Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.

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Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.

LawsonEnglish
Hey all, I'm in one of my manic brainstorming moods and whilest I'm
working on a baby interface between Second Life and Squeak, it dawns on
me that there is a huge potential for evangelicalism on your part here:
One of hte myriad complains Second LIfe power users have is that the
build-in programming tools are extremely limited. There are numerous
options for plugins as with Eclipse and emacs (I believe) but they all
run as standalone tools with no easy integration with the 3D virtual
world experience, which is hte main reason why people bother to script
things in SL in the first place: they have interactive feedback with
potentialky thousands of other people.

The point being that seaside runs just fine on localhost and the builtin
SL browser works just fine with everything seaside I have tested. If
someone wanted to entice potentially 100,000 Second LIfe users to
install seaside, implementing a nice LSL scripting interface in a
seaside webpage, complete with syntax coloring, databases of scripts,
version control, etc etc, would go a long way toards convincing the
Second Life powerusers, at least, that seaside is a worthwhile install.

If/when I get my interface to the client-server packets proxy working,
one could see potential for many more elaborate uses for squeak/seaside
and Second LIfe.


(interop between SL and Cobalt/Croquet is left as an exercise for the
reader ;-))


Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to look
at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port something to
squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost promise you that
squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE factor. Such a project
is beyond me, personally due to my lack of formal education, etc., but
it should be a worthy project for anyone wishing to promote
seaside/smalltalk use.


Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate.

Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net
Saijanai Kuhn in Second Life









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Re: Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.

LawsonEnglish
Someone in Second Life gave me this link:
http://lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=AlternativeEditors

There's a lot more than I expected. Obviously there's a great deal of
interest in having alternative Second Life tools hand.

Another thought... I know that There's a Squeak-based tool that can
produce Second Life sculpties. If that were made a plugin
for webpages, and/or enhanced with more pro-level capabilities, that too
would almost certainl fly as an integrated Second LIfe tool.

Don't know how people would sell this stuff for profit, especially based
on Squeak, but there's sufficient interest in higher end tools
to keep some people coming back to SL as real world programmers.


Here's a little link for 3D tools as well:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Sculpted_Prims:_3d_Software_Guide... SL
is debating the move to mesh
based stuff as well as prims, so that's an obvious future direction
where seaside-based tools would have a distinct advantage, IMHO.


L.

Lawson English wrote:

> [...]
> Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to look
> at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port something to
> squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost promise you that
> squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE factor. Such a project
> is beyond me, personally due to my lack of formal education, etc., but
> it should be a worthy project for anyone wishing to promote
> seaside/smalltalk use.
>
>
> Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate.
>
> Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net
> Saijanai Kuhn in Second Life
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>  


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Re: Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.

Stéphane Ducasse
In reply to this post by LawsonEnglish

On Aug 12, 2009, at 2:39 AM, Lawson English wrote:

> Hey all, I'm in one of my manic brainstorming moods and whilest I'm
> working on a baby interface between Second Life and Squeak, it dawns  
> on
> me that there is a huge potential for evangelicalism on your part  
> here:
> One of hte myriad complains Second LIfe power users have is that the
> build-in programming tools are extremely limited. There are numerous
> options for plugins as with Eclipse and emacs (I believe) but they all
> run as standalone tools with no easy integration with the 3D virtual
> world experience, which is hte main reason why people bother to script
> things in SL in the first place: they have interactive feedback with
> potentialky thousands of other people.
>
> The point being that seaside runs just fine on localhost and the  
> builtin
> SL browser works just fine with everything seaside I have tested.

what do you mean by the previous sentence?

> If  someone wanted to entice potentially 100,000 Second LIfe users to
> install seaside, implementing a nice LSL scripting interface in a
> seaside webpage, complete with syntax coloring, databases of scripts,
> version control, etc etc, would go a long way toards convincing the
> Second Life powerusers, at least, that seaside is a worthwhile  
> install.
>
> If/when I get my interface to the client-server packets proxy working,
> one could see potential for many more elaborate uses for squeak/
> seaside
> and Second LIfe.

Keep us informed it looks exciting.

> (interop between SL and Cobalt/Croquet is left as an exercise for the
> reader ;-))

I thought Croquet was dead as an open-source project.

> Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to  
> look
> at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port something to
> squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost promise you that
> squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE factor. Such a  
> project
> is beyond me, personally due to my lack of formal education, etc., but
> it should be a worthy project for anyone wishing to promote
> seaside/smalltalk use.

May be this is a nice job for helvetia. Lukas?
mixing SL in Smalltalk :)

> Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate.
>
> Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net
> Saijanai Kuhn in Second Life
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project


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Croquet - was Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.

Schwab,Wilhelm K
Stef,

I don't dispute it, but what is this about Croquet being dead?

Bill




-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:22 AM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.


On Aug 12, 2009, at 2:39 AM, Lawson English wrote:

> Hey all, I'm in one of my manic brainstorming moods and whilest I'm
> working on a baby interface between Second Life and Squeak, it dawns
> on me that there is a huge potential for evangelicalism on your part
> here:
> One of hte myriad complains Second LIfe power users have is that the
> build-in programming tools are extremely limited. There are numerous
> options for plugins as with Eclipse and emacs (I believe) but they all
> run as standalone tools with no easy integration with the 3D virtual
> world experience, which is hte main reason why people bother to script
> things in SL in the first place: they have interactive feedback with
> potentialky thousands of other people.
>
> The point being that seaside runs just fine on localhost and the
> builtin SL browser works just fine with everything seaside I have
> tested.

what do you mean by the previous sentence?

> If  someone wanted to entice potentially 100,000 Second LIfe users to
> install seaside, implementing a nice LSL scripting interface in a
> seaside webpage, complete with syntax coloring, databases of scripts,
> version control, etc etc, would go a long way toards convincing the
> Second Life powerusers, at least, that seaside is a worthwhile
> install.
>
> If/when I get my interface to the client-server packets proxy working,
> one could see potential for many more elaborate uses for squeak/
> seaside and Second LIfe.

Keep us informed it looks exciting.

> (interop between SL and Cobalt/Croquet is left as an exercise for the
> reader ;-))

I thought Croquet was dead as an open-source project.

> Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to
> look at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port something
> to squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost promise you
> that squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE factor. Such a
> project is beyond me, personally due to my lack of formal education,
> etc., but it should be a worthy project for anyone wishing to promote
> seaside/smalltalk use.

May be this is a nice job for helvetia. Lukas?
mixing SL in Smalltalk :)

> Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate.
>
> Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net Saijanai Kuhn in Second
> Life
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project


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Re: Croquet - was Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.

Marcus Denker-3
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Stef,
>
> I don't dispute it, but what is this about Croquet being dead?
>

For one, the page

http://www.duke.edu/~julian/Cobalt/About.html you can read:
*Croquet is no longer under active development

And the http://opencroquet.org/ site seems to be not actively maintained.
Last news from 2008, all about cobalt. I don't see any that anyone
actually claims to be
a member of the consortium, either.

Not much happening in Cobalt, it seems. I actually wonder if they have
anyone on the team with advanced technical knowledge about the deep
inner working of Croquet or even just the Squeak parts.

All very strange.... I am happy that I am not involved in it or the
politics around all this.
Looks all very ugly to me.

       Marcus


> Bill
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse
> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:22 AM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.
>
>
> On Aug 12, 2009, at 2:39 AM, Lawson English wrote:
>
>> Hey all, I'm in one of my manic brainstorming moods and whilest I'm
>> working on a baby interface between Second Life and Squeak, it dawns
>> on me that there is a huge potential for evangelicalism on your part
>> here:
>> One of hte myriad complains Second LIfe power users have is that the
>> build-in programming tools are extremely limited. There are numerous
>> options for plugins as with Eclipse and emacs (I believe) but they all
>> run as standalone tools with no easy integration with the 3D virtual
>> world experience, which is hte main reason why people bother to script
>> things in SL in the first place: they have interactive feedback with
>> potentialky thousands of other people.
>>
>> The point being that seaside runs just fine on localhost and the
>> builtin SL browser works just fine with everything seaside I have
>> tested.
>
> what do you mean by the previous sentence?
>
>> If  someone wanted to entice potentially 100,000 Second LIfe users to
>> install seaside, implementing a nice LSL scripting interface in a
>> seaside webpage, complete with syntax coloring, databases of scripts,
>> version control, etc etc, would go a long way toards convincing the
>> Second Life powerusers, at least, that seaside is a worthwhile
>> install.
>>
>> If/when I get my interface to the client-server packets proxy working,
>> one could see potential for many more elaborate uses for squeak/
>> seaside and Second LIfe.
>
> Keep us informed it looks exciting.
>
>> (interop between SL and Cobalt/Croquet is left as an exercise for the
>> reader ;-))
>
> I thought Croquet was dead as an open-source project.
>
>> Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to
>> look at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port something
>> to squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost promise you
>> that squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE factor. Such a
>> project is beyond me, personally due to my lack of formal education,
>> etc., but it should be a worthy project for anyone wishing to promote
>> seaside/smalltalk use.
>
> May be this is a nice job for helvetia. Lukas?
> mixing SL in Smalltalk :)
>
>> Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate.
>>
>> Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net Saijanai Kuhn in Second
>> Life
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>



--
--
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http://www.marcusdenker.de

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Re: Croquet - was Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.

Schwab,Wilhelm K
Aside from

  http://www.duke.edu/~julian/Cobalt/Foundational_Technology_files/logo_smalltalk_med.png

which strikes me as surpising[*] coming from Smalltalkers, I do not see them running away from Smalltalk.  

Could it simply be that nobody wanted a 3D OS (Croquet), and that a conferencing tool (Qwaq) seemed viable?  I still think Croquet would have been more useful had the 3D rendering system been made more readily reusable, so that one could easily drop a 3D world into a windowed program vs. finding that "we're not in Kansas anymore."  Retained mode 3D can be a good thing.  Tweak was a mistake too.

So far at least, Cobalt appears to be delivering Squeak images, so perhaps this is not a huge slap in the face.  My big concern now is for the future of Cog.  Any ideas?  Eliot seems to be telling us we're going to have a nice Christmas, JIT wise.  Here's hoping he is correct.

Bill

[*] the capitalization is off and there are no connections with the "brand."  It is unusual, perhaps even arguably disrespectful to Smalltalk's origins.



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Denker
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:50 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Croquet - was Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Stef,
>
> I don't dispute it, but what is this about Croquet being dead?
>

For one, the page

http://www.duke.edu/~julian/Cobalt/About.html you can read:
*Croquet is no longer under active development

And the http://opencroquet.org/ site seems to be not actively maintained.
Last news from 2008, all about cobalt. I don't see any that anyone actually claims to be a member of the consortium, either.

Not much happening in Cobalt, it seems. I actually wonder if they have anyone on the team with advanced technical knowledge about the deep inner working of Croquet or even just the Squeak parts.

All very strange.... I am happy that I am not involved in it or the politics around all this.
Looks all very ugly to me.

       Marcus


> Bill
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Stéphane Ducasse
> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:22 AM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.
>
>
> On Aug 12, 2009, at 2:39 AM, Lawson English wrote:
>
>> Hey all, I'm in one of my manic brainstorming moods and whilest I'm
>> working on a baby interface between Second Life and Squeak, it dawns
>> on me that there is a huge potential for evangelicalism on your part
>> here:
>> One of hte myriad complains Second LIfe power users have is that the
>> build-in programming tools are extremely limited. There are numerous
>> options for plugins as with Eclipse and emacs (I believe) but they
>> all run as standalone tools with no easy integration with the 3D
>> virtual world experience, which is hte main reason why people bother
>> to script things in SL in the first place: they have interactive
>> feedback with potentialky thousands of other people.
>>
>> The point being that seaside runs just fine on localhost and the
>> builtin SL browser works just fine with everything seaside I have
>> tested.
>
> what do you mean by the previous sentence?
>
>> If  someone wanted to entice potentially 100,000 Second LIfe users to
>> install seaside, implementing a nice LSL scripting interface in a
>> seaside webpage, complete with syntax coloring, databases of scripts,
>> version control, etc etc, would go a long way toards convincing the
>> Second Life powerusers, at least, that seaside is a worthwhile
>> install.
>>
>> If/when I get my interface to the client-server packets proxy
>> working, one could see potential for many more elaborate uses for
>> squeak/ seaside and Second LIfe.
>
> Keep us informed it looks exciting.
>
>> (interop between SL and Cobalt/Croquet is left as an exercise for the
>> reader ;-))
>
> I thought Croquet was dead as an open-source project.
>
>> Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to
>> look at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port
>> something to squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost
>> promise you that squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE
>> factor. Such a project is beyond me, personally due to my lack of
>> formal education, etc., but it should be a worthy project for anyone
>> wishing to promote seaside/smalltalk use.
>
> May be this is a nice job for helvetia. Lukas?
> mixing SL in Smalltalk :)
>
>> Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate.
>>
>> Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net Saijanai Kuhn in Second
>> Life
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>



--
--
Marcus Denker  --  [hidden email]
http://www.marcusdenker.de

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Re: Croquet - was Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.

SergeStinckwich
There is almost no traffic on the croquet mailing-list (user+dev)
since months ...
There seems to be more activity in the OpenCobalt web site :
http://opencobalt.org/

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 5:00 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Aside from
>
>  http://www.duke.edu/~julian/Cobalt/Foundational_Technology_files/logo_smalltalk_med.png
>
> which strikes me as surpising[*] coming from Smalltalkers, I do not see them running away from Smalltalk.
>
> Could it simply be that nobody wanted a 3D OS (Croquet), and that a conferencing tool (Qwaq) seemed viable?  I still think Croquet would have been more useful had the 3D rendering system been made more readily reusable, so that one could easily drop a 3D world into a windowed program vs. finding that "we're not in Kansas anymore."  Retained mode 3D can be a good thing.  Tweak was a mistake too.
>
> So far at least, Cobalt appears to be delivering Squeak images, so perhaps this is not a huge slap in the face.  My big concern now is for the future of Cog.  Any ideas?  Eliot seems to be telling us we're going to have a nice Christmas, JIT wise.  Here's hoping he is correct.
>
> Bill
>
> [*] the capitalization is off and there are no connections with the "brand."  It is unusual, perhaps even arguably disrespectful to Smalltalk's origins.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Denker
> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:50 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Croquet - was Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.
>
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Stef,
>>
>> I don't dispute it, but what is this about Croquet being dead?
>>
>
> For one, the page
>
> http://www.duke.edu/~julian/Cobalt/About.html you can read:
> *Croquet is no longer under active development
>
> And the http://opencroquet.org/ site seems to be not actively maintained.
> Last news from 2008, all about cobalt. I don't see any that anyone actually claims to be a member of the consortium, either.
>
> Not much happening in Cobalt, it seems. I actually wonder if they have anyone on the team with advanced technical knowledge about the deep inner working of Croquet or even just the Squeak parts.
>
> All very strange.... I am happy that I am not involved in it or the politics around all this.
> Looks all very ugly to me.
>
>       Marcus
>
>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>> Stéphane Ducasse
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:22 AM
>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Sideways marketing of pharo, seaside, etc.
>>
>>
>> On Aug 12, 2009, at 2:39 AM, Lawson English wrote:
>>
>>> Hey all, I'm in one of my manic brainstorming moods and whilest I'm
>>> working on a baby interface between Second Life and Squeak, it dawns
>>> on me that there is a huge potential for evangelicalism on your part
>>> here:
>>> One of hte myriad complains Second LIfe power users have is that the
>>> build-in programming tools are extremely limited. There are numerous
>>> options for plugins as with Eclipse and emacs (I believe) but they
>>> all run as standalone tools with no easy integration with the 3D
>>> virtual world experience, which is hte main reason why people bother
>>> to script things in SL in the first place: they have interactive
>>> feedback with potentialky thousands of other people.
>>>
>>> The point being that seaside runs just fine on localhost and the
>>> builtin SL browser works just fine with everything seaside I have
>>> tested.
>>
>> what do you mean by the previous sentence?
>>
>>> If  someone wanted to entice potentially 100,000 Second LIfe users to
>>> install seaside, implementing a nice LSL scripting interface in a
>>> seaside webpage, complete with syntax coloring, databases of scripts,
>>> version control, etc etc, would go a long way toards convincing the
>>> Second Life powerusers, at least, that seaside is a worthwhile
>>> install.
>>>
>>> If/when I get my interface to the client-server packets proxy
>>> working, one could see potential for many more elaborate uses for
>>> squeak/ seaside and Second LIfe.
>>
>> Keep us informed it looks exciting.
>>
>>> (interop between SL and Cobalt/Croquet is left as an exercise for the
>>> reader ;-))
>>
>> I thought Croquet was dead as an open-source project.
>>
>>> Anyway, if someone with a talent for writing editor code wanted to
>>> look at the existing external LSL scripting editors and port
>>> something to squeak for use on a webpage in seaside, I can almost
>>> promise you that squeak/seaside useage would go up by a huge, HUGE
>>> factor. Such a project is beyond me, personally due to my lack of
>>> formal education, etc., but it should be a worthy project for anyone
>>> wishing to promote seaside/smalltalk use.
>>
>> May be this is a nice job for helvetia. Lukas?
>> mixing SL in Smalltalk :)
>>
>>> Feel free to ask any questions, privately if appropriate.
>>>
>>> Lawson English LEnglish5 (at) cox [dot] net Saijanai Kuhn in Second
>>> Life
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pharo-project mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Marcus Denker  --  [hidden email]
> http://www.marcusdenker.de
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>



--
Serge Stinckwich
UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam
Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]
http://doesnotunderstand.org/

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