is to > determine > > > whether moving to Smalltalk is a viable solution performance-wise as > opposed > > > to moving to java as is currently being planned by my employer. > > > > > > 3. I absolutely need to have good source control that will work for, > say, > > > two dozen developers working on one project. Is there some thing nice > that > > > works with #1 above? > > > > > > 4. Is there any educational material I just "have to" devour? A video? > > > Tutorial or pdf? A classic text? > > > > > > Thank you, all. I am really exciting to begin this journey, and I hoping > to > > > get a head start from your collective wisdom. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > Jared > > > > > > ps. I realize 1 and 3 are somewhat off topic, but, since I thought there > > > might be a "turnkey" (hate that word ;)) solution, I thought it'd be ok > to > > > ask. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Seaside mailing list > > > [hidden email] > > > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seaside mailing list > > [hidden email] > > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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In reply to this post by Jared Nuzzolillo-2
For 3.9, I've built an image with lots of bug fixes and IDE
improvements. It has working refactoring*, syntax highlighting, auto-completion, method tracing, type-inferring navigation, reduced browser proliferation, and invertible-color brightness (e.g., white on black). It's a good-looking and very productive development image. I've not shared it, but I should. I've just uploaded it to my personal page on the swiki. http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2989 Good luck. - Chris * The "classic" refactoring features appended to the standard menus work. The 3.9 cascaded menu with refactoring options do not seem to be finished.. On 4/17/07, Jared Nuzzolillo <[hidden email]> wrote: > Greetings friends. > > As a web developer and passionate programmer, I am completely enamored with > dynamic languages. Sadly, I have little experience with smalltalk. I've > written some toy smalltalk code in the past, but most of my relevant > knowledge derives from my ruby experience and smalltalk reading material. > I've been considering delving back into smalltalk, but recent changes at > work have encouraged me to delve into it sooner rather than later. > > To get started, I skimmed some tutorials, watched some videos and downloaded > the Developer Image mentioned on this page: > http://seaside.st/Download/Images/. > > So, here are some questions: > > 1. Should refactoring using the R button on the Class Browser work? As a > test, I tried to rename the stop method of the WAKom class? I get an error > message to the effect of "doesNotUnderstand #getArgumentPermutation". Is > there some other image I should use? I am running windows for development. I > am open to using another, free VM instead of Squeak, if it works better out > of the box. I need a rich class and method browser, refactoring, debugging, > syntax highlighting and preferably code completion. I don't mind installing > "packages" to the image either. > > 2. Are there any examples of Seaside (or another, similar smalltalk based > server) running heavy-load sites? What is the largest (in terms of load) > site and what sort of traffic does it receive (or alexa rating if > available)? Is it trivial to set up? Part of this exercise is to determine > whether moving to Smalltalk is a viable solution performance-wise as opposed > to moving to java as is currently being planned by my employer. > > 3. I absolutely need to have good source control that will work for, say, > two dozen developers working on one project. Is there some thing nice that > works with #1 above? > > 4. Is there any educational material I just "have to" devour? A video? > Tutorial or pdf? A classic text? > > Thank you, all. I am really exciting to begin this journey, and I hoping to > get a head start from your collective wisdom. > > Best wishes, > Jared > > ps. I realize 1 and 3 are somewhat off topic, but, since I thought there > might be a "turnkey" (hate that word ;)) solution, I thought it'd be ok to > ask. > > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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I forgot to mention one other of my favorite features:
code-formatting in the "Rectangular Block" style (press Shift+Alt+S). On 4/17/07, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote: > For 3.9, I've built an image with lots of bug fixes and IDE > improvements. It has working refactoring*, syntax highlighting, > auto-completion, method tracing, type-inferring navigation, reduced > browser proliferation, and invertible-color brightness (e.g., white on > black). It's a good-looking and very productive development image. > > I've not shared it, but I should. I've just uploaded it to my > personal page on the swiki. > > http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2989 > > Good luck. > > - Chris > > * The "classic" refactoring features appended to the standard menus > work. The 3.9 cascaded menu with refactoring options do not seem to > be finished.. > > > On 4/17/07, Jared Nuzzolillo <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Greetings friends. > > > > As a web developer and passionate programmer, I am completely enamored with > > dynamic languages. Sadly, I have little experience with smalltalk. I've > > written some toy smalltalk code in the past, but most of my relevant > > knowledge derives from my ruby experience and smalltalk reading material. > > I've been considering delving back into smalltalk, but recent changes at > > work have encouraged me to delve into it sooner rather than later. > > > > To get started, I skimmed some tutorials, watched some videos and downloaded > > the Developer Image mentioned on this page: > > http://seaside.st/Download/Images/. > > > > So, here are some questions: > > > > 1. Should refactoring using the R button on the Class Browser work? As a > > test, I tried to rename the stop method of the WAKom class? I get an error > > message to the effect of "doesNotUnderstand #getArgumentPermutation". Is > > there some other image I should use? I am running windows for development. I > > am open to using another, free VM instead of Squeak, if it works better out > > of the box. I need a rich class and method browser, refactoring, debugging, > > syntax highlighting and preferably code completion. I don't mind installing > > "packages" to the image either. > > > > 2. Are there any examples of Seaside (or another, similar smalltalk based > > server) running heavy-load sites? What is the largest (in terms of load) > > site and what sort of traffic does it receive (or alexa rating if > > available)? Is it trivial to set up? Part of this exercise is to determine > > whether moving to Smalltalk is a viable solution performance-wise as opposed > > to moving to java as is currently being planned by my employer. > > > > 3. I absolutely need to have good source control that will work for, say, > > two dozen developers working on one project. Is there some thing nice that > > works with #1 above? > > > > 4. Is there any educational material I just "have to" devour? A video? > > Tutorial or pdf? A classic text? > > > > Thank you, all. I am really exciting to begin this journey, and I hoping to > > get a head start from your collective wisdom. > > > > Best wishes, > > Jared > > > > ps. I realize 1 and 3 are somewhat off topic, but, since I thought there > > might be a "turnkey" (hate that word ;)) solution, I thought it'd be ok to > > ask. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seaside mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > > > > Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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In reply to this post by Chris Muller-3
Thanks so much! I downloaded it and just loaded it to try it out.
On 4/17/07, Chris Muller <[hidden email]
> wrote: For 3.9, I've built an image with lots of bug fixes and IDE _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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In reply to this post by Philippe Marschall
Hi!
> Hi > > Smalltalk comes in different flavors/dialects much like Lisp. Squeak > is one such dialect that is free as in beer. I would say much more free than "beer" - especially given the latest relicensing, but it was pretty darn free (as in freedom) before that even. Perhaps you mixed up the metaphor? And further, some answers for Squeak specifically: > 2007/4/17, Jared Nuzzolillo <[hidden email]>: >> > > So, here are some questions: >> > > >> > > 1. Should refactoring using the R button on the Class Browser work? >> As a >> > > test, I tried to rename the stop method of the WAKom class? I get an >> error >> > > message to the effect of "doesNotUnderstand >> #getArgumentPermutation". Is >> > > there some other image I should use? I am running windows for >> development. I >> > > am open to using another, free VM instead of Squeak, if it works >> better >> out >> > > of the box. I need a rich class and method browser, refactoring, >> debugging, >> > > syntax highlighting and preferably code completion. I don't mind >> installing >> > > "packages" to the image either. There are tons of browsers and tools for Squeak, I am unsure of the status of RB in say Squeak 3.9, since I seldom use it. But Chris just posted a prepped dev image, and Damien Cassou also maintains a prepped dev image that might be worthwhile to track. I tend to personally only track vanilla releases and add my own tools as I see fit - but that is just a matter of taste. >> > > 2. Are there any examples of Seaside (or another, similar smalltalk >> based >> > > server) running heavy-load sites? What is the largest (in terms of >> load) >> > > site and what sort of traffic does it receive (or alexa rating if >> > > available)? My guess is that dabbledb.com is the one to check out. Also, for tips and tricks in scaling Seaside, do check out Ramon's blog: http://onsmalltalk.com >> Is it trivial to set up? It is trivial to set up for playing and development - but not trivial to set up for large scaling. But not really hard either I guess (by reading descriptions from Avi and Ramon). >> Part of this exercise is to >> determine >> > > whether moving to Smalltalk is a viable solution performance-wise as >> opposed >> > > to moving to java as is currently being planned by my employer. IMHO it all boils down to development effort. Seaside and Smalltalk simply ROCKS when it comes to advanced, dynamic, complex web apps. And all the money you easily save there (compared to say a Java setup) can be spent a little bit on other things that may be lacking. >> > > 3. I absolutely need to have good source control that will work for, >> say, >> > > two dozen developers working on one project. Is there some thing >> nice >> that >> > > works with #1 above? VisualWorks has its Store stuff - I guess it is good. And Squeak has Monticello which is really good and nice. I haven't used it in a larger setup but given its nature I don't foresee any problems - on the contrary - since it is so darn good at branching/merging having multiple devs working in parallell on different tasks/parts is very simple. >> > > 4. Is there any educational material I just "have to" devour? A >> video? >> > > Tutorial or pdf? A classic text? Ehm, probably plenty. :) Others probably have better pointers. If you are looking for general Smalltalk stuff - Stephane's free books are of course very nice, see first link at: http://www.squeak.org/Documentation/ >> > > Thank you, all. I am really exciting to begin this journey, and I >> hoping >> to >> > > get a head start from your collective wisdom. Feel free to ask more - the Squeak community is a helpful and happy bunch. And the Seasiders too of course! (largely overlapping) regards, Göran _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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2007/4/18, Göran Krampe <[hidden email]>:
> Hi! > > > Hi > > > > Smalltalk comes in different flavors/dialects much like Lisp. Squeak > > is one such dialect that is free as in beer. > > I would say much more free than "beer" - especially given the latest > relicensing, but it was pretty darn free (as in freedom) before that even. > > Perhaps you mixed up the metaphor? License which is neither OpenSource(tm) nor accepted by the FSF. If SqueakL is so cool like we have been told all those years, why relicense? > And further, some answers for Squeak specifically: > > > 2007/4/17, Jared Nuzzolillo <[hidden email]>: > >> > > So, here are some questions: > >> > > > >> > > 1. Should refactoring using the R button on the Class Browser work? > >> As a > >> > > test, I tried to rename the stop method of the WAKom class? I get an > >> error > >> > > message to the effect of "doesNotUnderstand > >> #getArgumentPermutation". Is > >> > > there some other image I should use? I am running windows for > >> development. I > >> > > am open to using another, free VM instead of Squeak, if it works > >> better > >> out > >> > > of the box. I need a rich class and method browser, refactoring, > >> debugging, > >> > > syntax highlighting and preferably code completion. I don't mind > >> installing > >> > > "packages" to the image either. > > There are tons of browsers and tools for Squeak, I am unsure of the status > of RB in say Squeak 3.9, since I seldom use it. But Chris just posted a > prepped dev image, and Damien Cassou also maintains a prepped dev image > that might be worthwhile to track. I tend to personally only track vanilla > releases and add my own tools as I see fit - but that is just a matter of > taste. > > >> > > 2. Are there any examples of Seaside (or another, similar smalltalk > >> based > >> > > server) running heavy-load sites? What is the largest (in terms of > >> load) > >> > > site and what sort of traffic does it receive (or alexa rating if > >> > > available)? > > My guess is that dabbledb.com is the one to check out. Also, for tips and > tricks in scaling Seaside, do check out Ramon's blog: > > http://onsmalltalk.com > > >> Is it trivial to set up? > > It is trivial to set up for playing and development - but not trivial to > set up for large scaling. But not really hard either I guess (by reading > descriptions from Avi and Ramon). > > >> Part of this exercise is to > >> determine > >> > > whether moving to Smalltalk is a viable solution performance-wise as > >> opposed > >> > > to moving to java as is currently being planned by my employer. > > IMHO it all boils down to development effort. Seaside and Smalltalk simply > ROCKS when it comes to advanced, dynamic, complex web apps. And all the > money you easily save there (compared to say a Java setup) can be spent a > little bit on other things that may be lacking. > > >> > > 3. I absolutely need to have good source control that will work for, > >> say, > >> > > two dozen developers working on one project. Is there some thing > >> nice > >> that > >> > > works with #1 above? > > VisualWorks has its Store stuff - I guess it is good. > > And Squeak has Monticello which is really good and nice. I haven't used it > in a larger setup but given its nature I don't foresee any problems - on > the contrary - since it is so darn good at branching/merging having > multiple devs working in parallell on different tasks/parts is very > simple. PackageInfo becomes a major speed bottleneck. > >> > > 4. Is there any educational material I just "have to" devour? A > >> video? > >> > > Tutorial or pdf? A classic text? > > Ehm, probably plenty. :) Others probably have better pointers. If you are > looking for general Smalltalk stuff - Stephane's free books are of course > very nice, see first link at: > > http://www.squeak.org/Documentation/ > > >> > > Thank you, all. I am really exciting to begin this journey, and I > >> hoping > >> to > >> > > get a head start from your collective wisdom. > > Feel free to ask more - the Squeak community is a helpful and happy bunch. > And the Seasiders too of course! (largely overlapping) > > regards, Göran > > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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Hi!
