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Smalltalk does have open source blog and content management systems; e.g. Pier CMS and AIDAscribo ... but a lot can be improved to make them attractive alternatives to the big Drupal (PHP) and Joomla (PHP) or even smaller ones like Radiant CMS (Ruby), Refinery CMS (Ruby), Django CMS (Python), etc
Smalltalk will get more exposure if it were easier (and cheaper) for people to host their own blog or website using a Smalltalk based Blog/CMS. Question is; what can be done to have more Smalltalkers use a Smalltalk based blog system and attract non-Smalltalkers to try a Smalltalk CMS? |
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I use Wiki server included in Mac OSX server.
It is more easier to make inter linked documents than with blogs. 2011. 3. 17., 저녁 6:59, Geert Claes 작성: > Smalltalk does have open source blog and content management systems; e.g. > http://www.piercms.com Pier CMS and http://www.aidaweb.si/scribo.html > AIDAscribo ... but a lot can be improved to make them attractive > alternatives to the big http://www.drupal.org Drupal (PHP) and > http://www.joomla.org Joomla (PHP) or even smaller ones like > http://radiantcms.org Radiant CMS (Ruby) , http://www.refinerycms.com > Refinery CMS (Ruby) , http://www.django-cms.org Django CMS (Python) , etc > > Smalltalk will get more exposure if it were easier (and cheaper) for people > to host their own blog or website using a Smalltalk based Blog/CMS. > > Question is; what can be done to have more Smalltalkers use a Smalltalk > based blog system and attract non-Smalltalkers to try a Smalltalk CMS? > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3384077.html > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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I don't think suggesting for people to get their own Mac OSX Server is going to be cheaper :)
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Regarding hosting prices, there are really cheap VPS solutions available. I've been successfully deploying apps in a VPSLink Xen slice at a cost of around 80$ a year (one slice per app), which is not much more than what many web hosting companies will charge you.
Something like that makes up for developing in a Smalltalk framework being expensive, and if the websites are simple enough, you can even run more than one in a single image. On the other hand, I still agree that a nice, free, end-user friendly CMS, as powerful and easy to use as Drupal would be great to have and would get lots of designers and web devs to use it over other more mainstream ones. Pier is very nice, but IMO no designer (or client) will like, for example, having to learn its markup language, they will ask you for an easy to use WYSIWYG editor, an easy to plug image gallery, forum, wiki, whatever.
A designer can very easily learn how to install a Drupal/Joomla! extension, but we can't ask him to learn how to embed a Javascript rich-text editor into a Pier application... even most of us will run into several problems when trying to do that.
I'm sure we mostly agree, but who does have the time to develop something as titanic as this? :( Bernat Romagosa.
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In reply to this post by Geert Claes
Hi Geert,
On 17. 03. 2011 10:59, Geert Claes wrote: > Smalltalk does have open source blog and content management systems; e.g. > http://www.piercms.com Pier CMS and http://www.aidaweb.si/scribo.html > AIDAscribo ... but a lot can be improved to make them attractive > alternatives to the big http://www.drupal.org Drupal (PHP) and > http://www.joomla.org Joomla (PHP) or even smaller ones like > http://radiantcms.org Radiant CMS (Ruby) , http://www.refinerycms.com > Refinery CMS (Ruby) , http://www.django-cms.org Django CMS (Python) , etc > > Smalltalk will get more exposure if it were easier (and cheaper) for people > to host their own blog or website using a Smalltalk based Blog/CMS. > > Question is; what can be done to have more Smalltalkers use a Smalltalk > based blog system and attract non-Smalltalkers to try a Smalltalk CMS? Time! Preparing a CMS to the state of broad usefulness needs a lot of development effort and specially a lot of a feeling for end user needs. Both are strongly lacking in Smalltalk community IMHO. Maybe a subquestion, which audience to start with, with CMS end users, CMS developers, CMS something-in-between? To prepare something for "dummies" like WordPress is certainly a lot of work... Janko > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3384077.html > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- Janko Mivšek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Geert Claes
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Geert Claes <[hidden email]> wrote: Smalltalk does have open source blog and content management systems; e.g. Thanks to the screencast made by Damien Cassou now I use Pier and it's quite fun and easy to manage for basic stuff.
The big problem with Pier is the terrible lack of documentation, recipes, how-to's...... no marketing, no communication with user. The public of a product like Pier is not advanced Smalltalk developers. Drupal can be managed and deployed freely by non-technical people. That's a key of success.
