Single threaded Pharo IDE?
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I just started to use Pharo 1.0. So please bear with me since I may not fully understand the full concept of the IDE. Sometimes the whole IDE freezes indefinitely. So questions: 1) Looks like evaluating anything from the Workspace freezes the whole UI for the time of execution. Is it a bug or a feature? 2) Sometimes executing something freezes the UI indefinitely. Is there a way to cancel the operation (other than restarting the image)? Strangely in my case the IDE froze on evaluating HTTPSocket httpGet: 'http://www.pharo-project.org/home' Thank you, Andrei _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Single threaded Pharo IDE?
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2010/5/10 Andrei Stebakov <[hidden email]>
Welcome ! we hope you enjoy ;) So questions: More or less. Pharo has a green thread implementation. I will tell you what I understand. Green threads means, there is only ONE OS thread, and then, internally (in Smalltalk) there exists their own threads, scheduler, priorities, etc. The UI is just a process that is running, with a certain priority. Go to the world menu, then "Tools" -> "Process Browser". There you will see all the current processes with their priorities. You can notice the UI process. So...whatever you do here, it will be done inside that process. If you do normal things, then yes, I guess the UI freezes. However, you way want to launch another thread to do what you want and with a lower priority than the UI. Do this test: open a workspace and a transcript. In the workspace, evaluate: [ 1000 timesRepeat: [Transcript show: 'mariano'; cr] ] forkAt: Processor userBackgroundPriority there, you will see that you are able to use the ide, while the block of writing to Transcript is working "at the same time". Here the most important message is forkAt: . fork just fork the block with the standard priority ("Processor activePriority"). If you want to specify the priority, you have to use forkAt: 2) Sometimes executing something freezes the UI indefinitely. Is there a way to cancel the operation (other than restarting the image)? Yes, Sockets are an example where sometimes they block the whole image. Are you behind a proxy ? do you have a timeout error after a while ? I have just tested and it also freezes for me in Mac OS. I have no idea. Maybe other can help. But yes, usually (sometimes it doesn't work) there is a combination of keys that send a system interruption. Check this links: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/899 http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1542 BTW Adrian, I think this deserves a FAQ entry as it has been asked several times. Cheers Mariano Thank you, _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Andrei Stebakov
2010/5/11 Andrei Stebakov <[hidden email]>:
> > > I just started to use Pharo 1.0. So please bear with me since I may not > fully understand the full concept of the IDE. Sometimes the whole IDE > freezes indefinitely. So questions: > 1) Looks like evaluating anything from the Workspace freezes the whole UI > for the time of execution. Is it a bug or a feature? all doits evaluated in UI process. So, this is a feature. And that's why UI process freezing, if you evaluating something lengthly. If you want to run your snippet of code in background, just wrap it with fork: [ ... do something... ] fork > 2) Sometimes executing something freezes the UI indefinitely. Is there a way > to cancel the operation (other than restarting the image)? > Strangely in my case the IDE froze on evaluating HTTPSocket httpGet: > 'http://www.pharo-project.org/home' > you can interrupt a currently running process by pressing Alt-. > Thank you, > Andrei > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Single threaded Pharo IDE?
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In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
2010/5/10 Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]>
But you must agree that it still looks fishy when your whole UI blocks when you execute something lengthy (like new package install)... Well, if the majority of Pharo users think that it's OK who am I to argue? ;)
Yes, the [ HTTPSocket httpGet: 'http://www.pharo-project.org/home'] forkAt: Processor userBackgroundPriority doesn't block the UI anymore... If it's the way to go, shouldn't we have a "special non-blocking" Workspace which does exactly this (or have an option to run your Workspace command with a background priority)?
If I execute HTTPSocket httpGet: 'http://www.pharo-project.org/home'. in a Workspace having a Transcript window open, I got a never-ending messages in the Transcript window like: "redirecting to http://www.cmsbox.com/errors/hostnotfound.html". Yes, I am behind a firewall, but other urls work with the same command.
Great! Alt-. works.
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Single threaded Pharo IDE?
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2010/5/11 Andrei Stebakov <[hidden email]>
I am not saying I like it. I was just trying to explain you just what I know. I would like also not to block the UI until certain situations, like installing packages. Maybe this can be done with Metacello ? I don't know the side effects this may have (modifying collections or things like that while the other one is accessing it). I mean, I don't know if the necessary semaphore structure is done.
Yes! I like very much the idea. We should think how to implement it (if possible). Because when you evaluate code, you just evaluate code, I don't know if you can know "from where" you evaluated. In addition, it would be interesting to see the side effects. But I admit I like the idea.
mmmmm I cc'ed Adrian that he may help you.
Ok...
excellent. Cheers Mariano
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Re: Single threaded Pharo IDE?
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In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote: 2010/5/11 Andrei Stebakov <[hidden email]>: It works too. I guess the only way to terminate the forked process is though the Process Browser (which has some unique name for that block like "[] in Semaphore>>critical" in this case). Is there a way to refresh the Process Browser window so that it shows the new processes (it only refreshes for me if I close and open it)?
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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On 11 May 2010, at 00:51, Andrei Stebakov wrote: > [ ... do something... ] fork > It works too. I guess the only way to terminate the forked process is though the Process Browser (which has some unique name for that block like "[] in Semaphore>>critical" in this case). Fork should return the process object, if I remember correctly. > Is there a way to refresh the Process Browser window so that it shows the new processes (it only refreshes for me if I close and open it)? In the context menu should be an option something like CMD+u. But that seems to be a bit buggy, I had trouble when I was experimenting with a lot of processes. Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525 _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Single threaded Pharo IDE?
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In reply to this post by Andrei Stebakov
Andrei
Having
do-its block the UI is a feature, especially since you can explicitly fork a new
(Smalltalk) process to do the work. What is **NOT** acceptable (and I fear
I will discover is "easy" to cause to happen) is for DNS and socket operations
that have been forked to block the main thread.
Dolphin has
a feature called overlapped calls that allow external functions to be executed
on a new OS thread specifically to avoid hanging the entire image. There
are restrictions and disclaimers even then, and the default behavior is to block
the UI.
Bill
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Andrei Stebakov Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 5:31 PM To: [hidden email] Cc: Adrian Lienhard Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Single threaded Pharo IDE? 2010/5/10 Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]>
But you must agree that it still looks fishy when your whole UI blocks when
you execute something lengthy (like new package install)...
Well, if the majority of Pharo users think that it's OK who am I to argue? ;)
Yes, the [ HTTPSocket httpGet: 'http://www.pharo-project.org/home']
forkAt: Processor userBackgroundPriority doesn't block the UI anymore...
If it's the way to go, shouldn't we have a "special non-blocking" Workspace
which does exactly this (or have an option to run your Workspace command with a
background priority)?
If I execute HTTPSocket httpGet: 'http://www.pharo-project.org/home'. in a Workspace having a Transcript window open, I got a never-ending messages in the Transcript window like: "redirecting to http://www.cmsbox.com/errors/hostnotfound.html". Yes, I am behind a firewall, but other urls work with the same command.
Great! Alt-. works.
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Single threaded Pharo IDE?
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In reply to this post by Andrei Stebakov
You can keep
the forked process and later send #terminate to it.
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Andrei Stebakov Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 5:52 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Single threaded Pharo IDE? On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote: 2010/5/11 Andrei Stebakov <[hidden email]>: It works too. I guess the only way to terminate the forked process is
though the Process Browser (which has some unique name for that block like "[]
in Semaphore>>critical" in this case).
Is there a way to refresh the Process Browser window so that it shows the new processes (it only refreshes for me if I close and open it)?
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
2010/5/11 Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]>:
> Andrei > Having do-its block the UI is a feature, especially since you can explicitly > fork a new (Smalltalk) process to do the work. What is **NOT** acceptable > (and I fear I will discover is "easy" to cause to happen) is for DNS and > socket operations that have been forked to block the main thread. > someone still has to do that for you, i.e. wait for a completion of blocking operation. > Dolphin has a feature called overlapped calls that allow external functions > to be executed on a new OS thread specifically to avoid hanging the entire > image. There are restrictions and disclaimers even then, and the default > behavior is to block the UI. > Btw, its good that you mentioned this feature. Given that i have a full control, what happens with NativeBoost, i could create a native thread to serve for handling such 'overlapped' calls, and at image side, it will just put a process, which made a call into a waitable state, while other processes could still continue to run. > Bill > > ________________________________ > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Andrei > Stebakov > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 5:31 PM > To: [hidden email] > Cc: Adrian Lienhard > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Single threaded Pharo IDE? > > > > 2010/5/10 Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]> >> >> >> 2010/5/10 Andrei Stebakov <[hidden email]> >>> >>> >>> I just started to use Pharo 1.0. So please bear with me since I may not >>> fully understand the full concept of the IDE. Sometimes the whole IDE >>> freezes indefinitely. >> >> Welcome ! we hope you enjoy ;) >> >>> >>> So questions: >>> 1) Looks like evaluating anything from the Workspace freezes the whole UI >>> for the time of execution. Is it a bug or a feature? >> >> More or less. Pharo has a green thread implementation. I will tell you >> what I understand. Green threads means, there is only ONE OS thread, and >> then, internally (in Smalltalk) there exists their own threads, scheduler, >> priorities, etc. The UI is just a process that is running, with a certain >> priority. Go to the world menu, then "Tools" -> "Process Browser". There you >> will see all the current processes with their priorities. You can notice the >> UI process. >> > But you must agree that it still looks fishy when your whole UI blocks when > you execute something lengthy (like new package install)... > Well, if the majority of Pharo users think that it's OK who am I to argue? > ;) > > >> So...whatever you do here, it will be done inside that process. If you do >> normal things, then yes, I guess the UI freezes. However, you way want to >> launch another thread to do what you want and with a lower priority than the >> UI. >> >> Do this test: open a workspace and a transcript. In the workspace, >> evaluate: >> >> [ 1000 timesRepeat: [Transcript show: 'mariano'; cr] ] forkAt: Processor >> userBackgroundPriority >> >> there, you will see that you are able to use the ide, while the block of >> writing to Transcript is working "at the same time". >> >> Here the most important message is forkAt: . fork just fork the block >> with the standard priority ("Processor activePriority"). If you want to >> specify the priority, you have to use forkAt: > > Yes, the [ HTTPSocket httpGet: 'http://www.pharo-project.org/home'] forkAt: > Processor userBackgroundPriority doesn't block the UI anymore... > If it's the way to go, shouldn't we have a "special non-blocking" Workspace > which does exactly this (or have an option to run your Workspace command > with a background priority)? > >> >> >>> >>> 2) Sometimes executing something freezes the UI indefinitely. Is there a >>> way to cancel the operation (other than restarting the image)? >>> Strangely in my case the IDE froze on evaluating HTTPSocket httpGet: >>> 'http://www.pharo-project.org/home' >>> >> >> Yes, Sockets are an example where sometimes they block the whole image. >> Are you behind a proxy ? do you have a timeout error after a while ? >> I have just tested and it also freezes for me in Mac OS. I have no idea. >> Maybe other can help. > > If I execute HTTPSocket httpGet: 'http://www.pharo-project.org/home'. in a > Workspace having a Transcript window open, I got a never-ending messages in > the Transcript window like: > "redirecting to http://www.cmsbox.com/errors/hostnotfound.html". > Yes, I am behind a firewall, but other urls work with the same command. > > >> >> But yes, usually (sometimes it doesn't work) there is a combination of >> keys that send a system interruption. Check this links: >> >> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/899 >> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1542 >> > Great! Alt-. works. >> >> BTW Adrian, I think this deserves a FAQ entry as it has been asked several >> times. >> >> Cheers >> >> Mariano >> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> Andrei >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Re: Single threaded Pharo IDE?
