Should I become a Seasider?

This post is about making a living as a web developer using Seaside.

I am an unemployed software developer in Calgary (1,000,000 people),
Alberta, Canada.
I have used Squeak for years but I have found no Smalltalk work in Calgary
and in fact know of only one small company in Calgary that uses Smalltalk.

I know very little about Seaside.  My impression is that websites
developed using
Seaside are somewhat slower than with other web development tools and that
Seaside uses more memory (I assume on the server side) than other web
development tools.  Nevertheless there are web developers using
Seaside successfully.
Are these impressions correct?

What I am wondering is should I learn Seaside and then attempt to sell my web
development services in Calgary?  My impression is that:
1)  No one in Calgary has ever heard of Seaside so selling my services
would be difficult.
2)  Since I should be able to develop web sites faster using Seaside I
should be able to
     offer my services at a discount and hopefully be able to find
business that way.  But
     since no one but myself (at least locally) would be able to
maintain the web sites,
     potential customers are going to be very shy.
Are these impressions correct?

Lets assume I decide to become a web developer (something I know
almost nothing about)
using Seaside as my competitive edge. To my knowledge I would be the
only Seaside
web developer in Calgary.

1)  How long (starting basically from scratch) is it going to take
before I am competent;
     or at least competent enough to seek clients?  Assume I am a
competent Squeak developer.

2)  Which version(s) of Smalltalk should I use?
     I know Squeak and have used Visualworks in the distant past.

3)  How screwed will my clients be if my ticker stops unexpectedly.
Can Seaside developers
     from outside Calgary pick up the slack for my hypothetical clients?

4)  Is there any areas within the web development would that I should
concentrate on or avoid?

5)  Is there any additional software/hardware that I would need other than my
     home computer (running Ubuntu) and Squeak/Seaside?
     My resources for investments is very limited.

Are there other questions that I should have asked?

Starting a business is generally a tough deal so please don't butter me up
with glowing reviews of Seaside.

Regards,

Ralph Boland
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I strongly advice against it. 
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well... I certainly wasn't expecting that kind of answer in a seaside mailing list. 
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Continuations have always been a minor part of seaside for me.

For me, the power of seaside is in persisted objects on the server side
that allow you to write a very minimal amount of code for querying and updating.

There is a great deal of value in learning seaside. Now, will that
help you make money
as an independent developer? I doubt it... but to say that the main
feature of Seaside
was continuations well... not for me. It isn't what drew me and it
never will be.

I suggest you watch Avi's Smalltalk Solutions talk once it goes up online as he
spends a decent amount of time talking about the strengths of Seaside as well.



On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Richard Durr
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> I know very little about Seaside.  My impression is that websites
> developed using
> Seaside are somewhat slower than with other web development tools and that
> Seaside uses more memory (I assume on the server side) than other web
> development tools.  Nevertheless there are web developers using
> Seaside successfully.
> Are these impressions correct?

That is too broad of a question. It really depends on what 'other
tools' you are comparing it to.
>
> What I am wondering is should I learn Seaside and then attempt to sell my web
> development services in Calgary?  My impression is that:
> 1)  No one in Calgary has ever heard of Seaside so selling my services
> would be difficult.

If they care about what it is built in. That is certainly true.

> 2)  Since I should be able to develop web sites faster using Seaside I
> should be able to
>     offer my services at a discount and hopefully be able to find
> business that way.  But
>     since no one but myself (at least locally) would be able to
> maintain the web sites,
>     potential customers are going to be very shy.
> Are these impressions correct?
>

Again, if they care about what it is built in yes.
As to faster... I have to say, I have used a ton of web frameworks
and nothing has come close to Seaside in terms of speed to develop
but that is more about the Smalltalk environment than anything that was
Seaside specific. That said, there are aspects of seaside that make
certain types of applications that would normally be really hard very trivial.


you know nothing about web development? i think that is going to be
what trips you up. not any seaside specific part.

you will need to know html, css, javascript etc.

that is going to take time.

you can get up to speed doing crap html,css and js very quickly.
but becoming competent will take you a while.