Laurent.
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When you say marketing what do you mean exactly because an application users want to use does its own marketing and than there is no need to do a hard sell :) |
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In reply to this post by laurent laffont
Having preconfigured amazon ec2 AMI with Pier correctly configured as
a blog would not hurt. And by correctly I mean really ready to go with persistence, backups, google analyitics. And few bullet proof tutorials how to adjust look and feel, i.e. where to poke what, and that it works even if one does not understand what he is doing much less can read Smalltalk code. Of course it would be also great to have clear documentation, which goes beyond to say that everything is a structure. But I am afraid it is really a lot of work. Davorin Rusevljan http://www.cloud208.com/ _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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I think people like to know how much it will cost them and I thought AWS is more a pay-as-you-use, in that case it would be nice to be able to give an idea how much it will cost per month. Being able to easily change the look-and-feel is certainly very important. How to use a web application - like a blog/cms - should be intuitive enough so no or minimum documentation is required (when tinckering with the internals this may be a different story) |
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In reply to this post by Geert Claes
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Geert Claes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > laurent laffont wrote: >> >> ... >> The big problem with Pier is the terrible lack of documentation, recipes, >> how-to's...... no marketing, no communication with user. >> ... >> > > When you say marketing what do you mean exactly because an application users > want to use does its own marketing and than there is no need to do a hard > sell :) Marketing is NOT "hard sell". Marketing is figuring out what customers want and removing the things preventing them from getting it. it is finding the people who ought to use a product and letting them know about it. Marketing often means fixing the documentation, the license, or something else non-technical. No product can succeed without marketing. None ever has. Sometimes the marketing was not done by the inventor. Sometimes it is hard to tell who is doing the marketing and just what they did. But marketing is crucial. One of the problems with Smalltalk now is that the good marketeers have left it. When I heard that Dave Thomas was retiring I stood up on the bus, which was full of Smalltalkers, and said that this was the passing of an era, and that someone else needed to step up or Smalltalk would falter. More Smalltalkers need to read marketing books like "The Tipping Point" and "Crossing the Chasm". This is a very important thread. Please don't say that marketing is unimportant. Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk community. -Ralph Johnson _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Ralph Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
+ 10 Laurent.
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In reply to this post by Ralph Johnson
Hi,
I absolutely agree with Ralph, one of the main problems with Smalltalk over the last twenty years has been the lack of marketing of its strengths (the arrival of Java was another one!). Steve Edwards (Frustrated ex-Smalltalker, ex-The-Object-People, now doing Java and Ruby.) On 17 March 2011 11:16, Ralph Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote: On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Geert Claes <[hidden email]> wrote: -- Steve Edwards Escala Ltd. [hidden email] _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Ralph Johnson
Don't get me wrong Ralph, that's exactly what I meant when I said when you have "an application users want to use" ... because this IS your market. If you miss this ball on this one you can have all the documentation, exposure, advertising and whatever in the world, it still wont make people want your application. I agree and this is where I am trying to help as well. It is extremely important but please beware that "marketing" is not something only "marketeers" do, everyone involved is participating in marketing, starting from application's requirements/features, look-and-feel, usability, quality, cost/license, documentation, support etc ... the whole shebang :) ps. I have actually read a couple of Malcolm's books ... Chris Anderson's Free is a good one too :) |
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In reply to this post by Ralph Johnson
At 12:16 17/03/2011, Ralph Johnson wrote:
Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk. Exact! And, in my experience, even when you have a unique and at least in theory widely applicable Smalltalk-based solution, its marketing implies often facing the lack of suitable Smalltalk marketing strategies in general, which overall makes your task really hard. Regards Reza Razavi http://adaptiveobjectmodel.com/blog/ http://www.afacms.com/blog/pontoon-app/ _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Steve Edwards
Dear Steve, Geert and Ralph,
I hope you will be coming to ESUG in Edinburgh: http://www.esug.org/Conferences/2011 1) The department in Edinburgh that are hosting us do research in CMS. This topic would be a natural one to workshop there. Can we turn this thread into a plan to progress this - maybe both in the preceeding weekend's Camp Smalltalk and in the conference? 