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Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

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Janko Mivšek

Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

Hi Aiders,

Ken Causey just proposed me to stand up as a Squeak Web Team to maintain
main Squeak website http://www.squeak.org. And he even propose to switch
site to Aida! Well, nice surprise and flatter, I can't deny that :)

So, shall we go to that or not, that is the question now. It is
definitively a wonderful opportunity for Aida and Scribo to show all
strengths to Squeakers...

What do you think? Shall we go? I'd also like to see that someone else
stand up and join me in this web team ... ;)

JAnko

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

Nicolas Petton

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

I will definitely help you there Janko!

But we have to be carefull, we can't miss this opportunity, and be sure
that Scribo is ready for production.

Cheers!

Nico

Le vendredi 14 mars 2008 à 00:03 +0100, Janko Mivšek a écrit :

> Hi Aiders,
>
> Ken Causey just proposed me to stand up as a Squeak Web Team to maintain
> main Squeak website http://www.squeak.org. And he even propose to switch
> site to Aida! Well, nice surprise and flatter, I can't deny that :)
>
> So, shall we go to that or not, that is the question now. It is
> definitively a wonderful opportunity for Aida and Scribo to show all
> strengths to Squeakers...
>
> What do you think? Shall we go? I'd also like to see that someone else
> stand up and join me in this web team ... ;)
>
> JAnko
>
>

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

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Rob Rothwell

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

I wish I had the skills you guys do...I would love to help!

Maybe someday...

Rob

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Nicolas Petton <[hidden email]> wrote:

I will definitely help you there Janko!

But we have to be carefull, we can't miss this opportunity, and be sure
that Scribo is ready for production.

Cheers!

Nico

Le vendredi 14 mars 2008 à 00:03 +0100, Janko Mivšek a écrit :

> Hi Aiders,
>
> Ken Causey just proposed me to stand up as a Squeak Web Team to maintain
> main Squeak website http://www.squeak.org. And he even propose to switch
> site to Aida! Well, nice surprise and flatter, I can't deny that :)
>
> So, shall we go to that or not, that is the question now. It is
> definitively a wonderful opportunity for Aida and Scribo to show all
> strengths to Squeakers...
>
> What do you think? Shall we go? I'd also like to see that someone else
> stand up and join me in this web team ... ;)
>
> JAnko
>
>

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

--
The foolish reject what they see, not what they think; the wise reject what they think, not what they see. -- Huang Po

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

Janko Mivšek

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

Rob, you can also help on content part of the story!

Janko

Rob Rothwell wrote:

> I wish I had the skills you guys do...I would love to help!
>
> Maybe someday...
>
> Rob
>
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Nicolas Petton
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> I will definitely help you there Janko!
>
> But we have to be carefull, we can't miss this opportunity, and be sure
> that Scribo is ready for production.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Nico
>
>
> Le vendredi 14 mars 2008 à 00:03 +0100, Janko Mivšek a écrit :
> > Hi Aiders,
> >
> > Ken Causey just proposed me to stand up as a Squeak Web Team to
> maintain
> > main Squeak website http://www.squeak.org. And he even propose to
> switch
> > site to Aida! Well, nice surprise and flatter, I can't deny that :)
> >
> > So, shall we go to that or not, that is the question now. It is
> > definitively a wonderful opportunity for Aida and Scribo to show all
> > strengths to Squeakers...
> >
> > What do you think? Shall we go? I'd also like to see that someone
> else
> > stand up and join me in this web team ... ;)
> >
> > JAnko
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>
>
>
>
> --
> The foolish reject what they see, not what they think; the wise reject
> what they think, not what they see. -- Huang Po
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

Rob Rothwell

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

True...maybe I can run the all-new-soon-to-be-released "Aida for beginners" section of Squeak.org! That way you won't have to answer all my questions all over again!

You really have written I nice framework. I can't believe how much it has helped me learn Smalltalk in general in just a short time.

Rob

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:

Rob, you can also help on content part of the story!

Janko

Rob Rothwell wrote:
> I wish I had the skills you guys do...I would love to help!
>
> Maybe someday...
>
> Rob
>
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Nicolas Petton

> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> I will definitely help you there Janko!
>
> But we have to be carefull, we can't miss this opportunity, and be sure
> that Scribo is ready for production.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Nico
>
>
> Le vendredi 14 mars 2008 à 00:03 +0100, Janko Mivšek a écrit :
> > Hi Aiders,
> >
> > Ken Causey just proposed me to stand up as a Squeak Web Team to
> maintain
> > main Squeak website http://www.squeak.org. And he even propose to
> switch
> > site to Aida! Well, nice surprise and flatter, I can't deny that :)
> >
> > So, shall we go to that or not, that is the question now. It is
> > definitively a wonderful opportunity for Aida and Scribo to show all
> > strengths to Squeakers...
> >
> > What do you think? Shall we go? I'd also like to see that someone
> else
> > stand up and join me in this web team ... ;)
> >
> > JAnko
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list

> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>
>
>
>
> --
> The foolish reject what they see, not what they think; the wise reject
> what they think, not what they see. -- Huang Po
>
>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

--

Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

--
The foolish reject what they see, not what they think; the wise reject what they think, not what they see. -- Huang Po

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

Jimmie Houchin-3

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek

Janko Mivšek wrote:
> Rob, you can also help on content part of the story!
>
> Janko

I think this would be a great opportunity for Aida/Scribo. The more
Smalltalk websites that use Smalltalk and hopefully Aida the better the
mindshare for Aida. Count me in too.

I am hoping that I'll have some time soon to get working on some Aida
projects. Work has just taken all my time recently. But I am about to
clear some stuff off my plate.

Jimmie
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

Michael Rueger-6

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek

Janko Mivšek wrote:
> What do you think? Shall we go? I'd also like to see that someone else
> stand up and join me in this web team ... ;)

Well, and now you are in the middle of a tool war ;-)

Would it make sense to port/adapt the Smallwiki with external storage
version to Aida so we would have a Aida based Wiki? Or could Scribo be
used for that?

Michael

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

Damir Horvat-2

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek

You got my vote.

I'd like to help, but you know my knowledge...

Janko Mivšek wrote:

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

Nicholas Moore

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek

I would like to help but am not sure how? (with the usual reservations about time and ignorance of Squeak (maybe it will motivate me to learn!!?)).
N

Nicholas

Janko Mivšek wrote:

Hi Aiders,

Ken Causey just proposed me to stand up as a Squeak Web Team to maintain 
main Squeak website http://www.squeak.org. And he even propose to switch 
site to Aida! Well, nice surprise and flatter, I can't deny that :)

So, shall we go to that or not, that is the question now. It is 
definitively a wonderful opportunity for Aida and Scribo to show all 
strengths to Squeakers...

What do you think? Shall we go? I'd also like to see that someone else 
stand up and join me in this web team ... ;)

JAnko

--
NJM TSR-i

Nicholas J Moore

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

Rob Rothwell

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Nicholas Moore <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would like to help but am not sure how? (with the usual reservations about time and ignorance of Squeak (maybe it will motivate me to learn!!?)).
N

Nicholas

Do you use VisualWorks mostly? I like a lot of what I see in VisualWorks, but I am doing a proof-of-concept project for a hospital that we WILL use, but we are...cheap!

Therefore, with Squeak, the price was right!

VisualWorks seems a bit zippier, though, and I really like some of the add-on packages like tabbed browsing, and the ability to dive with the inspector. Not to mention native database drivers and better dll support. Oh well, maybe next year!

Anyway, I was wondering...if I was properly motivated to do so, do you think that "real world" [Aida] examples would be benificial? Maybe with a "business" slant to it? If the Ruby'ers can do it, why can't we?

Maybe in a screencast format with associated text that you could copy if you liked. If you did it right, I suppose you would have good content for a Sophie book, which would be an interesting kind of closure on a Squeak web site.

All I know is that after four years of trying to learn Smalltalk, things are finally starting to make sense because:

1. I am trying to solve a real problem that I care about.

2. Aida lets me create a view of my domain model in a very basic way.

3. Without #2, it's boring. People like to "see" an answer, and, let's face it, Morphic programming is hard!

Rob

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

Janko Mivšek

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

In reply to this post by Michael Rueger-6

Hi Michael,

Michael Rueger wrote:

>> What do you think? Shall we go? I'd also like to see that someone else
>> stand up and join me in this web team ... ;)

> Well, and now you are in the middle of a tool war ;-)

Well, that was my first fear as a reaction to Ken proposal. But that's a
life. Let we show what we are capable of delivering and don't take much
to the heart words from certain people.

> Would it make sense to port/adapt the Smallwiki with external storage
> version to Aida so we would have a Aida based Wiki? Or could Scribo be
> used for that?

Scribo already have a Wiki and on top of Wiki a website runs. Let me
show with class hierarchy of domain model for one page:

Object
VersionedObject
Document
WikiPage
SitePage
MySitePage

So it surely make sense to make a port of SmallWiki content to Scribo
and to make (or extend yours?) a converter for SmallWiki and also Swiki,
WikiWorks and other wikis, all those which are not supported anymore.

And I really think that Scribo Wikis could have a longer timespan that
above mentioned ones. By design, because of community, because of
commercial apps running on top of them. So porting to Scribo is
worthwhile, I'm sure.

