Smalltalk Impact
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Last week I attended an event at the The Metropolitan Museum of Art Media Lab. While networking, two educators told me that they use Scratch with their kids… not knowing I knew anything about it. They showed me some of their students' projects and were so proud and excited. They were also intrigued when I shared Scratch's lineage, connecting the dots back to the dynabook vision of computers as a metamedium to transform human thought. I talked about Smalltalk, and directed them to Phratch - and its ability to create tiles - as a bridge between tile-based and "full fledged" programming, for those students who yearn for more expressive power.
I thought you'd like to know that all of our work is rippling out in ways we can't imagine… Cheers, Sean
Cheers,
Sean |
Re: [squeak-dev] Smalltalk Impact
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That is very cool!
Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:squeak-dev- > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sean DeNigris > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 1:03 PM > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email] > Subject: [squeak-dev] Smalltalk Impact > > Last week I attended an event at the The Metropolitan Museum of Art Media > Lab. While networking, two educators told me that they use Scratch with their > kids. not knowing I knew anything about it. They showed me some of their > students' projects and were so proud and excited. They were also intrigued > when I shared Scratch's lineage, connecting the dots back to the dynabook > vision of computers as a metamedium to transform human thought. I talked > about Smalltalk, and directed them to Phratch - and its ability to create tiles - as > a bridge between tile-based and "full fledged" programming, for those students > who yearn for more expressive power. > > I thought you'd like to know that all of our work is rippling out in ways we can't > imagine. > > Cheers, > Sean |
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In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
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On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:38, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> wrote: > Scratch is very famous worldwide. A few days ago I heard about it in a > national radio show about sciences. > This is why Phratch & al are jewels, to keep the lineage to Smalltalk ;-) > No imagine how big the impact *could* have been if we would have done it right... > Thanks > > Hilaire > > Le 14/01/2014 19:02, Sean DeNigris a écrit : >> Last week I attended an event at the The Metropolitan Museum of Art Media Lab. While networking, two educators told me that they use Scratch with their kids… not knowing I knew anything about it. They showed me some of their students' projects and were so proud and excited. They were also intrigued when I shared Scratch's lineage, connecting the dots back to the dynabook vision of computers as a metamedium to transform human thought. I talked about Smalltalk, and directed them to Phratch - and its ability to create tiles - as a bridge between tile-based and "full fledged" programming, for those students who yearn for more expressive power. >> >> I thought you'd like to know that all of our work is rippling out in ways we can't imagine… >> >> Cheers, >> Sean >> > > > -- > Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu > > |
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On 15 Jan 2014, at 09:01, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> wrote: > Le 15/01/2014 08:17, Marcus Denker a écrit : >>> Scratch is very famous worldwide. A few days ago I heard about it in a >>>> national radio show about sciences. >>>> This is why Phratch & al are jewels, to keep the lineage to Smalltalk ;-) >>>> >> No imagine how big the impact *could* have been if we would have done it right... >> > > It doesn't matter, it belongs to the past, and each one has his/her own > share of it. Pharo is a nice attempt to fix it and to make an opensource > environment to develop portable Smalltalk application, step by step, > stone after stone. > > Btw, do you have a list of the right things? > To secure their own future. “We are not payed to work on Squeak”, that is what I got told… in a tone as if my questions was the dumbest question one could have asked. Marcus |
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On 15 Jan 2014, at 09:04, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> > Etoys should have contributed to Squeak when they had the resources. > To secure their own future. > > “We are not payed to work on Squeak”, that is what I got told… in a tone as > if my questions was the dumbest question one could have asked. > > In hindsight, I think that the more aggressive reaction I got, the more it was a sign of me actually being right, but I did not understand that back than… I just slowly and quietly despaired until I could not even sleep anymore at night. Marcus |
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On 1/15/14, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 15 Jan 2014, at 09:04, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> >> Etoys should have contributed to Squeak when they had the resources. >> To secure their own future. >> >> “We are not payed to work on Squeak”, that is what I got told… Probably correct at that time... >> in a tone >> as if my questions was the dumbest question one could have asked. >> >> > In hindsight, I think that the more aggressive reaction I got, the more it > was a sign of me actually being right, but I did not understand that back > than… Difference in philosophy and priorities. Many people assume you can build something new and well defined on an existing ground in spite of a lot of idiosyncrasies and inconsistencies. Just by wrapping and creating a DSL. But in Smalltalk the idiosyncrasies remain visible whereas in most cases you might hide them behind an API. > I just slowly and quietly despaired until I could not even sleep anymore at > night. And the history so far tells us that it is _a lot_ of clean up effort ..... Noteworthy however: Scratch is successful in spite of being built on a early version of Squeak. The situation of Etoys to the contrary is not so clear. A comparison needs to consider more factors than just the platform it is built on.... --Hannes |
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On 16 January 2014 21:15, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> wrote: Le 16/01/2014 12:55, H. Hirzel a écrit : This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the job, i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :)
When you want to build something which will stand for millennium, you call architect, when you want to build a beautiful facade to impress people who passing by, you call artist, couple porters and couple erectors :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. |
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On 16 January 2014 23:16, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > On 16 January 2014 21:15, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> > wrote: >> >> Le 16/01/2014 12:55, H. Hirzel a écrit : >> >> >>> “We are not payed to work on Squeak”, that is what I got told… >> > >> > Probably correct at that time... >> > This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the > job, > i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :) If I pay you to do X, and you spend all my money doing Y, you need a very good story explaining why I don't get what I paid for. Seen in hindsight, everything is obvious. At the time it might have been far from obvious. frank |