2) Yes. I have used and ported Pier, and presented it to non-Smalltalkers, and I have noticed that very small how-to or clarification things could delay me and would undoubtedly affect a non-Smalltalk user. (Some of it was just order of presentation - the how-to's that a non-Smalltalker wants first are not too hard to find - if you're a Smalltalker and so can guess where to look.) It would be good to watch people starting to use Smalltalk's 'best-practice' web suite and see what's slowing them. Yours faithfully Niall Ross > Hi, > > I absolutely agree with Ralph, one of the main problems with Smalltalk > over the last twenty years > has been the lack of marketing of its strengths (the arrival of Java > was another one!). > > Steve Edwards > (Frustrated ex-Smalltalker, ex-The-Object-People, now doing Java and > Ruby.) > > > > > On 17 March 2011 11:16, Ralph Johnson <[hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Geert Claes > <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > > > laurent laffont wrote: > >> > >> ... > >> The big problem with Pier is the terrible lack of > documentation, recipes, > >> how-to's...... no marketing, no communication with user. > >> ... > >> > > > > When you say marketing what do you mean exactly because an > application users > > want to use does its own marketing and than there is no need to > do a hard > > sell :) > > Marketing is NOT "hard sell". Marketing is figuring out what > customers want and removing the things preventing them from getting > it. it is finding the people who ought to use a product and letting > them know about it. Marketing often means fixing the documentation, > the license, or something else non-technical. > > No product can succeed without marketing. None ever has. Sometimes > the marketing was not done by the inventor. Sometimes it is hard to > tell who is doing the marketing and just what they did. But marketing > is crucial. > > One of the problems with Smalltalk now is that the good marketeers > have left it. When I heard that Dave Thomas was retiring I stood up > on the bus, which was full of Smalltalkers, and said that this was the > passing of an era, and that someone else needed to step up or > Smalltalk would falter. More Smalltalkers need to read marketing > books like "The Tipping Point" and "Crossing the Chasm". > > This is a very important thread. Please don't say that marketing is > unimportant. Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk > community. > > -Ralph Johnson > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > > -- > Steve Edwards > Escala Ltd. > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > ______________________________________________________________________ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >[hidden email] >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Steve Edwards
Hi guys
Where were you? Where are your bogs, books, videos, and cool Smalltalk open source projects? I mean that this is easy to get frustrated but it is possible to do things: - I wrote Squeak by Example not for me but for newcomers - We are writing Pharo by example two for the same. - I wrote the Seaside book because it was important for other people (and because avi was not writing one) - we are pushing pharo because we want to create a good open-source smalltalk. I came to smalltalk in 1996 when everybody left and I decided to do something. Now this is not enough but I'm not frustrated and we are creating good energy. If people really want they can join and help or get frustrated. Stef _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by NiallRoss
> 2) Yes. I have used and ported Pier, and presented it to non-Smalltalkers, and I have noticed that very small how-to or clarification things could delay me and would undoubtedly affect a non-Smalltalk user. (Some of it was just order of presentation - the how-to's that a non-Smalltalker wants first are not too hard to find - if you're a Smalltalker and so can guess where to look.) It would be good to watch people starting to use Smalltalk's 'best-practice' web suite and see what's slowing them.
There is no need of how-to's for Pier for basic usage (e.g., editing pages, adding menus, doing internal links, adding users). It is wrong to think this is necessary. I have never read the documentation of SimpleCMS, simply there isn't and there is no need to. Alexandre > > >> Hi, >> >> I absolutely agree with Ralph, one of the main problems with Smalltalk over the last twenty years >> has been the lack of marketing of its strengths (the arrival of Java was another one!). >> >> Steve Edwards >> (Frustrated ex-Smalltalker, ex-The-Object-People, now doing Java and Ruby.) >> >> >> >> >> On 17 March 2011 11:16, Ralph Johnson <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Geert Claes >> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> > >> > laurent laffont wrote: >> >> >> >> ... >> >> The big problem with Pier is the terrible lack of >> documentation, recipes, >> >> how-to's...... no marketing, no communication with user. >> >> ... >> >> >> > >> > When you say marketing what do you mean exactly because an >> application users >> > want to use does its own marketing and than there is no need to >> do a hard >> > sell :) >> >> Marketing is NOT "hard sell". Marketing is figuring out what >> customers want and removing the things preventing them from getting >> it. it is finding the people who ought to use a product and letting >> them know about it. Marketing often means fixing the documentation, >> the license, or something else non-technical. >> >> No product can succeed without marketing. None ever has. Sometimes >> the marketing was not done by the inventor. Sometimes it is hard to >> tell who is doing the marketing and just what they did. But marketing >> is crucial. >> >> One of the problems with Smalltalk now is that the good marketeers >> have left it. When I heard that Dave Thomas was retiring I stood up >> on the bus, which was full of Smalltalkers, and said that this was the >> passing of an era, and that someone else needed to step up or >> Smalltalk would falter. More Smalltalkers need to read marketing >> books like "The Tipping Point" and "Crossing the Chasm". >> >> This is a very important thread. Please don't say that marketing is >> unimportant. Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk >> community. >> >> -Ralph Johnson >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Steve Edwards >> Escala Ltd. >> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. >> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Geert Claes
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Geert Claes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Not sure about this. Documentation, exposure and advertising attracts people. And among these people some will want to use what you have to offer.