Janko

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

Michael Rueger-6

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

Janko Mivšek wrote:

> Scribo already have a Wiki and on top of Wiki a website runs. Let me
> show with class hierarchy of domain model for one page:

Ah, great. Somehow I had Scribo confused with the Blog on top of it.

> So it surely make sense to make a port of SmallWiki content to Scribo
> and to make (or extend yours?) a converter for SmallWiki and also Swiki,
> WikiWorks and other wikis, all those which are not supported anymore.

OK, I will see that I can dig out the code and a copy of the content.
Although I think it was so large they had to send us a DVD back then...

Michael

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

garduino

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

2008/3/14, Michael Rueger <[hidden email]>:
> Janko Mivšek wrote:
>
> > Scribo already have a Wiki and on top of Wiki a website runs. Let me
> > show with class hierarchy of domain model for one page:
>
>
> Ah, great. Somehow I had Scribo confused with the Blog on top of it.
>
>

Sorry if my comment is a bit off-topic, but I'm really interested in
know more about Scribo.

I've a lot of "swikis" in production and never migrated to SW because
te complexity. May be I should consider Scribo, but must know
before....

Cheers.

--
Germán S. Arduino
http://www.arsol.biz
http://www.arsol.net
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

Nicolas Petton

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

Le samedi 15 mars 2008 à 08:01 -0300, Germán Arduino a écrit :

> 2008/3/14, Michael Rueger <[hidden email]>:
> > Janko Mivšek wrote:
> >
> > > Scribo already have a Wiki and on top of Wiki a website runs. Let me
> > > show with class hierarchy of domain model for one page:
> >
> >
> > Ah, great. Somehow I had Scribo confused with the Blog on top of it.
> >
> >
>
> Sorry if my comment is a bit off-topic, but I'm really interested in
> know more about Scribo.

Hi,

Scribo is not released yet, but we try to hurry and we'll probably
release it in some weeks, maybe a month. So, be patient :)

Anyway I can say a few words about it. Like Aida/Web, we try with Scribo
to keep things as simple as possible. By simple I mean easy to use, to
extend and develop with.

It has some nice features, like full blog support, gallery and
attachments, xml export (we are still working on this) and of course all
what Aida gives: RESTful urls, TinyMCE integration, users and group
management and so on.

You can take a look at my personal blog to see what Scribo-blog looks
like: http://nico.bioskop.fr

We'll also try to release preconfigured image with Aida/Web and
Aida/Scribo running, like Sophie one click experience. What can be
easier for the end user than this ? :)

Cheers!

Nico
--
Nicolas Petton
http://nico.bioskop.fr
___
ooooooo
OOOOOOOOO
|Smalltalk|
OOOOOOOOO
ooooooo
\ /
[|]
--------------------------------
Ma clé PGP est disponible ici :
http://nico.bioskop.fr/pgp-key.html

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

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garduino

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

Thanks by the comments.

Will wait then :)

2008/3/15, Nicolas Petton <[hidden email]>:

>
> Le samedi 15 mars 2008 à 08:01 -0300, Germán Arduino a écrit :
>
> > 2008/3/14, Michael Rueger <[hidden email]>:
> > > Janko Mivšek wrote:
> > >
> > > > Scribo already have a Wiki and on top of Wiki a website runs. Let me
> > > > show with class hierarchy of domain model for one page:
> > >
> > >
> > > Ah, great. Somehow I had Scribo confused with the Blog on top of it.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Sorry if my comment is a bit off-topic, but I'm really interested in
> > know more about Scribo.
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Scribo is not released yet, but we try to hurry and we'll probably
> release it in some weeks, maybe a month. So, be patient :)
>
> Anyway I can say a few words about it. Like Aida/Web, we try with Scribo
> to keep things as simple as possible. By simple I mean easy to use, to
> extend and develop with.
>
> It has some nice features, like full blog support, gallery and
> attachments, xml export (we are still working on this) and of course all
> what Aida gives: RESTful urls, TinyMCE integration, users and group
> management and so on.
>
> You can take a look at my personal blog to see what Scribo-blog looks
> like: http://nico.bioskop.fr
>
> We'll also try to release preconfigured image with Aida/Web and
> Aida/Scribo running, like Sophie one click experience. What can be
> easier for the end user than this ? :)
>
> Cheers!
>
> Nico
> --
> Nicolas Petton
> http://nico.bioskop.fr
> ___
> ooooooo
> OOOOOOOOO
> |Smalltalk|
> OOOOOOOOO
> ooooooo
> \ /
> [|]
> --------------------------------
> Ma clé PGP est disponible ici :
> http://nico.bioskop.fr/pgp-key.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

Janko Mivšek

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

Hi Germán,

But it could be that due to the recent squeak.org bid we will release
Squeak version sooner, at least beta. So stay tuned!