> 2)  Which version(s) of Smalltalk should I use?
>     I know Squeak and have used Visualworks in the distant past.
>

that depends on your application requirements.

glass, pharo and vw's web velocity would meet different needs you might have.

> 3)  How screwed will my clients be if my ticker stops unexpectedly.
> Can Seaside developers
>     from outside Calgary pick up the slack for my hypothetical clients?
>

Probably really screwed because they wouldnt know where to find a
seaside developer.
However, if you tell them how and explain why they are getting X
application cheaper
or for the same amount of money, in the same amount of time, with more features,
you have a possible selling point.

Finding someone to do Seaside dev for money isnt hard if you know
where to find them
AND they are probably going to be a competent programmer.

> 4)  Is there any areas within the web development would that I should
> concentrate on or avoid?
>

Concentrate on applications that involve lots of state. It is where
seaside really excels.

> 5)  Is there any additional software/hardware that I would need other than my
>     home computer (running Ubuntu) and Squeak/Seaside?
>     My resources for investments is very limited.
>

I would advise starting with Pharo not Squeak when playing around.
If you are doing lots of relational db stuff... look into web velocity.
My personal favorite environment by far is Gemstone's GLASS which
basically takes the 'pharo' persistent to image method and makes it scale.

=S=
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Hi Roland,

I guess, just like with all web soultions, starting a business with a
web application is a very very big task.
Especially in your case, when you are saying that you are not really
experienced with that kind of technology.

But there are in deed pros and cons in Seaside which might help you to
start quickly or, on the other hand to drive you crazy.

First some cons:
Seaside is lacking Smalltalk Developer Support. The Seaside framework
expects a lot of knowledge in HTML, CSS and Javascript.
The Seaside core development team focuses very much in supporting
different kinds of web web technologies in Seaside. But... there are no
approaches to set a layer on top of seaside that might help pure
Smalltalkers to start with Seaside web develpment.... at least no
Seaside core team members. There are some additional projects coming up
with very interesting Seaside addons but it will still take some time
until "everybody" will be able to implement full Seaside Smalltalk web
applications.

Seaside is evolving. From a business perspective view you will have to
think over a lot of your decisions you've made a few month ago from time
to time. First Consinuations are everything you need,... then you don't
necesarily need them,... Prototype/Scriptacoulus -> jQuery,... Squeak ->
Pharo, ... Seacharts -> jQueryWidgetBox,....

There's no real standard component library you can use just to proof
some of your concepts.

...

Second the pros:
Seaside fullfills/offers a lot of things you might be faced with
problems in other web frameworks. Security, Deployment, Code Repository,
mature IDE,...

Seaside is a very productive environment once you have taken the first
hurdle (base component library, base css layouts, base "templates").

Seaside/Smalltalk offers binding to many many other technologies and
makes it very easy to follow you costumers demands and infrastructure
changes.

The learning curve in Seaside/Smalltalk is very steep. Smalltalk =
prose. Certain base knowledge of web developement is already covered by
Seaside. You will quite early get proper results.


What I would do in your case.
Most startUps I know used Gemstone/Seaside to start their business. Here
you get a least rid of a lot of time that other web developersspend with
thier persistency frameworks and DB bindings.
I know some guys who successfully started business with seaside.

And keep one thing in mind! The average customer doesn't really care
what kind of technology you use,... he's interested in the results.
That's different with those really large firms that rely on expensive
hardware,... but even there are exceptions.

Here's a question for you:
"Why not Smalltalk?"

Good luck!
Sebastian




Am 08.04.2011 23:53, schrieb Ralph Boland:
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You can develop complex applications much more rapidly in Seaside than in most other frameworks.  Prototyping and iterating are very straightforward, and there's a good choice of relational or object databases to work with.