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On 17 Jan 2014, at 11:27, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote: > On 16 January 2014 23:16, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 16 January 2014 21:15, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> >> wrote: >>> >>> Le 16/01/2014 12:55, H. Hirzel a écrit : >>> >>>>>> “We are not payed to work on Squeak”, that is what I got told… >>>> >>>> Probably correct at that time... >>> >> This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the >> job, >> i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :) > > If I pay you to do X, and you spend all my money doing Y, you need a > very good story explaining why I don't get what I paid for. If I get paid to do X, based on an open-source platform that helps me tremendously, then it is only logical and ethical to give back and support that platform - it would even be in my own self interest. Big, hot US companies do this all the time for thousands of projects. > Seen in hindsight, everything is obvious. At the time it might have > been far from obvious. > > frank |
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On 17 January 2014 10:49, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 17 Jan 2014, at 11:27, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> On 16 January 2014 23:16, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 16 January 2014 21:15, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Le 16/01/2014 12:55, H. Hirzel a écrit : >>>> >>>>>>> “We are not payed to work on Squeak”, that is what I got told… >>>>> >>>>> Probably correct at that time... >>>> >>> This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the >>> job, >>> i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :) >> >> If I pay you to do X, and you spend all my money doing Y, you need a >> very good story explaining why I don't get what I paid for. > > If I get paid to do X, based on an open-source platform that helps me tremendously, then it is only logical and ethical to give back and support that platform - it would even be in my own self interest. > > Big, hot US companies do this all the time for thousands of projects. That is true of the entity paying to do the work. If you paid me to get features X, Y & Z done, and instead I did lots of (good!) work on other projects _not directly relevant to X, Y & Z_, I think you'd have every right to get angry with me. I'm _not_ suggesting that it's right for someone to completely ignore the libraries that they use. I am saying that there are multiple forces behind "we don't get paid to do X", and "this work doesn't help me deliver X" is perfectly legitimate. frank >> Seen in hindsight, everything is obvious. At the time it might have >> been far from obvious. >> >> frank > > |
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
2014/1/17 Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]>
> > >> This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the > >> job, > >> i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :) > > > > If I pay you to do X, and you spend all my money doing Y, you need a > > very good story explaining why I don't get what I paid for. > > If I get paid to do X, based on an open-source platform that helps me tremendously, then it is only logical and ethical to give back and support that platform - it would even be in my own self interest. This holds true as long as you deliver X. Some companies to delivery X build Y and Z, and open source Y & Z [1] Esteban A. Maringolo [1] E.g. http://square.github.io/ |
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
Am 17.01.2014 um 11:49 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]>: + [a high number] Norbert
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In reply to this post by hilaire
Hi guys,
Do not hesitate to speak about Phratch around you. I will continue to write documentation and to improve it. I hope also to have any help: feedback, documentation, translation, code...
Thank you for your help. Jannik 2014/1/14 Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> Scratch is very famous worldwide. A few days ago I heard about it in a ~~Jannik Laval~~ |
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In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
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On 17 Jan 2014, at 16:40, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> wrote: > Le 17/01/2014 00:16, Igor Stasenko a écrit : >> >>>>> “We are not payed to work on Squeak”, that is what I got told… >>> >>> Probably correct at that time... >> >> This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the >> job, >> i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :) > > Come on, there is not excuse in the experience Marcus was writing about. > It was not related to a third party corporation, but an organization > involved in Squeak since the begining, deciding to not collaborate with > Squeak maintainer of the time. Lets rest it… as people might guess, I am still sad about Squeak… lets say it like that: I *really* *really* believed in it (the whole thing, dynabook and all), and I still think one could have done much better than we have. And it’s not a problem that it failed: it is a problem hat it was hold back explicitly that makes me sad. How great could it have been! Just imagine a system that is improved, radically, over 20 years… every day a bit, every year a release, building always on top of a stable base created before... Marcus |
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In reply to this post by Frank Shearar-3
On 17 January 2014 12:24, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Now consider that you paid to do X.. but in order to do that, you must fix something (or complete the feature) in open-source project Y, which you using. So, it is directly relevant to your work. But at the end, you can choose to either share your fixes to Y with community, or just don't (or even worse, when people mention the same problem, keep saying "ah.. yeah.. that bug.. it was fixed many years ago in one of my private projects which i will never share").
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko. |
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
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> Lets rest it. as people might guess, I am still sad about Squeak. lets say it like > that: I *really* *really* believed in it (the whole thing, dynabook and all), and I > still think one could have done much better than we have. > > And it's not a problem that it failed: it is a problem hat it was hold back explicitly > that makes me sad. How great could it have been! > > Just imagine a system that is improved, radically, over 20 years. every day a bit, > every year a release, building always on top of a stable base created before... > > Marcus The Pharo fork made me sad too. I wonder sometime if I had put in more time if I could have helped settle the rift and keep the community together. There is a lot of good work going on with Pharo now so maybe the fork was a good thing but I do wish we could all be working on one code base instead. I'm sure I will get used to the split eventually. Ron |
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