I've just played a little with PharoCasts: - Claire made a skin so the site looks better - I've started a campain with google adwords (google offered me 80€ to try) results: more visits, more Flattr and several mails from newcommers in my inbox.
This is just a little experiment but it seems it works.
I agree. world.st is nice. We need to have more people writing blogs, tweet, screencasts .... it's not hard, it's not a lot of time. If people want Smalltalk to succeed, do a small thing every day.
IMHO everyone and everyday is actually more important than big project/application. Big project is the consequence. Laurent. ps. I have actually read a couple of Malcolm's books ... Chris Anderson's _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Alexandre Bergel-5
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
I started to use Pier after watching Damien's screencast. I've tried before but could not understand how to do => no courage to go further. May be I'm stupid, but I need them.
Laurent. It is wrong to think this is necessary. I have never read the documentation of SimpleCMS, simply there isn't and there is no need to. _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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> There is no need of how-to's for Pier for basic usage (e.g., editing pages, adding menus, doing internal links, adding users).
> > I started to use Pier after watching Damien's screencast. I've tried before but could not understand how to do => no courage to go further. May be I'm stupid, but I need them. I am not sure you need a better external documentation for Pier basic usage. But you surely need a better and more intuitive GUI. Just better marketing as Ralph would say. Alexandre > > > > It is wrong to think this is necessary. I have never read the documentation of SimpleCMS, simply there isn't and there is no need to. > > Alexandre > > > > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> I absolutely agree with Ralph, one of the main problems with Smalltalk over the last twenty years > >> has been the lack of marketing of its strengths (the arrival of Java was another one!). > >> > >> Steve Edwards > >> (Frustrated ex-Smalltalker, ex-The-Object-People, now doing Java and Ruby.) > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 17 March 2011 11:16, Ralph Johnson <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Geert Claes > >> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > >> > > >> > laurent laffont wrote: > >> >> > >> >> ... > >> >> The big problem with Pier is the terrible lack of > >> documentation, recipes, > >> >> how-to's...... no marketing, no communication with user. > >> >> ... > >> >> > >> > > >> > When you say marketing what do you mean exactly because an > >> application users > >> > want to use does its own marketing and than there is no need to > >> do a hard > >> > sell :) > >> > >> Marketing is NOT "hard sell". Marketing is figuring out what > >> customers want and removing the things preventing them from getting > >> it. it is finding the people who ought to use a product and letting > >> them know about it. Marketing often means fixing the documentation, > >> the license, or something else non-technical. > >> > >> No product can succeed without marketing. None ever has. Sometimes > >> the marketing was not done by the inventor. Sometimes it is hard to > >> tell who is doing the marketing and just what they did. But marketing > >> is crucial. > >> > >> One of the problems with Smalltalk now is that the good marketeers > >> have left it. When I heard that Dave Thomas was retiring I stood up > >> on the bus, which was full of Smalltalkers, and said that this was the > >> passing of an era, and that someone else needed to step up or > >> Smalltalk would falter. More Smalltalkers need to read marketing > >> books like "The Tipping Point" and "Crossing the Chasm". > >> > >> This is a very important thread. Please don't say that marketing is > >> unimportant. Marketing is crucial, and a weakness in the Smalltalk > >> community. > >> > >> -Ralph Johnson > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Esug-list mailing list > >> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Steve Edwards > >> Escala Ltd. > >> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > >> > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > >> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Esug-list mailing list > >> [hidden email] > >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >> > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |