Slack, fragmentation and design information

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
29 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pharo wiki

alistairgrant
Hi Stef,

On 13 February 2017 at 01:17, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote:
> remember that we have this
>
> http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com
>
> stef

But write access requires an account (according to
http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com/book/Contribute/ContributeToPharoBook).
I requested an account last year (10 May 2016 to pharo-dev)
and didn't get a response.

Cheers,
Alistair



> On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 23:22:11 +0100, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> I try to use StackOverflow documentation to document some Pharo stuff. It’s
> very limited, but it has all the collaborative stuff from StackOverflow, so
> somehow I believe there is less effort needed to manage permissions.
>
> Uko
>
> On 10 Feb 2017, at 21:14, [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I miss the Squeak wiki Pharo style.
>
> Phil
>
> Le 10 févr. 2017 19:06, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <[hidden email]> a
> écrit :
>>
>> 2017-02-10 14:59 GMT-03:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
>> > Mass adoption and hyper reduced friction to get people on board.
>> >
>> > For me: I have 10+ slack teams in my slack client and there is really no
>> > point in having more clients on the desktop.
>>
>> +1 to this. This is key.
>>
>> Maybe what we're missing is a simple wiki to collect the shared
>> knowledge, recipes, and other stuff.
>>
>>
>> Esteban A. Maringolo

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Slack, fragmentation and design information

Esteban A. Maringolo
In reply to this post by kilon.alios
2017-02-10 21:09 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>:

> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 1:52 AM [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Am still finding useful stuff on Squeak wiki, sorry.
>> The point of a Wiki is to capture discussions over a given topic and make
>> it grow into something more structured over time. Like original c2 wiki.

> I fail to see the problem here


It's not a problem, it's a dynamics thing. GitHub isn't the same, I
haven't seen big wikis hosted there for a long time. In the long run
Pareto appears, and only a fraction of the users create most of the
content, but it is still useful.

In my previous job we used Squeak's Swiki for years and then we
migrated it to Atlassian's Confluence (due to better user support),
and it is amazing how powerful and undervalued a wiki is.

If haven't used the c2 wiki or the squeak wiki then you haven't
experienced what it meant, at that time, to find everything there, or
expand articles with your own content. It was really useful, c2 still
is.

Wiki's value is like compound interest, you only perceive the benefits
in the mid to long term.

Regards,


Esteban A. Maringolo

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Slack, fragmentation and design information

alistairgrant
On 14 February 2017 at 02:39, Esteban A. Maringolo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ...
> In my previous job we used Squeak's Swiki for years and then we
> migrated it to Atlassian's Confluence (due to better user support),
> and it is amazing how powerful and undervalued a wiki is.
>
> Wiki's value is like compound interest, you only perceive the benefits
> in the mid to long term.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Esteban A. Maringolo
>

+1

I would add that we got the most benefit out of our wikis when one of
the developers volunteered to be something of a "librarian" and help
others structure and reference the information.

Cheers,
Alistair

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Slack, fragmentation and design information

kilon.alios
In reply to this post by Esteban A. Maringolo

It's not a problem, it's a dynamics thing. GitHub isn't the same, I
haven't seen big wikis hosted there for a long time. In the long run
Pareto appears, and only a fraction of the users create most of the
content, but it is still useful.


 There is a very good reason for this. The rise of Github pages made it more polished to display documentation to users. Not only it gives you the full power of html and js , it also works well with doc string documentation systems like Sphinx.

http://www.sphinx-doc.org/en/stable/

Both Squeak and Pharo lack such tools.

Personally I prefer Github pages and doc string system. I am not a fan of wiki. They end messy and very badly documented. Especially c2 is quite a mess, probably the worst wiki I have ever seen.

In the end however one uses what one find more suitable to the way he or she thinks.

But for me having the documentation inside the code instead of separately plus a nice polished github page to display it is the way I prefer to work for my projects.

For Pharo, Pillar, plus GitBooks is hard to beat

https://www.gitbook.com/book/kilon/ephestos/details



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Slack, fragmentation and design information

Stephan Eggermont-3
In reply to this post by Esteban A. Maringolo
On 13/02/17 16:39, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote:
> If haven't used the c2 wiki or the squeak wiki then you haven't
> experienced what it meant, at that time, to find everything there, or
> expand articles with your own content. It was really useful, c2 still
> is.

The squeak wiki is also still very valuable. Lot's of broken links,
but also lots of snippets of explanation of why things are as they
are. It was essential for getting my Morphic understanding together.

Stephan



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Slack, fragmentation and design information

Pierce Ng-3
In reply to this post by kilon.alios
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 11:51:23PM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
> wiki. They end messy and very badly documented. Especially c2 is quite a
> mess, probably the worst wiki I have ever seen.

To me the lack of organization is in the nature of a wiki. It's like a place to
be explored. Must be said C2's Smalltalk content is rather meh last I looked a
few years ago.

<obPharoContent> My personal wiki has ~800 pages. Already there are nooks and
crannies that I've not visited in a while. Naturally, Pharo is the tool I am
using to help me navigate.

Pierce

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Slack, fragmentation and design information

kilon.alios
The thing that annoy me the most with C2 is that almost each time I googled Smalltalk when I wasstill a beginner with Pharo and Smalltalk this came up often

http://wiki.c2.com/?WhyIsSmalltalkDead

But yes I agree, its nice to have a place to put information and never worry about it getting delete.

On the matter of Slack, my Discord bot , lighthouse has evolved to message the online chat with replies to the mailing list which gave a good look inside how chat bots work. Esteban made me admin in Slack so the next step is to have the bot connect to Slack and copy the Slack messages to Discord chat , which means you wont need a Slack plan, because Discord never deletes messages. This way we can use Discord as a backup for our Slack messages and the bot could also copy the messages to a file , I am considering SQLite which we support, so that we never lose the content.

Problem solved and it also solves the problem of fragmentation. The mailing list is already connected to Discord via my bot, Slack will also connect to discord via my bot and pretty much anything else can be brought into this hub so everyone can keep using Slack or whatever way he or she prefers to communicate without the fear of fragmentation.

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 1:07 PM Pierce Ng <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 11:51:23PM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
> wiki. They end messy and very badly documented. Especially c2 is quite a
> mess, probably the worst wiki I have ever seen.

To me the lack of organization is in the nature of a wiki. It's like a place to
be explored. Must be said C2's Smalltalk content is rather meh last I looked a
few years ago.

<obPharoContent> My personal wiki has ~800 pages. Already there are nooks and
crannies that I've not visited in a while. Naturally, Pharo is the tool I am
using to help me navigate.

Pierce

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pharo wiki

stepharong
In reply to this post by alistairgrant
Mariano should know the password I asked.

Stef

> Hi Stef,
>
> On 13 February 2017 at 01:17, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> remember that we have this
>>
>> http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com
>>
>> stef
>
> But write access requires an account (according to
> http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com/book/Contribute/ContributeToPharoBook).
> I requested an account last year (10 May 2016 to pharo-dev)
> and didn't get a response.
>
> Cheers,
> Alistair
>
>
>
>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 23:22:11 +0100, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I try to use StackOverflow documentation to document some Pharo stuff.  
>> It’s
>> very limited, but it has all the collaborative stuff from  
>> StackOverflow, so
>> somehow I believe there is less effort needed to manage permissions.
>>
>> Uko
>>
>> On 10 Feb 2017, at 21:14, [hidden email]
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I miss the Squeak wiki Pharo style.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Le 10 févr. 2017 19:06, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <[hidden email]> a
>> écrit :
>>>
>>> 2017-02-10 14:59 GMT-03:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
>>> > Mass adoption and hyper reduced friction to get people on board.
>>> >
>>> > For me: I have 10+ slack teams in my slack client and there is  
>>> really no
>>> > point in having more clients on the desktop.
>>>
>>> +1 to this. This is key.
>>>
>>> Maybe what we're missing is a simple wiki to collect the shared
>>> knowledge, recipes, and other stuff.
>>>
>>>
>>> Esteban A. Maringolo
>


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Pharo wiki

Stephane Ducasse-3
May be dale remember the password because mariano don't and my keychain neither. 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:09 PM, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote:
Mariano should know the password I asked.

Stef


Hi Stef,

On 13 February 2017 at 01:17, stepharong <[hidden email]> wrote:
remember that we have this

http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com

stef

But write access requires an account (according to
http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com/book/Contribute/ContributeToPharoBook).
I requested an account last year (10 May 2016 to pharo-dev)
and didn't get a response.

Cheers,
Alistair



On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 23:22:11 +0100, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]>
wrote:

I try to use StackOverflow documentation to document some Pharo stuff. It’s
very limited, but it has all the collaborative stuff from StackOverflow, so
somehow I believe there is less effort needed to manage permissions.

Uko

On 10 Feb 2017, at 21:14, [hidden email]
<[hidden email]> wrote:

I miss the Squeak wiki Pharo style.

Phil

Le 10 févr. 2017 19:06, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <[hidden email]> a
écrit :

2017-02-10 14:59 GMT-03:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
> Mass adoption and hyper reduced friction to get people on board.
>
> For me: I have 10+ slack teams in my slack client and there is really no
> point in having more clients on the desktop.

+1 to this. This is key.

Maybe what we're missing is a simple wiki to collect the shared
knowledge, recipes, and other stuff.


Esteban A. Maringolo



--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/


12