> 2007/4/18, Göran Krampe <[hidden email]>: >> Hi! >> >> > Hi >> > >> > Smalltalk comes in different flavors/dialects much like Lisp. Squeak >> > is one such dialect that is free as in beer. >> >> I would say much more free than "beer" - especially given the latest >> relicensing, but it was pretty darn free (as in freedom) before that >> even. >> >> Perhaps you mixed up the metaphor? > > The last time I checked Squeak 3.8 and 3.9 were still under Squeak > License which is neither OpenSource(tm) nor accepted by the FSF. If > SqueakL is so cool like we have been told all those years, why > relicense? I am certain you know the details why OSI did not accept it, and it stumbled on a detail which doesn't affect most people IMHO. I didn't know FSF ever was consulted to express any opinion on SqueakL - perhaps you mean the fact that Debian rejected it (on different grounds than OSI did)? But fact remains - equalling SqueakL with other restricted "free as in free beer"-licenses is way off the mark. For most purposes SqueakL is *very* free. And oh, AFAIK the major reason for the recent relicensing effort is Redhat insisting on it for the OLPC. I applaud it of course, it will probably lead to: - Inclusion in Debian and other distros. - A much simpler license putting and end to all discussions. - Compatibility with GPL etc, if needed. - OSI certification. But for most *other* practical purposes I don't think it will make much difference to most of us. >> VisualWorks has its Store stuff - I guess it is good. >> >> And Squeak has Monticello which is really good and nice. I haven't used >> it >> in a larger setup but given its nature I don't foresee any problems - on >> the contrary - since it is so darn good at branching/merging having >> multiple devs working in parallell on different tasks/parts is very >> simple. > > As long as our packages don't get too big. Once that happens > PackageInfo becomes a major speed bottleneck. Yes, that is true. But splitting a little bit probably goes a long way. Gjallar is reaching that point soon - but then we will most probably just split it in 2-3 packages. And there have been work done on speeding it up, or? I faintly recall so. regards, Göran _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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In reply to this post by Jared Nuzzolillo
On 17 avr. 07, at 19:44, Jared Nuzzolillo wrote: > Hello Philippe. Thanks for responding. > > I downloaded Squeak, but I don't need to use it. Any free > 'platform' that fulfills the criteria I mentioned will suffice (ie, > runs on windows, a rich class and method browser, refactoring, > debugging, syntax highlighting and preferably code completion, some > form of source control, real sites in production). Squeak has all that. have a look at the Squeak-dev image on squeak.org Stef > > Thanks! > Jared > > On 4/17/07, Philippe Marschall <[hidden email]> > wrote: Hi > > As you are currently using Squeak, is this the "platform" you want > to deploy on? > > Cheers > Philippe > > 2007/4/17, Jared Nuzzolillo <[hidden email]>: > > Greetings friends. > > > > As a web developer and passionate programmer, I am completely > enamored with > > dynamic languages. Sadly, I have little experience with > smalltalk. I've > > written some toy smalltalk code in the past, but most of my relevant > > knowledge derives from my ruby experience and smalltalk reading > material. > > I've been considering delving back into smalltalk, but recent > changes at > > work have encouraged me to delve into it sooner rather than later. > > > > To get started, I skimmed some tutorials, watched some videos and > downloaded > > the Developer Image mentioned on this page: > > http://seaside.st/Download/Images/. > > > > So, here are some questions: > > > > 1. Should refactoring using the R button on the Class Browser > work? As a > > test, I tried to rename the stop method of the WAKom class? I get > an error > > message to the effect of "doesNotUnderstand > #getArgumentPermutation". Is > > there some other image I should use? I am running windows for > development. I > > am open to using another, free VM instead of Squeak, if it works > better out > > of the box. I need a rich class and method browser, refactoring, > debugging, > > syntax highlighting and preferably code completion. I don't mind > installing > > "packages" to the image either. > > > > 2. Are there any examples of Seaside (or another, similar > smalltalk based > > server) running heavy-load sites? What is the largest (in terms > of load) > > site and what sort of traffic does it receive (or alexa rating if > > available)? Is it trivial to set up? Part of this exercise is to > determine > > whether moving to Smalltalk is a viable solution performance-wise > as opposed > > to moving to java as is currently being planned by my employer. > > > > 3. I absolutely need to have good source control that will work > for, say, > > two dozen developers working on one project. Is there some thing > nice that > > works with #1 above? > > > > 4. Is there any educational material I just "have to" devour? A > video? > > Tutorial or pdf? A classic text? > > > > Thank you, all. I am really exciting to begin this journey, and I > hoping to > > get a head start from your collective wisdom. > > > > Best wishes, > > Jared > > > > ps. I realize 1 and 3 are somewhat off topic, but, since I > thought there > > might be a "turnkey" (hate that word ;)) solution, I thought it'd > be ok to > > ask. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Seaside mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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In reply to this post by Chris Muller-3
Chris
what are the changes you did that could be retrofitted either in Squeak or in Squeak-dev image :) Stef On 18 avr. 07, at 05:14, Chris Muller wrote: > For 3.9, I've built an image with lots of bug fixes and IDE > improvements. It has working refactoring*, syntax highlighting, > auto-completion, method tracing, type-inferring navigation, reduced > browser proliferation, and invertible-color brightness (e.g., white on > black). It's a good-looking and very productive development image. > > I've not shared it, but I should. I've just uploaded it to my > personal page on the swiki. > > http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2989 > > Good luck. > > - Chris > > * The "classic" refactoring features appended to the standard menus > work. The 3.9 cascaded menu with refactoring options do not seem to > be finished.. > > > On 4/17/07, Jared Nuzzolillo <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Greetings friends. >> >> As a web developer and passionate programmer, I am completely >> enamored with >> dynamic languages. Sadly, I have little experience with smalltalk. >> I've >> written some toy smalltalk code in the past, but most of my relevant >> knowledge derives from my ruby experience and smalltalk reading >> material. >> I've been considering delving back into smalltalk, but recent >> changes at >> work have encouraged me to delve into it sooner rather than later. >> >> To get started, I skimmed some tutorials, watched some videos and >> downloaded >> the Developer Image mentioned on this page: >> http://seaside.st/Download/Images/. >> >> So, here are some questions: >> >> 1. Should refactoring using the R button on the Class Browser >> work? As a >> test, I tried to rename the stop method of the WAKom class? I get >> an error >> message to the effect of "doesNotUnderstand >> #getArgumentPermutation". Is >> there some other image I should use? I am running windows for >> development. I >> am open to using another, free VM instead of Squeak, if it works >> better out >> of the box. I need a rich class and method browser, refactoring, >> debugging, >> syntax highlighting and preferably code completion. I don't mind >> installing >> "packages" to the image either. >> >> 2. Are there any examples of Seaside (or another, similar >> smalltalk based >> server) running heavy-load sites? What is the largest (in terms of >> load) >> site and what sort of traffic does it receive (or alexa rating if >> available)? Is it trivial to set up? Part of this exercise is to >> determine >> whether moving to Smalltalk is a viable solution performance-wise >> as opposed >> to moving to java as is currently being planned by my employer. >> >> 3. I absolutely need to have good source control that will work >> for, say, >> two dozen developers working on one project. Is there some thing >> nice that >> works with #1 above? >> >> 4. Is there any educational material I just "have to" devour? A >> video? >> Tutorial or pdf? A classic text? >> >> Thank you, all. I am really exciting to begin this journey, and I >> hoping to >> get a head start from your collective wisdom. >> >> Best wishes, >> Jared >> >> ps. I realize 1 and 3 are somewhat off topic, but, since I thought >> there >> might be a "turnkey" (hate that word ;)) solution, I thought it'd >> be ok to >> ask. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Seaside mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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In reply to this post by Philippe Marschall
Philippe this will change. :)
And squeak will be even cooler. Stef > The last time I checked Squeak 3.8 and 3.9 were still under Squeak > License which is neither OpenSource(tm) nor accepted by the FSF. If > SqueakL is so cool like we have been told all those years, why > relicense? > >> And further, some answers for Squeak specifically: >> >> > 2007/4/17, Jared Nuzzolillo <[hidden email]>: >> >> > > So, here are some questions: >> >> > > >> >> > > 1. Should refactoring using the R button on the Class >> Browser work? >> >> As a >> >> > > test, I tried to rename the stop method of the WAKom class? >> I get an >> >> error >> >> > > message to the effect of "doesNotUnderstand >> >> #getArgumentPermutation". Is >> >> > > there some other image I should use? I am running windows for >> >> development. I >> >> > > am open to using another, free VM instead of Squeak, if it >> works >> >> better >> >> out >> >> > > of the box. I need a rich class and method browser, >> refactoring, >> >> debugging, >> >> > > syntax highlighting and preferably code completion. I don't >> mind >> >> installing >> >> > > "packages" to the image either. >> >> There are tons of browsers and tools for Squeak, I am unsure of >> the status >> of RB in say Squeak 3.9, since I seldom use it. But Chris just >> posted a >> prepped dev image, and Damien Cassou also maintains a prepped dev >> image >> that might be worthwhile to track. I tend to personally only track >> vanilla >> releases and add my own tools as I see fit - but that is just a >> matter of >> taste. >> >> >> > > 2. Are there any examples of Seaside (or another, similar >> smalltalk >> >> based >> >> > > server) running heavy-load sites? What is the largest (in >> terms of >> >> load) >> >> > > site and what sort of traffic does it receive (or alexa >> rating if >> >> > > available)? >> >> My guess is that dabbledb.com is the one to check out. Also, for >> tips and >> tricks in scaling Seaside, do check out Ramon's blog: >> >> http://onsmalltalk.com >> >> >> Is it trivial to set up? >> >> It is trivial to set up for playing and development - but not >> trivial to >> set up for large scaling. But not really hard either I guess (by >> reading >> descriptions from Avi and Ramon). >> >> >> Part of this exercise is to >> >> determine >> >> > > whether moving to Smalltalk is a viable solution >> performance-wise as >> >> opposed >> >> > > to moving to java as is currently being planned by my >> employer. >> >> IMHO it all boils down to development effort. Seaside and >> Smalltalk simply >> ROCKS when it comes to advanced, dynamic, complex web apps. And >> all the >> money you easily save there (compared to say a Java setup) can be >> spent a >> little bit on other things that may be lacking. >> >> >> > > 3. I absolutely need to have good source control that will >> work for, >> >> say, >> >> > > two dozen developers working on one project. Is there some >> thing >> >> nice >> >> that >> >> > > works with #1 above? >> >> VisualWorks has its Store stuff - I guess it is good. >> >> And Squeak has Monticello which is really good and nice. I haven't >> used it >> in a larger setup but given its nature I don't foresee any >> problems - on >> the contrary - since it is so darn good at branching/merging having >> multiple devs working in parallell on different tasks/parts is very >> simple. > > As long as our packages don't get too big. Once that happens > PackageInfo becomes a major speed bottleneck. > >> >> > > 4. Is there any educational material I just "have to" >> devour? A >> >> video? >> >> > > Tutorial or pdf? A classic text? >> >> Ehm, probably plenty. :) Others probably have better pointers. If >> you are >> looking for general Smalltalk stuff - Stephane's free books are of >> course >> very nice, see first link at: >> >> http://www.squeak.org/Documentation/ >> >> >> > > Thank you, all. I am really exciting to begin this journey, >> and I >> >> hoping >> >> to >> >> > > get a head start from your collective wisdom. >> >> Feel free to ask more - the Squeak community is a helpful and >> happy bunch. >> And the Seasiders too of course! (largely overlapping) >> >> regards, Göran >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Seaside mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >> > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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In reply to this post by stephane ducasse
There are a couple of things I think are crucial that are missing from
the standard and -dev images. I'll gather and post details on settools in a few days. Thanks.. On 4/18/07, stephane ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: > Chris > > what are the changes you did that could be retrofitted either in > Squeak or in Squeak-dev image :) > > Stef > > On 18 avr. 07, at 05:14, Chris Muller wrote: > > > For 3.9, I've built an image with lots of bug fixes and IDE > > improvements. It has working refactoring*, syntax highlighting, > > auto-completion, method tracing, type-inferring navigation, reduced > > browser proliferation, and invertible-color brightness (e.g., white on > > black). It's a good-looking and very productive development image. > > > > I've not shared it, but I should. I've just uploaded it to my > > personal page on the swiki. > > > > http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2989 > > > > Good luck. > > > > - Chris > > > > * The "classic" refactoring features appended to the standard menus > > work. The 3.9 cascaded menu with refactoring options do not seem to > > be finished.. > > > > > > On 4/17/07, Jared Nuzzolillo <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Greetings friends. > >> > >> As a web developer and passionate programmer, I am completely > >> enamored with > >> dynamic languages. Sadly, I have little experience with smalltalk. > >> I've > >> written some toy smalltalk code in the past, but most of my relevant > >> knowledge derives from my ruby experience and smalltalk reading > >> material. > >> I've been considering delving back into smalltalk, but recent > >> changes at > >> work have encouraged me to delve into it sooner rather than later. > >> > >> To get started, I skimmed some tutorials, watched some videos and > >> downloaded > >> the Developer Image mentioned on this page: > >> http://seaside.st/Download/Images/. > >> > >> So, here are some questions: > >> > >> 1. Should refactoring using the R button on the Class Browser > >> work? As a > >> test, I tried to rename the stop method of the WAKom class? I get > >> an error > >> message to the effect of "doesNotUnderstand > >> #getArgumentPermutation". Is > >> there some other image I should use? I am running windows for > >> development. I > >> am open to using another, free VM instead of Squeak, if it works > >> better out > >> of the box. I need a rich class and method browser, refactoring, > >> debugging, > >> syntax highlighting and preferably code completion. I don't mind > >> installing > >> "packages" to the image either. > >> > >> 2. Are there any examples of Seaside (or another, similar > >> smalltalk based > >> server) running heavy-load sites? What is the largest (in terms of > >> load) > >> site and what sort of traffic does it receive (or alexa rating if > >> available)? Is it trivial to set up? Part of this exercise is to > >> determine > >> whether moving to Smalltalk is a viable solution performance-wise > >> as opposed > >> to moving to java as is currently being planned by my employer. > >> > >> 3. I absolutely need to have good source control that will work > >> for, say, > >> two dozen developers working on one project. Is there some thing > >> nice that > >> works with #1 above? > >> > >> 4. Is there any educational material I just "have to" devour? A > >> video? > >> Tutorial or pdf? A classic text? > >> > >> Thank you, all. I am really exciting to begin this journey, and I > >> hoping to > >> get a head start from your collective wisdom. > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> Jared > >> > >> ps. I realize 1 and 3 are somewhat off topic, but, since I thought > >> there > >> might be a "turnkey" (hate that word ;)) solution, I thought it'd > >> be ok to > >> ask. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Seaside mailing list > >> [hidden email] > >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Seaside mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > > > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Seaside / smalltalk: tools and scalability
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In reply to this post by stephane ducasse
I'm just talking about how things are today. Given that Java was open
sourced I wouldn't be surprised if one day VisualWorks or Dolphin were open sourced. But that's not how things are today. At one point we will probably have Monticello 2 and atomic loading, but not today and not tomorrow. Philippe 2007/4/18, stephane ducasse <[hidden email]>: > Philippe this will change. :) > And squeak will be even cooler. > > Stef > > > The last time I checked Squeak 3.8 and 3.9 were still under Squeak > > License which is neither OpenSource(tm) nor accepted by the FSF. If > > SqueakL is so cool like we have been told all those years, why > > relicense? > > > >> And further, some answers for Squeak specifically: > >> > >> > 2007/4/17, Jared Nuzzolillo <[hidden email]>: > >> >> > > So, here are some questions: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > 1. Should refactoring using the R button on the Class > >> Browser work? > >> >> As a > >> >> > > test, I tried to rename the stop method of the WAKom class? > >> I get an > >> >> error > >> >> > > message to the effect of "doesNotUnderstand > >> >> #getArgumentPermutation". Is > >> >> > > there some other image I should use? I am running windows for > >> >> development. I > >> >> > > am open to using another, free VM instead of Squeak, if it > >> works > >> >> better > >> >> out > >> >> > > of the box. I need a rich class and method browser, > >> refactoring, > >> >> debugging, > >> >> > > syntax highlighting and preferably code completion. I don't > >> mind > >> >> installing > >> >> > > "packages" to the image either. > >> > >> There are tons of browsers and tools for Squeak, I am unsure of > >> the status > >> of RB in say Squeak 3.9, since I seldom use it. But Chris just > >> posted a > >> prepped dev image, and Damien Cassou also maintains a prepped dev > >> image > >> that might be worthwhile to track. I tend to personally only track > >> vanilla > >> releases and add my own tools as I see fit - but that is just a > >> matter of > >> taste. > >> > >> >> > > 2. Are there any examples of Seaside (or another, similar > >> smalltalk > >> >> based > >> >> > > server) running heavy-load sites? What is the largest (in > >> terms of > >> >> load) > >> >> > > site and what sort of traffic does it receive (or alexa > >> rating if > >> >> > > available)? > >> > >> My guess is that dabbledb.com is the one to check out. Also, for > >> tips and > >> tricks in scaling Seaside, do check out Ramon's blog: > >> > >> http://onsmalltalk.com > >> > >> >> Is it trivial to set up? > >> > >> It is trivial to set up for playing and development - but not > >> trivial to > >> set up for large scaling. But not really hard either I guess (by > >> reading > >> descriptions from Avi and Ramon). > >> > >> >> Part of this exercise is to > >> >> determine > >> >> > > whether moving to Smalltalk is a viable solution > >> performance-wise as > >> >> opposed > >> >> > > to moving to java as is currently being planned by my > >> employer. > >> > >> IMHO it all boils down to development effort. Seaside and > >> Smalltalk simply > >> ROCKS when it comes to advanced, dynamic, complex web apps. And > >> all the > >> money you easily save there (compared to say a Java setup) can be > >> spent a > >> little bit on other things that may be lacking. > >> > >> >> > > 3. I absolutely need to have good source control that will > >> work for, > >> >> say, > >> >> > > two dozen developers working on one project. Is there some > >> thing > >> >> nice > >> >> that > >> >> > > works with #1 above? > >> > >> VisualWorks has its Store stuff - I guess it is good. > >> > >> And Squeak has Monticello which is really good and nice. I haven't > >> used it > >> in a larger setup but given its nature I don't foresee any > >> problems - on > >> the contrary - since it is so darn good at branching/merging having > >> multiple devs working in parallell on different tasks/parts is very > >> simple. > > > > As long as our packages don't get too big. Once that happens > > PackageInfo becomes a major speed bottleneck. > > > >> >> > > 4. Is there any educational material I just "have to" > >> devour? A > >> >> video? > >> >> > > Tutorial or pdf? A classic text? > >> > >> Ehm, probably plenty. :) Others probably have better pointers. If > >> you are > >> looking for general Smalltalk stuff - Stephane's free books are of > >> course > >> very nice, see first link at: > >> > >> http://www.squeak.org/Documentation/ > >> > >> >> > > Thank you, all. I am really exciting to begin this journey, > >> and I > >> >> hoping > >> >> to > >> >> > > get a head start from your collective wisdom. > >> > >> Feel free to ask more - the Squeak community is a helpful and > >> happy bunch. > >> And the Seasiders too of course! (largely overlapping) > >> > >> regards, Göran > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Seaside mailing list > >> [hidden email] > >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Seaside mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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