Smalltalk Virtual Machine, StVM

There is a trend of making languages to run on Java Virtual Machine. But it still cannot run Smalltalk like Smalltalk on Smalltalk VM. Is it a possible goal?

How about running Java on the StVM so that Java can have the live environment and debugging capabilities like in full blown Smalltalk? How about doing the same for Python, Ruby, Lisp, ObjC, C#, etc?

Thanks in advanced for all you thoughts.

Aik-Siong Koh

>There is a trend of making languages to run on
> Java Virtual Machine.
>But it still cannot run Smalltalk like Smalltalk
> on Smalltalk VM. Is it a possible goal?

Yes. It is possible as a goal... in the context of
 development of execution environments that
 REQUIRE a VM to run.
In case of using java VM you also inherit the class
 based model where a class is a static unit stored
 somewhere (a file)... and formulations that fixes
 the dynamics of the system, making more rigid
 than smalltalk systems of the '90s (the arguments
 used to sell java in the '90s).

Another goal can be to run "without a vm"
 (a goal of another modern context of development).
I do NOT mean to generate native code nor an "idea"
 got from theory. I mean to run smalltalk on top
 or another dynamic execution environment with similar
 semantics. e.g. javascript.
The S8 (Smalltalk) execution environment run on top
 of javascript VMs on browsers, mobile, server, etc;
 without requiring a smalltalk vm (no bytecode set
 needed; it generate/use javascript code as binary
 code, and the GC is granted by javascript
 engine).

In this model of running smalltalk, we do not have, as
 a prerequisite for bussiness, a provider/mantainer
 of the VM. We consider the VM design a required/valid
 design to run Smalltalk in the early stages of
 smalltalk times ('80s to y2k). When the world changed
 to an open model of development, we can leave the
 bussiness model based on provider-client virtuous
 cycle, moving to a self-driven development cycle
 (more autonomous and atomic, where each person/company
 make their best to maintain/spread the execution
 of their systems in the platforms they need to run).

In this self-driven model of development with Smalltalk,
 it is valuable to have a context to do collaborative
 development (we call it social development with smalltalk).
We use the U8 service for social development with S8 [*].
The service is hosted at
  http://u8.smalltalking.net
There, you will find contributions to learn and make real
 development with smalltalk running on top of javascript
 execution engines (e.g. browsers, mobile devices using
 cordova or native, agile server systems based on node.js,
 systems running with two VMs, like s8+.net integration
 in the same system, modified V8 based systems, etc).

>How about running Java on the StVM so that Java
> can have the live environment and debugging capabilities
> like in full blown Smalltalk? How
> about doing the same for Python, Ruby, Lisp,
> ObjC, C#, etc?

We also use s8 in iOS for native app development.
We package an app with a s8 image that generate/implements
 objectiveC classes in runtime and in this case
 ALL the app is written in smalltalk.
We have the best of smalltalk and the native
 look&feel in iOS devices (iPhone and iPad).

>Thanks in advanced for all you thoughts.
>Aik-Siong Koh

Hope this long email can help to think smalltalk
 without the requirement of a VM and not as
 "another (dynamic) language".

Today, We run our smalltalk systems without paying
 the cost of maintaining a (custom) smalltalk VM.

all the best,
Ale.

[*] Something that it is IMPORTANT today to do real
 development with smalltalk is the number of frameworks
 and how fast/easy you plug a library/API to your system.
 The U8 library is really big we have a lot of frameworks
 implemented and tested, all MIT licensed and available to
 be linked dynamically (or statically) to your systems
 from the U8 service.

----- Original Message -----
From: "askoh" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 7:31 AM
Subject: [vwnc] Smalltalk Virtual Machine, StVM



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<DISCLAIMER>
The opinions expressed are solely mine! I am NOT SPEAKING for my employer here!
</DISCLAIMER>

What's the business model?
Java and .NET are by intention built (technically) and licensed (legally) to provide lock-in. Because these are closed environments they can optimize for their purposes - just like the Smalltalk vendors do. What additional value would a theoretical general VM offer? Portability is no value but a burden.

Don't let someone tell you that these issues magically go away just because something is deemed "open source". Also "open source" vendors are vendors. And they have to earn money. Usually also they make their living from lock-in. And, if the open source vendor finds something else more useful he will abandon the project and it will get stale. Therefore you can't rely on its availability and you have to secure your system by building internal knowledge about the open source technology. A significant burden as well. Just because Google builds V8 doesn't mean they will do so for ever. In my opinion if technologies like V8, JVM, Eclipse are predominantly supported by big companies like Google, Oracle, IBM they are not really open source but driven by those companies' interests.

Having said that I want to emphasize that I have deep respect for the mentality and philosophy of real FLOSS (i. e. GPL) projects where the reciprocal benefit is the core value. Whether this is a sustainable business model is a different question.

Just as some food for thought
Helge


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von askoh
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. Mai 2014 12:31
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: [vwnc] Smalltalk Virtual Machine, StVM

There is a trend of making languages to run on Java Virtual Machine. But it still cannot run Smalltalk like Smalltalk on Smalltalk VM. Is it a possible goal?

How about running Java on the StVM so that Java can have the live environment and debugging capabilities like in full blown Smalltalk? How about doing the same for Python, Ruby, Lisp, ObjC, C#, etc?

Thanks in advanced for all you thoughts.

Aik-Siong Koh



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Smalltalk/X used to be able to do this until Sun licensing made it cost prohibitive. ST/X allowed you to compile Smalltalk, C, and Java right in your Smalltalk IDE. It looked wonderful and ST/X was extremely fast. It has been done, and done well. Java support had ended for non-technical reasons.

Paul Baumann

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of askoh
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 06:31
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [vwnc] Smalltalk Virtual Machine, StVM

There is a trend of making languages to run on Java Virtual Machine. But it still cannot run Smalltalk like Smalltalk on Smalltalk VM. Is it a possible goal?

How about running Java on the StVM so that Java can have the live environment and debugging capabilities like in full blown Smalltalk? How about doing the same for Python, Ruby, Lisp, ObjC, C#, etc?

Thanks in advanced for all you thoughts.

Aik-Siong Koh



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This message may contain confidential information and is intended for specific recipients unless explicitly noted otherwise. If you have reason to believe you are not an intended recipient of this message, please delete it and notify the sender. This message may not represent the opinion of IntercontinentalExchange, Inc. (ICE), its subsidiaries or affiliates, and does not constitute a contract or guarantee. Unencrypted electronic mail is not secure and the recipient of this message is expected to provide safeguards from viruses and pursue alternate means of communication where privacy or a binding message is desired.

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Hi Paul,

On 14/05/14 20:11, Paul Baumann wrote:

> Smalltalk/X used to be able to do this until Sun licensing made it
> cost prohibitive. ST/X allowed you to compile Smalltalk, C, and Java
> right in your Smalltalk IDE. It looked wonderful and ST/X was
> extremely fast. It has been done, and done well. Java support had
> ended for non-technical reasons.
>

Java support in Smalltalk/X is still alive and kicking. Works fine with
Java 7. It also supports live coding ("the Smalltalk way") to
some extent. There are limits indeed, but I'm working hard to fix as
much as possible.

We're already using it for some libraries which has no Smalltalk
equivalent like JDI, Saxon, Apache POI, etc. We can even run Apache
Tomcat Servlet/JSP container on top of Smalltalk/X :-)

Cheer, Jan



* https://swing.fit.cvut.cz/projects/stx-libjava/wiki

* Marcel Hlopko, Jan Kurš, Jan Vraný, and Claus Gittinger.
On the integration of smalltalk and java ̇
In Science of Computer Programming: Methods of Software Design: Techniques
and Applications.
Elsevier, 2013.

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I'm glad to hear that Jan. My experience with ST/X is several years old. I remember it as a well done with excellent performance. Claus was very responsive to fixing the one portability issue that I'd encountered. It is a product that I'd like to have used more. Thank you for responding.

Paul Baumann


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jan Vrany
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 01:55
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Smalltalk Virtual Machine, StVM

Hi Paul,

On 14/05/14 20:11, Paul Baumann wrote:

> Smalltalk/X used to be able to do this until Sun licensing made it
> cost prohibitive. ST/X allowed you to compile Smalltalk, C, and Java
> right in your Smalltalk IDE. It looked wonderful and ST/X was
> extremely fast. It has been done, and done well. Java support had
> ended for non-technical reasons.
>

Java support in Smalltalk/X is still alive and kicking. Works fine with Java 7. It also supports live coding ("the Smalltalk way") to some extent. There are limits indeed, but I'm working hard to fix as much as possible.

We're already using it for some libraries which has no Smalltalk equivalent like JDI, Saxon, Apache POI, etc. We can even run Apache Tomcat Servlet/JSP container on top of Smalltalk/X :-)

Cheer, Jan



* https://swing.fit.cvut.cz/projects/stx-libjava/wiki

* Marcel Hlopko, Jan Kurš, Jan Vraný, and Claus Gittinger.
On the integration of smalltalk and java ̇ In Science of Computer Programming: Methods of Software Design: Techniques and Applications.
Elsevier, 2013.

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This message may contain confidential information and is intended for specific recipients unless explicitly noted otherwise. If you have reason to believe you are not an intended recipient of this message, please delete it and notify the sender. This message may not represent the opinion of IntercontinentalExchange, Inc. (ICE), its subsidiaries or affiliates, and does not constitute a contract or guarantee. Unencrypted electronic mail is not secure and the recipient of this message is expected to provide safeguards from viruses and pursue alternate means of communication where privacy or a binding message is desired.

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