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Sig,
If you give us "overlapped calls," we'll make a statue of you. I'll bring the chissels :) On sockets, I'm not terribly worried about the blocking part: what I don't want is for the whole image to go under because of mis-typed URL or something. In short, I'm worried about too much blocking, not the absense of it. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Igor Stasenko Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 6:21 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Single threaded Pharo IDE? 2010/5/11 Schwab,Wilhelm K <[hidden email]>: > Andrei > Having do-its block the UI is a feature, especially since you can > explicitly fork a new (Smalltalk) process to do the work. What is > **NOT** acceptable (and I fear I will discover is "easy" to cause to > happen) is for DNS and socket operations that have been forked to block the main thread. > someone still has to do that for you, i.e. wait for a completion of blocking operation. > Dolphin has a feature called overlapped calls that allow external > functions to be executed on a new OS thread specifically to avoid > hanging the entire image. There are restrictions and disclaimers even > then, and the default behavior is to block the UI. > Btw, its good that you mentioned this feature. Given that i have a full control, what happens with NativeBoost, i could create a native thread to serve for handling such 'overlapped' calls, and at image side, it will just put a process, which made a call into a waitable state, while other processes could still continue to run. > Bill > > ________________________________ > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > Andrei Stebakov > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 5:31 PM > To: [hidden email] > Cc: Adrian Lienhard > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Single threaded Pharo IDE? > > > > 2010/5/10 Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]> >> >> >> 2010/5/10 Andrei Stebakov <[hidden email]> >>> >>> >>> I just started to use Pharo 1.0. So please bear with me since I may >>> not fully understand the full concept of the IDE. Sometimes the >>> whole IDE freezes indefinitely. >> >> Welcome ! we hope you enjoy ;) >> >>> >>> So questions: >>> 1) Looks like evaluating anything from the Workspace freezes the >>> whole UI for the time of execution. Is it a bug or a feature? >> >> More or less. Pharo has a green thread implementation. I will tell >> you what I understand. Green threads means, there is only ONE OS >> thread, and then, internally (in Smalltalk) there exists their own >> threads, scheduler, priorities, etc. The UI is just a process that is >> running, with a certain priority. Go to the world menu, then "Tools" >> -> "Process Browser". There you will see all the current processes >> with their priorities. You can notice the UI process. >> > But you must agree that it still looks fishy when your whole UI blocks > when you execute something lengthy (like new package install)... > Well, if the majority of Pharo users think that it's OK who am I to argue? > ;) > > >> So...whatever you do here, it will be done inside that process. If >> you do normal things, then yes, I guess the UI freezes. However, you >> way want to launch another thread to do what you want and with a >> lower priority than the UI. >> >> Do this test: open a workspace and a transcript. In the workspace, >> evaluate: >> >> [ 1000 timesRepeat: [Transcript show: 'mariano'; cr] ] forkAt: >> Processor userBackgroundPriority >> >> there, you will see that you are able to use the ide, while the block >> of writing to Transcript is working "at the same time". >> >> Here the most important message is forkAt: . fork just fork the >> block with the standard priority ("Processor activePriority"). If you >> want to specify the priority, you have to use forkAt: > > Yes, the [ HTTPSocket httpGet: 'http://www.pharo-project.org/home'] forkAt: > Processor userBackgroundPriority doesn't block the UI anymore... > If it's the way to go, shouldn't we have a "special non-blocking" > Workspace which does exactly this (or have an option to run your > Workspace command with a background priority)? > >> >> >>> >>> 2) Sometimes executing something freezes the UI indefinitely. Is >>> there a way to cancel the operation (other than restarting the image)? >>> Strangely in my case the IDE froze on evaluating HTTPSocket httpGet: >>> 'http://www.pharo-project.org/home' >>> >> >> Yes, Sockets are an example where sometimes they block the whole image. >> Are you behind a proxy ? do you have a timeout error after a while ? >> I have just tested and it also freezes for me in Mac OS. I have no idea. >> Maybe other can help. > > If I execute HTTPSocket httpGet: 'http://www.pharo-project.org/home'. > in a Workspace having a Transcript window open, I got a never-ending > messages in the Transcript window like: > "redirecting to http://www.cmsbox.com/errors/hostnotfound.html". > Yes, I am behind a firewall, but other urls work with the same command. > > >> >> But yes, usually (sometimes it doesn't work) there is a combination >> of keys that send a system interruption. Check this links: >> >> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/899 >> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1542 >> > Great! Alt-. works. >> >> BTW Adrian, I think this deserves a FAQ entry as it has been asked >> several times. >> >> Cheers >> >> Mariano >> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> Andrei >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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