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Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

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stepharo

Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

HI

yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because
he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not
protocol.
I had to create first a protocol.

I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that.
Because Nautilus displays
the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template.
But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative.

Stef

gcotelli

Re: Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

Maybe add a "New Method" button somewhere that changes the class definition with a method template ?

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:42 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:

HI

yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because
he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not protocol.
I had to create first a protocol.

I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that. Because Nautilus displays
the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template.
But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative.

Stef

CyrilFerlicot

Re: Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

In reply to this post by stepharo

Le 17/01/2016 12:42, stepharo a écrit :
> HI
>
> yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because
> he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not
> protocol.
> I had to create first a protocol.
>

Hi,

Nautilus should always have a protocol on class side. If there is none,
there is the "no messages" one.

> I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that.
> Because Nautilus displays
> the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template.
> But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative.
>
> Stef
>

--
Cyril Ferlicot

http://www.synectique.eu

165 Avenue Bretagne
Lille 59000 France

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Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

In reply to this post by gcotelli

> On 17 Jan 2016, at 15:52, Gabriel Cotelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Maybe add a "New Method" button somewhere that changes the class definition with a method template ?

But only when it is needed.

The overall Nautilus interface is becoming way too busy and distracting.

> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:42 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> HI
>
> yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because
> he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not protocol.
> I had to create first a protocol.
>
> I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that. Because Nautilus displays
> the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template.
> But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative.
>
> Stef
>
>

stepharo

Re: Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

Le 17/1/16 16:09, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :
>> On 17 Jan 2016, at 15:52, Gabriel Cotelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Maybe add a "New Method" button somewhere that changes the class definition with a method template ?
> But only when it is needed.
>
> The overall Nautilus interface is becoming way too busy and distracting.

Where?
Because we removed features so I'm surprised and we wanted to remove more
but people use them.

Stef

>
>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:42 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> HI
>>
>> yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because
>> he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not protocol.
>> I had to create first a protocol.
>>
>> I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that. Because Nautilus displays
>> the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template.
>> But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>
>

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

On 17 Jan 2016, at 17:13, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Le 17/1/16 16:09, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :
On 17 Jan 2016, at 15:52, Gabriel Cotelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

Maybe add a "New Method" button somewhere that changes the class definition with a method template ?
But only when it is needed.

The overall Nautilus interface is becoming way too busy and distracting.

Where?
Because we removed features so I'm surprised and we wanted to remove more
but people use them.

Let see (this is my personal opinion, not necessarily the most beginner friendly view):

- I never use the history navigator, not the drop down, nor the arrows

- The previous location of variables was better (small icon)

- I never use the weird search/filter field with the pattern

- I never use scoped browsing

- I never use format as you read

- I never want line numbers

- I never want to know where the cursor is

- I only want critics when I say so, not all the time

Again, this is my POV. And I definitively still want to have these features around, I just don't want to *see* them all the time.

Spotter gets me to classes & methods, the rest is command-click and short cuts.

Stef

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:42 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
HI

yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because
he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not protocol.
I had to create first a protocol.

I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that. Because Nautilus displays
the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template.
But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative.

Stef

EstebanLM

Re: Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

well, I disagree :)

On 17 Jan 2016, at 17:47, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 17 Jan 2016, at 17:13, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Le 17/1/16 16:09, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :
On 17 Jan 2016, at 15:52, Gabriel Cotelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

Maybe add a "New Method" button somewhere that changes the class definition with a method template ?
But only when it is needed.

The overall Nautilus interface is becoming way too busy and distracting.

Where?
Because we removed features so I'm surprised and we wanted to remove more
but people use them.

Let see (this is my personal opinion, not necessarily the most beginner friendly view):

<Screen Shot 2016-01-17 at 17.39.34.png>

- I never use the history navigator, not the drop down, nor the arrows
- The previous location of variables was better (small icon)
- I never use the weird search/filter field with the pattern
- I never use scoped browsing
- I never use format as you read
- I never want line numbers
- I never want to know where the cursor is
- I only want critics when I say so, not all the time

- I never use history navigator neither

- I like variables where they are now :)

- I use “weird” search/filter all the time

- I use very often scoped browsing (I do a lot of refactors)

- I do not use format as you read neither, but I like to have it there… can be useful.

- line numbers I do not care, but that space will be useful for breakpoints/etc.

- I need to know where cursor is, or at least I feel myself more confident when I know.

- I not only want critics *always*: I also want critics always for everybody: I spotted many bugs I could made just for having them there… and in particular newbies can find them useful :)

Again, this is my POV. And I definitively still want to have these features around, I just don't want to *see* them all the time.

And these are mine… :P

That’s why we should not take *our* convenience as a model (we can, after all modify a lot of that just with settings or ignoring them :P)

In my own feedback, Nautilus (and the IDE in general) has become a lot more attractive to newcomers now, and the visual contamination (again, as far as I’ve been told by newbies and students, etc.) is not that. Quite the contrary they feel it as “reassuring” (because it resembles a bit more what they know from other IDEs).

My idea is that newbies will welcome to see them all the time, and we (power users) can disable what we do not want in settings (and we can have a preference with our own… preferences :P.

Is the same I do about Dark Theme for example: I activate it always by default.

Or with the Growl notifications: I hate them in bottom-left corner, I would prefer it in top-right… or bottom right… then I just change it :)

So +1 enhance configurability of the system, -100 to remove/hide features that are important specially for newbies.

cheers,

Esteban

Spotter gets me to classes & methods, the rest is command-click and short cuts.

Stef

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:42 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
HI

yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because
he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not protocol.
I had to create first a protocol.

I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that. Because Nautilus displays
the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template.
But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative.

Stef

stepharo

Re: Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Indeed this is your POV.

- I never use the history navigator, not the drop down, nor the arrows

Me neither I we removed it but people uses it.

- The previous location of variables was better (small icon)

I do not know I could never understand them. ;)

- I never use the weird search/filter field with the pattern

I use it all the time

- I never use scoped browsing

all the time

- I never use format as you read

all the time

- I never want line numbers

Indeed I do not care

- I never want to know where the cursor is

- I only want critics when I say so, not all the time

Again, this is my POV. And I definitively still want to have these features around, I just don't want to *see* them all the time.

Spotter gets me to classes & methods, the rest is command-click and short cuts.

Stef

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:42 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
HI

yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because
he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not protocol.
I had to create first a protocol.

I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that. Because Nautilus displays
the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template.
But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative.

Stef

kilon.alios

Re: Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

Plus any self respecting IDE has some form of code critic enabled by default, it would be weird to disable it in pharo when Pharo boast that it has a powerful IDE.

and generally I agree with Esteban post, except scoped browsing, I have not figure out its usefulness yet.

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 7:26 PM Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:

well, I disagree :)

On 17 Jan 2016, at 17:47, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 17 Jan 2016, at 17:13, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:

Le 17/1/16 16:09, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :
On 17 Jan 2016, at 15:52, Gabriel Cotelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

Maybe add a "New Method" button somewhere that changes the class definition with a method template ?
But only when it is needed.

The overall Nautilus interface is becoming way too busy and distracting.

Where?
Because we removed features so I'm surprised and we wanted to remove more
but people use them.

Let see (this is my personal opinion, not necessarily the most beginner friendly view):

<Screen Shot 2016-01-17 at 17.39.34.png>

- I never use the history navigator, not the drop down, nor the arrows
- The previous location of variables was better (small icon)
- I never use the weird search/filter field with the pattern
- I never use scoped browsing
- I never use format as you read
- I never want line numbers
- I never want to know where the cursor is
- I only want critics when I say so, not all the time

- I never use history navigator neither
- I like variables where they are now :)
- I use “weird” search/filter all the time
- I use very often scoped browsing (I do a lot of refactors)
- I do not use format as you read neither, but I like to have it there… can be useful.
- line numbers I do not care, but that space will be useful for breakpoints/etc.
- I need to know where cursor is, or at least I feel myself more confident when I know.
- I not only want critics *always*: I also want critics always for everybody: I spotted many bugs I could made just for having them there… and in particular newbies can find them useful :)

Again, this is my POV. And I definitively still want to have these features around, I just don't want to *see* them all the time.

And these are mine… :P
That’s why we should not take *our* convenience as a model (we can, after all modify a lot of that just with settings or ignoring them :P)

In my own feedback, Nautilus (and the IDE in general) has become a lot more attractive to newcomers now, and the visual contamination (again, as far as I’ve been told by newbies and students, etc.) is not that. Quite the contrary they feel it as “reassuring” (because it resembles a bit more what they know from other IDEs).

My idea is that newbies will welcome to see them all the time, and we (power users) can disable what we do not want in settings (and we can have a preference with our own… preferences :P.
Is the same I do about Dark Theme for example: I activate it always by default.
Or with the Growl notifications: I hate them in bottom-left corner, I would prefer it in top-right… or bottom right… then I just change it :)

So +1 enhance configurability of the system, -100 to remove/hide features that are important specially for newbies.

cheers,
Esteban

Spotter gets me to classes & methods, the rest is command-click and short cuts.

Stef

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:42 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
HI

yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because
he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not protocol.
I had to create first a protocol.

I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that. Because Nautilus displays
the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template.
But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative.

Stef

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

> On 17 Jan 2016, at 18:24, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> well, I disagree :)
>
>> On 17 Jan 2016, at 17:47, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 17 Jan 2016, at 17:13, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 17/1/16 16:09, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :
>>>>> On 17 Jan 2016, at 15:52, Gabriel Cotelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe add a "New Method" button somewhere that changes the class definition with a method template ?
>>>> But only when it is needed.
>>>>
>>>> The overall Nautilus interface is becoming way too busy and distracting.
>>>
>>> Where?
>>> Because we removed features so I'm surprised and we wanted to remove more
>>> but people use them.
>>
>> Let see (this is my personal opinion, not necessarily the most beginner friendly view):
>>
>> <Screen Shot 2016-01-17 at 17.39.34.png>
>>
>> - I never use the history navigator, not the drop down, nor the arrows
>> - The previous location of variables was better (small icon)
>> - I never use the weird search/filter field with the pattern
>> - I never use scoped browsing
>> - I never use format as you read
>> - I never want line numbers
>> - I never want to know where the cursor is
>> - I only want critics when I say so, not all the time
>
> - I never use history navigator neither
> - I like variables where they are now :)
> - I use “weird” search/filter all the time
> - I use very often scoped browsing (I do a lot of refactors)
> - I do not use format as you read neither, but I like to have it there… can be useful.
> - line numbers I do not care, but that space will be useful for breakpoints/etc.
> - I need to know where cursor is, or at least I feel myself more confident when I know.
> - I not only want critics *always*: I also want critics always for everybody: I spotted many bugs I could made just for having them there… and in particular newbies can find them useful :)
>
>>
>> Again, this is my POV. And I definitively still want to have these features around, I just don't want to *see* them all the time.
>
> And these are mine… :P
> That’s why we should not take *our* convenience as a model (we can, after all modify a lot of that just with settings or ignoring them :P)
>
> In my own feedback, Nautilus (and the IDE in general) has become a lot more attractive to newcomers now, and the visual contamination (again, as far as I’ve been told by newbies and students, etc.) is not that. Quite the contrary they feel it as “reassuring” (because it resembles a bit more what they know from other IDEs).
>
> My idea is that newbies will welcome to see them all the time, and we (power users) can disable what we do not want in settings (and we can have a preference with our own… preferences :P.
> Is the same I do about Dark Theme for example: I activate it always by default.
> Or with the Growl notifications: I hate them in bottom-left corner, I would prefer it in top-right… or bottom right… then I just change it :)
>
> So +1 enhance configurability of the system, -100 to remove/hide features that are important specially for newbies.

Like I said, it is my POV, I don't want to convince anybody else, that is why I did not say anything earlier.

But, not all the things that I want are preferences now, ...

Pharo should not only cater to beginners, or try to mimic other bloated IDE's like Eclipse or IntelliJ. Pharo is yours also means it should fit proficient users.

> cheers,
> Esteban
>
>>
>> Spotter gets me to classes & methods, the rest is command-click and short cuts.
>>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:42 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> HI
>>>>>
>>>>> yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because
>>>>> he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not protocol.
>>>>> I had to create first a protocol.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that. Because Nautilus displays
>>>>> the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template.
>>>>> But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stef

Nicolai Hess-3-2

Re: Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

In reply to this post by stepharo

2016-01-17 12:42 GMT+01:00 stepharo <[hidden email]>:

HI

yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because
he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not protocol.
I had to create first a protocol.

But you can always select the "no messages" protocol entry to show up the

method template.

I think it was always like that.

I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that. Because Nautilus displays
the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template.
But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative.

Stef

stepharo

Re: Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

Le 17/1/16 19:08, Nicolai Hess a écrit :

2016-01-17 12:42 GMT+01:00 stepharo <[hidden email]>:

HI

yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because
he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not protocol.
I had to create first a protocol.

But you can always select the "no messages" protocol entry to show up the

method template.

I think it was always like that.

Ok sounds the good solution. I was busy with another student and not the time to check. I should have before
sending this mail.

I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that. Because Nautilus displays
the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template.
But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative.

Stef

Nicolai Hess-3-2

Re: Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

2016-01-18 19:33 GMT+01:00 stepharo <[hidden email]>:

Le 17/1/16 19:08, Nicolai Hess a écrit :

2016-01-17 12:42 GMT+01:00 stepharo <[hidden email]>:

HI

yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because
he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not protocol.
I had to create first a protocol.

But you can always select the "no messages" protocol entry to show up the

method template.

I think it was always like that.

Ok sounds the good solution. I was busy with another student and not the time to check. I should have before
sending this mail.

I think this is a problem with fast table. Since we use fast table, it often happens that the list item is selected and deselected on a single mouse click.

This makes it difficult to select a class, protocol or method.

I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that. Because Nautilus displays
the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template.
But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative.

Stef