GLASS is an 'enterprise' framework, with a corresponding level of support, so this is one reassurance you would be able to provide to corporate customers.

In addition, as Sean already mentions, Smalltalk developers are not common, but their quality certainly makes up for it.  If someone had to pick up after you, a Smalltalk code base is quicker to come to grips with than, say, something made in Java... ;-)

Amir
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Hey,

entering another company (with development temas) with Seaside-only
knowledge gives you no win - other than personal confidence, that you
have investigated other technologies. They will expect, that you know
THEIR technology and not the other way around.

Entering as external solution provider into a company is a different
thing. Actually technology should not be any topic there in tose project
discussions (but perhaps you have to use/interact with other technology)
and you are free to use Seaside. But you are - in most of the cases -
not selling Seaside. You must sell solutions.

Even though you may hope, that you will be cheaper than others - I would
not be so sure about it.  We have seen customers here in Germany, who
would like to have a german company - but prices should be on a level on
eastern European countries. More or less impossible to do. And all those
companies out there using php or other stuff - THEY can use thousands of
already available libraries, for all of the most common tasks.

Therefore if you are facing projects with common tasks - how will you
beat those php programmers ???? If you are in projects with
not-so-common needs, you get more chances to have good prices.

And - as Sebastian answered - Seaside is a small component of WWW
development. You MUST know Javascript, you MUST know CSS - especially
superb knowledge of CSS may put your technical solution into an
nice-looking solution.

Then also consider environment technolgies like Apache to support your
solution

Marten



Am 08.04.2011 23:53, schrieb Ralph Boland:
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On 08 Apr 2011, at 23:53, Ralph Boland wrote:
> Starting a business is generally a tough deal so please don't butter me up
> with glowing reviews of Seaside.

Well, to make a long story short, we did exactly that 2 years ago: www.inceptive.be
Our two core projects are built using Seaside. One of them is already public: www.yesplan.be. The second one is going public by summer.

In one project, we got started explicitly because we were offering a Seaside-based solution. The customer had very bad experiences with traditional software development houses and was explicitly looking for an agile team using a dynamic language to do the job. So, it's fair to say that this was a unique opportunity. However, Seaside and Smalltalk did deliver! In only a single man-year of working hours (not counting the designer), we had produced a working application that other "established" development houses had failed to deliver. Whenever we show the functionality of the application to partnering software producers, they are amazed by the productivity we had gotten. Ah... and it should mention that one person in our team of three had never done any Seaside....

But, in our second Seaside project, the customers don't care at all what technology is used. They want a good product! And, in my opinion, that is true for many other potential projects we have down the pipeline. For us, Seaside and Smalltalk are powerful tools we can use to leverage a better price and better product in comparison to competitors. In the end, that is what customers want.

In other projects, we are exposed to .net, ios, objective-c, etc... and I generally miss a lot of the power and simplicity of Smalltalk. There is a lot of power in Smalltalk and the Smalltalk community when you look at Gemstone, Seaside, Pharo, Squeak, Visualworks, Cog, etc... !

There are (of course) occasions when I curse on Smalltalk in general: the lack of (or difficult) interoperability with non-Smalltalk based libraries and the relative small size of Smalltalk libraries is often the biggest hurdle. For every project we intend to do in Smalltalk, we have to carefully analyze the requirements and see if we can meet all of them in the Smalltalk environment. MS-Office interoperability, for example, is a nightmare.

Bottomline: Seaside and Smalltalk are currently our core technologies but not our *only* technologies. You cannot start a business on a single technology and doing business is more than technology.... there are many factors playing a role.

Cheers
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On 09 Apr 2011, at 02:37, Sebastian Heidbrink wrote:

> The Seaside framework expects a lot of knowledge in HTML, CSS and Javascript.

I'm sorry, but building web applications with *any* web development technology/framework/ will require you to know html, css and javascript.

Seaside does a very good job at integrating those in the Smalltalk code, btw.
But, of course, you are right that there is always plenty of room for improvement and there are areas where it needs to catch up too (but which framework is complete?).

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2011/4/8 Ralph Boland <[hidden email]>:
If you know almost nothing about web development and don't know
Seaside as well I'd advise against it. First you'll have to learn
HTML, CSS, JavaScript. Then you'll have to learn how to operate a web
application and a database.

My advice would be to look for an other job and get comfortable with
Seaside by dabbling with it in your free time.

Cheers
Philippe
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On 09 Apr 2011, at 09:35, Johan Brichau wrote:

Yesplan seems very impressive, Johan, this is really looking more and more like a super Success Story.
I absolutely agree with your points/analysis: technology does matter, as does the team, but a great product/solution is the final delivery.
Thanks for sharing all this!

Sven

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Hi Ralph,

there is little to add for me. The ones that wrote before me did a pretty decent job. I just want to add one dimension on decision making. You can read between the lines in most of the responses written so far. There is some distinction in what you call "web development". Nowadays I separate web development in "web presentation" and "web application". The difference I like to make is where the focus in development lies.

A solution for a "web presentation" site focusses mainly on the design. Here you will have a designer that designs "pages" in photoshop. A common way is to create templates that bring the photoshop design to the web. You concentrate on pages and usually you need a lot of markup in order to come close to the photoshop design. Seaside does not fit perfectly into this scenario. But I would assume that a lot of your customers just want a "web presentation".

A "web application" focusses more on the flow of actions between the pages. Thus the individual components a page is made of become more important. This is the area where seaside excels. You can realize rather complex application easily. On the other hand it complicates the handling of CSS. In a template scenario web designers often use things like absolute positioning and such to make the web page look closer to the photoshop design. In a component based scenario CSS should work more independent of the surrounding markup. I think this way will become more popular but a lot of web designers have problems in getting it right.

So to me the decision is where you are aiming at. If you don't have that much customers and therefor cannot chose which one you take it seems possible there will be a lot of customers of the "presentation" type. Taking seaside for this kind of development could cause you more pain than it gives you benefit. If you like to have customers from the "application" type than seaside can be a lot of fun. The decision to aim in that direction is indeed feasible. There are not that many web developing companies that are capable of doing complex web apps. And in my opinion this will grow.
I don't know what avi said and why javascript lowers the need for seaside. But in my opinion you can focus on the server in a relaxed fashion as long as the majority of browsers support ECMAScript-262 and not ECMAScript 5. One reason for this is that javascript does not have any security model and HTML has only cross domain security. So at the minimum you realize security issues over the server, etc.

hope that helps,

Norbert

Am 08.04.2011 um 23:53 schrieb Ralph Boland:

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Ralph,

There's little for me to add either, except for my personal experience launching a failed business in 2007. Two friends of mine and I set out to change the world, we just weren't sure how or why. :) I did the back end stuff: system administration, database design, and most of the programming. One of my friends did marketing and design, the other did more programming and video. One year later, we abandoned one of my friends, the next year I left voluntarily because I was tired of being broke all the time. I hope you'll let me share some of my "wisdom" with you.

If you just want to get employed quickly, you should learn Java. That's what I did, and now I have a job I dislike, but at least I'm caught up on the rent. We both know that learning a language is not a huge deal yet for some idiotic reason programmers are hired based on language knowledge. Playing this game is not terribly difficult. If you're not a web developer now and you get a job doing it with Java, you'll probably be regarded by other web developers as a "real programmer" higher on the ladder. So that's nice.

If you really do want to launch a business, it's going to suck. Be prepared to be broke for a lot longer. My business failed after two years; I think we were in the black for two months during that whole time. I have another friend whose web dev business languished for three or four years, but he stuck it out and makes a tidy living at it now. It's a personality thing, I think, more than anything.

My clients didn't really care what was going on in the back end. It's not totally true; they expected to hear about our Microsoft servers and got suspicious when we didn't have them. But when they defected to the competition, it wasn't because Microsoft was in the back end; it wasn't. It was because the interface was nicer. Every client we got was because our app or our site or something in our portfolio was prettier than the other ones that client looked at. If the client is giving you trouble about you being irreplaceable or your technology being obscure, they're probably just trying to get a discount. Otherwise they just need to be emotionally placated. If you quit or die, they're going to have to get someone else no matter what you're using. Do they want to go through a hundred Java developers to find the 1% that can do anything? I'd much rather build my stuff on an obscure but open platform where I can be almost certain that any programmer I hire is activated, excited about the project, and probably willing to work for less money. People who get into Smalltalk do it out of love. People who get into Java do it for the money. It's counter-intuitive, but being obscure makes hiring easier and better.

> I know very little about Seaside.  My impression is that websites
> developed using
> Seaside are somewhat slower than with other web development tools and that
> Seaside uses more memory (I assume on the server side) than other web
> development tools.  Nevertheless there are web developers using
> Seaside successfully.
> Are these impressions correct?

You know, it's true to a degree, but it's not all that important. The clients believe they're going to be the next Facebook, but they really aren't. Not even close. We had one almost-client that was building an auction site for heavy equipment. It never occurred to them that people were already buying and selling heavy equipment on eBay. They really felt like their system needed to be "web scale," but the truth is that there aren't going to be a million registrations on a site for buying and selling heavy equipment, let alone millions of requests per day or hour.

Seaside is slower than PHP. However, developing and debugging is faster, and the code is more reusable. Seaside is slower than PHP, but it's not slower than Drupal, Joomla or Magento. Seaside could certainly run laps around JSF, which is what we use at work. But my job is a perfect example of a place Seaside should be used: it's a small team of programmers (3) supporting a small group of users (<1000 world-wide). ICEfaces is at best 1/10th the speed of Seaside for this scenario, but it's irrelevant; my real problem is that JSF wastes vast quantities of developer time and makes easy things hard. Speed is relative, and not necessarily relevant.

> What I am wondering is should I learn Seaside and then attempt to sell my web
> development services in Calgary?  My impression is that:
> 1)  No one in Calgary has ever heard of Seaside so selling my services
> would be difficult.

Your premise is right, but I'm not sure your conclusion is. Most of your clients are going to have trouble with the distinction between an IP address and an email address. They don't expect to understand these things. They just need to know why they should choose you over your competition. I think you're focusing on the negative aspect here. You need to sell them on the positives rather than placate them on the negatives. Your competition is going to be using PHP. You don't need to convince them that Seaside is right or PHP is wrong, you need to convince them that you're right for tangible reasons—tangible *to them*, the non-technical business people who make these decisions.

> 2)  Since I should be able to develop web sites faster using Seaside I
> should be able to
>     offer my services at a discount and hopefully be able to find
> business that way.  But
>     since no one but myself (at least locally) would be able to
> maintain the web sites,
>     potential customers are going to be very shy.
> Are these impressions correct?

I didn't have much luck being the low price leader. You're not competing with other web dev shops for the bottom end, you're competing with high schoolers, hobbyists and "my friend's nephew who's real good with computers." You can't win against them on price, because they don't know what their services are worth, they are eager to please and will work ridiculous hours and not ask hard questions and so forth.

If you're competing on price, you are by definition competing as a commodity. I wouldn't go down this road (again), but if you do, you will have to consider your own replaceability fairly high on the list of your customer's priorities. I find this both difficult and depressing.

In the two months I've been dabbling, I already feel competent enough to build the kinds of things I build for friends and as hobbies on other systems. In four years I never got that far with Haskell (their web frameworks are pretty young though). On the other hand, if you don't know HTML, CSS, Javascript, HTTP, etc., you have a much longer road ahead.

> 2)  Which version(s) of Smalltalk should I use?
>     I know Squeak and have used Visualworks in the distant past.

Use Pharo.

> 3)  How screwed will my clients be if my ticker stops unexpectedly.
> Can Seaside developers
>     from outside Calgary pick up the slack for my hypothetical clients?

I think this is mostly a function of how you write your code. You're here, so it's probably not that bad. On the other hand, if your clients aren't going to be willing to hire outside city, state or country, they're going to have a rough time. But in general, the more obscure the platform is, the more zealous the developers are, the less they're going to demand to do the work and the more they're going to like it and be productive, impassioned and involved. I think it's almost always a net win, but I haven't managed to convince a business person of this fact yet.

> 4)  Is there any areas within the web development would that I should
> concentrate on or avoid?

Absolutely concentrate the bulk of your effort into design and presentation. The prettier app wins, hands-down. Functionality is almost irrelevant to non-technical types, and on the bottom end maybe one out of fifty potential clients is going to look past the interface and ask questions about the backend. If I had to do it all over again I would concentrate more effort here.

> 5)  Is there any additional software/hardware that I would need other than my
>     home computer (running Ubuntu) and Squeak/Seaside?
>     My resources for investments is very limited.

Well, you're going to need a website. I recommend using a VPS; I spent $20/month on my business's. Avoid the cloud.

> Are there other questions that I should have asked?
>
> Starting a business is generally a tough deal so please don't butter me up
> with glowing reviews of Seaside.


Based on just the flavor of your email, I'm sensing that this is not a career direction you're particularly jazzed about. Are you sure this is what you want to do? I've heard there are people who make a lot of money in web development, but I haven't met those people in real life. I suspect they all live together in San Francisco in some sort of communal bubble. I'm not here for the money and I don't know anyone who is both here for the money and happy. Launching a business is a very tough deal; I don't think I have a second run in me. If you're seeing this primarily as a way out of unemployment, I'd consider some other options first.

—
Daniel Lyons

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plication". The difference I like to make is where the focus in
development lies.
>
> A solution for a "web presentation" site focusses mainly on the design. Here you will have a designer that designs "pages" in photoshop. A common way is to create templates that bring the photoshop design to the web. You concentrate on pages and usually you need a lot of markup in order to come close to the photoshop design. Seaside does not fit perfectly into this scenario. But I would assume that a lot of your customers just want a "web presentation".

Off topic here... but this method of doing presentational development
using photoshop has always struck me as the equivalent of using uml to
design you entire application ahead of time w/o any consideration of
the language platform etc.
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Hi Daniel--

     Wow, wonderfully frank comments. Thanks.


-C

--
Craig Latta
www.netjam.org/resume
+31  06 2757 7177
+ 1 415  287 3547



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I started using Seaside (Pharo Smalltalk) a couple years ago now with very little programming background. It was rather confusing at first since there's a lot going on in the images, but in the end, everything Pharo does is brilliant... makes for a far better programming environment and as stated in earlier posts, debugging, code reusability, etc.
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Am 09.04.2011 um 15:02 schrieb Sean Allen:

> plication". The difference I like to make is where the focus in
> development lies.
>>
>> A solution for a "web presentation" site focusses mainly on the design. Here you will have a designer that designs "pages" in photoshop. A common way is to create templates that bring the photoshop design to the web. You concentrate on pages and usually you need a lot of markup in order to come close to the photoshop design. Seaside does not fit perfectly into this scenario. But I would assume that a lot of your customers just want a "web presentation".
>
> Off topic here... but this method of doing presentational development
> using photoshop has always struck me as the equivalent of using uml to
> design you entire application ahead of time w/o any consideration of
> the language platform etc.

It works quite well if you have a couple of pages that have just links between them and not that much dynamism. It just does not work well if you cross the border towards applications. In this area designers are exactly like programmers. Programmers want to program and designers want to design. Both leads to heavy change rates.

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On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've found it leads to designs that are great for print and usually
sucks for the web especially as a photoshop file is not going to
represent the possibilities of different browsers and can't do any
dynamic elements of the page at all.
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