JAnko

Germán Arduino wrote:

> Thanks by the comments.
>
> Will wait then :)
>
>
>
> 2008/3/15, Nicolas Petton <[hidden email]>:
>> Le samedi 15 mars 2008 à 08:01 -0300, Germán Arduino a écrit :
>>
>>> 2008/3/14, Michael Rueger <[hidden email]>:
>> > > Janko Mivšek wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Scribo already have a Wiki and on top of Wiki a website runs. Let me
>> > > > show with class hierarchy of domain model for one page:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Ah, great. Somehow I had Scribo confused with the Blog on top of it.
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > Sorry if my comment is a bit off-topic, but I'm really interested in
>> > know more about Scribo.
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Scribo is not released yet, but we try to hurry and we'll probably
>> release it in some weeks, maybe a month. So, be patient :)
>>
>> Anyway I can say a few words about it. Like Aida/Web, we try with Scribo
>> to keep things as simple as possible. By simple I mean easy to use, to
>> extend and develop with.
>>
>> It has some nice features, like full blog support, gallery and
>> attachments, xml export (we are still working on this) and of course all
>> what Aida gives: RESTful urls, TinyMCE integration, users and group
>> management and so on.
>>
>> You can take a look at my personal blog to see what Scribo-blog looks
>> like: http://nico.bioskop.fr
>>
>> We'll also try to release preconfigured image with Aida/Web and
>> Aida/Scribo running, like Sophie one click experience. What can be
>> easier for the end user than this ? :)
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Nico
>> --
>> Nicolas Petton
>> http://nico.bioskop.fr
>> ___
>> ooooooo
>> OOOOOOOOO
>> |Smalltalk|
>> OOOOOOOOO
>> ooooooo
>> \ /
>> [|]
>> --------------------------------
>> Ma clé PGP est disponible ici :
>> http://nico.bioskop.fr/pgp-key.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Aida mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>

Nicholas Moore

Re: Shall we run www.squeak.org too?

In reply to this post by Rob Rothwell

Rob

Yes I use VW. I have looked at Squeak and like the idea of using it, but am put off by two things. First, I really do not like the UI, and then secondly, if I get past that I have to find the time, and that is not too easy at the moment.

I first taught myself Smalltalk in 1992, but then moved away from programming in 1999. I have never been able to understand why developers use any other language, it is just so elegant, powerful and fast. It seems to me that some of the fundamental principles, like late-binding, are how natural, complex adaptive systems work.

I think the main reason that Smalltalk is not better known is simply down to some terrible commercial and marketing decisions made in the mid-nineties, which allowed Java to get popular mindshare - that's my view anyway. People used to say that it was too slow, but in reality it was waiting for the hardware to catch up. It has always been popular in the banking world because you can get new products up and running so quickly.

In 1996/7 I worked on a huge Corba banking project in the US where we had dozens of Smalltalk images acting as service providers, sitting between C++ context managers and multiple mainframes. The images handled all the business logic and security as well as fulfilment switching. You could guarantee that whenever there were performance issues the Cobol and C++ guys pointed the finger at Smalltalk - but every time they were wrong. With enough memory and the right memory management policies, it was the images that were hanging around waiting for the other parts to work!

End of Smalltalk promo!! :-))

I think your point about 'real world' examples is good because it both shows the power of AIDA/Web and also helps newcomers get up to speed.

Glad it is starting to work for you, I believe that real learning always hurts the head in some way! and the best way to learn is working on something with a purpose, so your proof of concept sounds ideal.

Nicholas

Rob Rothwell wrote:

On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Nicholas Moore <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would like to help but am not sure how? (with the usual reservations about time and ignorance of Squeak (maybe it will motivate me to learn!!?)).
N

Nicholas

Do you use VisualWorks mostly? I like a lot of what I see in VisualWorks, but I am doing a proof-of-concept project for a hospital that we WILL use, but we are...cheap!

Therefore, with Squeak, the price was right!

VisualWorks seems a bit zippier, though, and I really like some of the add-on packages like tabbed browsing, and the ability to dive with the inspector. Not to mention native database drivers and better dll support. Oh well, maybe next year!

Anyway, I was wondering...if I was properly motivated to do so, do you think that "real world" [Aida] examples would be benificial? Maybe with a "business" slant to it? If the Ruby'ers can do it, why can't we?

Maybe in a screencast format with associated text that you could copy if you liked. If you did it right, I suppose you would have good content for a Sophie book, which would be an interesting kind of closure on a Squeak web site.

All I know is that after four years of trying to learn Smalltalk, things are finally starting to make sense because:

1. I am trying to solve a real problem that I care about.

2. Aida lets me create a view of my domain model in a very basic way.

3. Without #2, it's boring. People like to "see" an answer, and, let's face it, Morphic programming is hard!

Rob
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
  

--
NJM TSR-i

Nicholas J Moore

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida