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SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

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Noury Bouraqadi-2

SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

SmalltalkHub is slow, so don’t click too fast :-(

While I’m grateful to developers of SmalltalkHub and previously SqueakSource, I believe as a small community, we cannot afford developing everything by ourselves. We don’t have enough man-power. We can see the symptoms since SmalltalkHub is in beta stage since way too long...

It’s better to use some mainstream platform such as github.

We’ll we have support for it in Pharo 4?

It would be interesting also from the communication point of view to make the world a little bit more aware of Pharo.

Noury

kilon.alios

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

My personal opinion on Github and Pharo is that it already works great with Pharo. The workflow with filetree is exactly the same as other languages that gives the added advantage that you can use all the powerful tools you use with other languages for commiting to git and github. I have not experienced any kind of issue of problem using github with Pharo nor my experience has been any worse than other languages.

With the use of Baseline you dont even need git installed in your system to install any Pharo project that use git which is a feature I have not seen in other languages.

It should be also relative simple to extend ConfigurationBrowser to support github projects via baseline with no need to commit configurations to smalltalkhub.

Pharo is already very active in github, many people have ported their projects there including me.

Maybe StHub should support also being a portal to github , or uses github as its backend though I have no clue how much work that would involve. Personally I have completely abandoned smaltlalkhub for github because my experience was really bad and I was already very familiar with github.

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Noury Bouraqadi <[hidden email]> wrote:

SmalltalkHub is slow, so don’t click too fast :-(

While I’m grateful to developers of SmalltalkHub and previously SqueakSource, I believe as a small community, we cannot afford developing everything by ourselves. We don’t have enough man-power. We can see the symptoms since SmalltalkHub is in beta stage since way too long...

It’s better to use some mainstream platform such as github.
We’ll we have support for it in Pharo 4?

It would be interesting also from the communication point of view to make the world a little bit more aware of Pharo.

Noury

jannik laval

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

Hi Kilon,

Do you have any documentation on how to use github in Pharo ?

What should I install, how to use it ?

Thank you.

Jannik

2014-11-27 11:29 GMT+01:00 kilon alios <[hidden email]>:

My personal opinion on Github and Pharo is that it already works great with Pharo. The workflow with filetree is exactly the same as other languages that gives the added advantage that you can use all the powerful tools you use with other languages for commiting to git and github. I have not experienced any kind of issue of problem using github with Pharo nor my experience has been any worse than other languages.

With the use of Baseline you dont even need git installed in your system to install any Pharo project that use git which is a feature I have not seen in other languages.

It should be also relative simple to extend ConfigurationBrowser to support github projects via baseline with no need to commit configurations to smalltalkhub.

Pharo is already very active in github, many people have ported their projects there including me.

Maybe StHub should support also being a portal to github , or uses github as its backend though I have no clue how much work that would involve. Personally I have completely abandoned smaltlalkhub for github because my experience was really bad and I was already very familiar with github.

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Noury Bouraqadi <[hidden email]> wrote:
SmalltalkHub is slow, so don’t click too fast :-(

While I’m grateful to developers of SmalltalkHub and previously SqueakSource, I believe as a small community, we cannot afford developing everything by ourselves. We don’t have enough man-power. We can see the symptoms since SmalltalkHub is in beta stage since way too long...

It’s better to use some mainstream platform such as github.
We’ll we have support for it in Pharo 4?

It would be interesting also from the communication point of view to make the world a little bit more aware of Pharo.

Noury

~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

In reply to this post by Noury Bouraqadi-2

> On 27 Nov 2014, at 11:14, Noury Bouraqadi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> SmalltalkHub is slow, so don’t click too fast :-(
>
> While I’m grateful to developers of SmalltalkHub and previously SqueakSource, I believe as a small community, we cannot afford developing everything by ourselves. We don’t have enough man-power. We can see the symptoms since SmalltalkHub is in beta stage since way too long...
>
> It’s better to use some mainstream platform such as github.
> We’ll we have support for it in Pharo 4?
>
> It would be interesting also from the communication point of view to make the world a little bit more aware of Pharo.

I think it is important to have a serious online system written in Pharo and in daily use (you know, eat your own dog food).

There is also a difference between the system itself and the way it is deployed/managed.

Please do not underestimate how much work this is for something that is used so heavily, like StHub.

But yes, we can/should do better.

Sven

And like others said, you can start using git(hub) anytime you want, many people do. But be prepared to learn lots of new stuff. And you'll lose some in-image tools (a deal breaker for me).

kilon.alios

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

In reply to this post by jannik laval

You dont need anything installed to work with git , apart from git itself. The workflow is the same as with smalltalkhub + the standard workflow of git.

I am using filteree which is already included with Pharo. These are the steps from absolute scratch

1) Download git and install it

2) Create an account in Github

3) add a repository in github

4) open the terminal (git in windows comes with its own terminal, macos and linux have own terminals) you can also optionally create a folder for putting all your git projects inside

5) config git using the git config command to add your email

6) copy the adress of your github repo , its on the right side of your central page of your github repo it has a button next to it to copy it

7) paste the adress after the git clone command and hit enter to clone the repo to your local drive

8) Go to pharo , open monticello and add for you new package a repo , choose gitfilete

9) filetree with open a file browser dialog, navigate to the folder you clone your gihub repo and press open

10) click save as usual to save code , add a commit message, I also copy the commit message to add it also in the git commit

11) go back to the terminal and cd to your git folder of your project

12) I use git status to see which files the filetree has created , Packages have their own folders and so does each class, with also a folder for instance and class side. Each methods has its own file, additional files exist for metadata.

13) git add the package folders. A simple git add of a folder will add all subfolders and files included in the folder.

14) git commit -am "paste here the copied message from monticello, or add your own commit message"

15) git push

If you exclude step (8) and (9) the rest is normal git workflow

Thats for setting up from there on for committing you will repeat only steps (10) - (15).

There is also gitfiletree that automates this manual process but I like being in control to what is commited to my git repo. Gitfiletree has a chapter in Pharo For the Enterprise book.

Github has extensive documentation for git and github. Git website also has documentation that is easy to follow and expose how powerful git really is.

Its actually very simple and easy to do.

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:32 PM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Kilon,

Do you have any documentation on how to use github in Pharo ?
What should I install, how to use it ?

Thank you.
Jannik

2014-11-27 11:29 GMT+01:00 kilon alios <[hidden email]>:
My personal opinion on Github and Pharo is that it already works great with Pharo. The workflow with filetree is exactly the same as other languages that gives the added advantage that you can use all the powerful tools you use with other languages for commiting to git and github. I have not experienced any kind of issue of problem using github with Pharo nor my experience has been any worse than other languages.

With the use of Baseline you dont even need git installed in your system to install any Pharo project that use git which is a feature I have not seen in other languages.

It should be also relative simple to extend ConfigurationBrowser to support github projects via baseline with no need to commit configurations to smalltalkhub.

Pharo is already very active in github, many people have ported their projects there including me.

Maybe StHub should support also being a portal to github , or uses github as its backend though I have no clue how much work that would involve. Personally I have completely abandoned smaltlalkhub for github because my experience was really bad and I was already very familiar with github.

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Noury Bouraqadi <[hidden email]> wrote:
SmalltalkHub is slow, so don’t click too fast :-(

While I’m grateful to developers of SmalltalkHub and previously SqueakSource, I believe as a small community, we cannot afford developing everything by ourselves. We don’t have enough man-power. We can see the symptoms since SmalltalkHub is in beta stage since way too long...

It’s better to use some mainstream platform such as github.
We’ll we have support for it in Pharo 4?

It would be interesting also from the communication point of view to make the world a little bit more aware of Pharo.

Noury

--

~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/

EstebanLM

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

In reply to this post by Noury Bouraqadi-2

Hi,

> On 27 Nov 2014, at 11:14, Noury Bouraqadi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> SmalltalkHub is slow, so don’t click too fast :-(
>
> While I’m grateful to developers of SmalltalkHub and previously SqueakSource, I believe as a small community, we cannot afford developing everything by ourselves. We don’t have enough man-power. We can see the symptoms since SmalltalkHub is in beta stage since way too long...
>
> It’s better to use some mainstream platform such as github.

I agree.

> We’ll we have support for it in Pharo 4?

We already have some support, good enough for a lot of people, but not fopr us :)
We will enhance it for pharo4 (the idea is to have monticello git packages using libgit2, something close to Thierry’s work gitfiletree, but using native libs instead osprocess)
And we’ll continue improving from there.

Esteban

> It would be interesting also from the communication point of view to make the world a little bit more aware of Pharo.
>
> Noury
> <Screen Shot 2014-11-27 at 11.04.54.png>

kilon.alios

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

I forgot to add that git comes with excellent gui clients that are far more powerful and elegant that what Pharo offers currently .

If you are user of emacs there is magit , really powerful gui client and very popular among emacs users.

For gui client I have used quite a lot SmartGit

http://www.syntevo.com/smartgit/

and recently a fellow python developer introduced me to Sourcetree

http://www.sourcetreeapp.com/

Both are free for non commercial projects. They require a license for commercial use but they are relative cheap. They come with diff tools, easy commit access , branching, merging and tons of stuff to make life easier for complex scenarios and they integrate well with bitbucket and other online repositories besides github.

But even from command line there is a lot of room for automation by creating bash scripts to make commits one step process.

philippeback

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

At times, mczs still come handy for some merges...

And Smalltalkhub is good as a safe heaven for collecting packages that are otherwise scattered all around.

Is there a reason why Smalltalkhub would not stay working nicely?

Are we talking about using bigger boxes here? Or is it a deeper issue?

Phil

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 1:52 PM, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:

I forgot to add that git comes with excellent gui clients that are far more powerful and elegant that what Pharo offers currently .

If you are user of emacs there is magit , really powerful gui client and very popular among emacs users.

For gui client I have used quite a lot SmartGit

http://www.syntevo.com/smartgit/

and recently a fellow python developer introduced me to Sourcetree

http://www.sourcetreeapp.com/

Both are free for non commercial projects. They require a license for commercial use but they are relative cheap. They come with diff tools, easy commit access , branching, merging and tons of stuff to make life easier for complex scenarios and they integrate well with bitbucket and other online repositories besides github.

But even from command line there is a lot of room for automation by creating bash scripts to make commits one step process.

EstebanLM

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

On 27 Nov 2014, at 14:43, [hidden email] wrote:

At times, mczs still come handy for some merges...

And Smalltalkhub is good as a safe heaven for collecting packages that are otherwise scattered all around.

nothing that a real catalog/centralised package manager alla npm/apt-get/etc cannot do it.

using a package manager as a catalog feels to me like hammering a screw.

Is there a reason why Smalltalkhub would not stay working nicely?

because we do not have the strength/willing to maintain it.

and each day we are: farther from “state of the art” source management, and farther from state of the art javascript, etc. (which is the reason why sthub

Are we talking about using bigger boxes here? Or is it a deeper issue?

keeping up-to-date a system like sthub is a lot of work, and takes a lot of time.

personally, I prefer way more to spend my time in things that will have a real impact in the community (like having a modern vm) than lose it trying constantly to catch up with what others (with a lot more resources) already did.

each time I start a sub-project, my first question is: “this stuff will have a multiplier effect in the community?” and second question is “do we have to doit from scratch, or can we take advantage of other projects?”. As a maintainer, and being conscious of our limitations, this are the driving forces I find positive to work.

(and of course, most times I do not start sub-projects at all, I just jump into a burning place and try to do my best to fix it… not always very successfully :P)

so, coming back to less “philosophical” question:

1) do we need a state-of-the-art source code management? YES.

2) do we want to spend the few manpower we have on running into a worst solution of what is already around? I think no.

Esteban

Phil

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 1:52 PM, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:
I forgot to add that git comes with excellent gui clients that are far more powerful and elegant that what Pharo offers currently .

If you are user of emacs there is magit , really powerful gui client and very popular among emacs users.

For gui client I have used quite a lot SmartGit

http://www.syntevo.com/smartgit/

and recently a fellow python developer introduced me to Sourcetree

http://www.sourcetreeapp.com/

Both are free for non commercial projects. They require a license for commercial use but they are relative cheap. They come with diff tools, easy commit access , branching, merging and tons of stuff to make life easier for complex scenarios and they integrate well with bitbucket and other online repositories besides github.

But even from command line there is a lot of room for automation by creating bash scripts to make commits one step process.

philippeback

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 27 Nov 2014, at 14:43, [hidden email] wrote:

At times, mczs still come handy for some merges...

And Smalltalkhub is good as a safe heaven for collecting packages that are otherwise scattered all around.

nothing that a real catalog/centralised package manager alla npm/apt-get/etc cannot do it.
using a package manager as a catalog feels to me like hammering a screw.

Sure, I am with you on that. I am yum - ing all day long :-)

But as you know, the Pharo Catalog descriptions are quite lonely.

I'd like to take a moment to tackle that one.

In fact, there are several concerns that I find (and other members on the list share the feeling) must be addressed for commercial development.

e.g.: Stronger RDBMS support, AAA, Logs, ...

But this not really Pharo per se, but a onion ring around it.

As you guys are doing 4.0, that onion ring is making 3.0 work for commercial stuff.

I think that we'll always be one version behind, which is ok.

Is there a reason why Smalltalkhub would not stay working nicely?

because we do not have the strength/willing to maintain it.
and each day we are: farther from “state of the art” source management, and farther from state of the art javascript, etc. (which is the reason why sthub

Ok, thx.

Are we talking about using bigger boxes here? Or is it a deeper issue?

keeping up-to-date a system like sthub is a lot of work, and takes a lot of time.
personally, I prefer way more to spend my time in things that will have a real impact in the community (like having a modern vm) than lose it trying constantly to catch up with what others (with a lot more resources) already did.

Sure, modern vm anytime!

The git worklflow is superpowerful and that's what people use these days.

In a MOOC I do, all exercises and slideware are in Github...

each time I start a sub-project, my first question is: “this stuff will have a multiplier effect in the community?” and second question is “do we have to doit from scratch, or can we take advantage of other projects?”. As a maintainer, and being conscious of our limitations, this are the driving forces I find positive to work.
(and of course, most times I do not start sub-projects at all, I just jump into a burning place and try to do my best to fix it… not always very successfully :P)

Nah, you rule. I wish I was as good as you are.

so, coming back to less “philosophical” question:

1) do we need a state-of-the-art source code management? YES.
2) do we want to spend the few manpower we have on running into a worst solution of what is already around? I think no.

libgit2 would provide that without going through Github driver hoops, which is sweet and more welcoming to newcomers.

Esteban

Phil

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 1:52 PM, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:
I forgot to add that git comes with excellent gui clients that are far more powerful and elegant that what Pharo offers currently .

If you are user of emacs there is magit , really powerful gui client and very popular among emacs users.

For gui client I have used quite a lot SmartGit

http://www.syntevo.com/smartgit/

and recently a fellow python developer introduced me to Sourcetree

http://www.sourcetreeapp.com/

Both are free for non commercial projects. They require a license for commercial use but they are relative cheap. They come with diff tools, easy commit access , branching, merging and tons of stuff to make life easier for complex scenarios and they integrate well with bitbucket and other online repositories besides github.

But even from command line there is a lot of room for automation by creating bash scripts to make commits one step process.

EstebanLM

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

On 27 Nov 2014, at 15:53, [hidden email] wrote:

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 27 Nov 2014, at 14:43, [hidden email] wrote:

At times, mczs still come handy for some merges...

And Smalltalkhub is good as a safe heaven for collecting packages that are otherwise scattered all around.

nothing that a real catalog/centralised package manager alla npm/apt-get/etc cannot do it.
using a package manager as a catalog feels to me like hammering a screw.

Sure, I am with you on that. I am yum - ing all day long :-)

But as you know, the Pharo Catalog descriptions are quite lonely.
I'd like to take a moment to tackle that one.

In fact, there are several concerns that I find (and other members on the list share the feeling) must be addressed for commercial development.

e.g.: Stronger RDBMS support, AAA, Logs, ...

But this not really Pharo per se, but a onion ring around it.
As you guys are doing 4.0, that onion ring is making 3.0 work for commercial stuff.
I think that we'll always be one version behind, which is ok.

Is there a reason why Smalltalkhub would not stay working nicely?

because we do not have the strength/willing to maintain it.
and each day we are: farther from “state of the art” source management, and farther from state of the art javascript, etc. (which is the reason why sthub

Ok, thx.

Are we talking about using bigger boxes here? Or is it a deeper issue?

keeping up-to-date a system like sthub is a lot of work, and takes a lot of time.
personally, I prefer way more to spend my time in things that will have a real impact in the community (like having a modern vm) than lose it trying constantly to catch up with what others (with a lot more resources) already did.

Sure, modern vm anytime!
The git worklflow is superpowerful and that's what people use these days.
In a MOOC I do, all exercises and slideware are in Github...

each time I start a sub-project, my first question is: “this stuff will have a multiplier effect in the community?” and second question is “do we have to doit from scratch, or can we take advantage of other projects?”. As a maintainer, and being conscious of our limitations, this are the driving forces I find positive to work.
(and of course, most times I do not start sub-projects at all, I just jump into a burning place and try to do my best to fix it… not always very successfully :P)

Nah, you rule. I wish I was as good as you are.

so, coming back to less “philosophical” question:

1) do we need a state-of-the-art source code management? YES.
2) do we want to spend the few manpower we have on running into a worst solution of what is already around? I think no.

libgit2 would provide that without going through Github driver hoops, which is sweet and more welcoming to newcomers.

and exactly there is where I will put my effort (as soon as I have time) :)

In the long way, I’m quite sure is a lot more important for community than patching sthub.

btw… historic reference: sthub was never intended to be there for stay. I remember talking about it with Nico and Stef, more than two years ago, before sthub came online, and our conclusion at the time was: “yes, the future it will be git, but until we get there, let’s put sthub online because sqsource cannot handle more projects"

Esteban

Phil

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 1:52 PM, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:
I forgot to add that git comes with excellent gui clients that are far more powerful and elegant that what Pharo offers currently .

If you are user of emacs there is magit , really powerful gui client and very popular among emacs users.

For gui client I have used quite a lot SmartGit

http://www.syntevo.com/smartgit/

and recently a fellow python developer introduced me to Sourcetree

http://www.sourcetreeapp.com/

Both are free for non commercial projects. They require a license for commercial use but they are relative cheap. They come with diff tools, easy commit access , branching, merging and tons of stuff to make life easier for complex scenarios and they integrate well with bitbucket and other online repositories besides github.

But even from command line there is a lot of room for automation by creating bash scripts to make commits one step process.

Levente Uzonyi-2

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

In reply to this post by Noury Bouraqadi-2

On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, Noury Bouraqadi wrote:

> SmalltalkHub is slow, so don’t click too fast :-(
>
> While I’m grateful to developers of SmalltalkHub and previously SqueakSource, I believe as a small community, we cannot afford developing everything by ourselves. We don’t have enough man-power. We can see the symptoms since SmalltalkHub is in beta stage since way too long...

People on this list used to say the same about squeaksource.com. But it
has been working flawlessly since it got updated to the latest version
(which implies that a few bugs got fixed).

What makes you think that tracking down the bugs in SmalltalkHub and
fixing them wouldn't be enough?

Based on my experience a single image - running well designed software -
is able to serve about ten million requests a day. I think that the actual
load on smalltalkhub.com is about three magnitudes lower than that.

Levente

>
> It’s better to use some mainstream platform such as github.
> We’ll we have support for it in Pharo 4?
>
> It would be interesting also from the communication point of view to make the world a little bit more aware of Pharo.
>
> Noury
>

EstebanLM

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

> On 27 Nov 2014, at 16:05, Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, Noury Bouraqadi wrote:
>
>> SmalltalkHub is slow, so don’t click too fast :-(
>>
>> While I’m grateful to developers of SmalltalkHub and previously SqueakSource, I believe as a small community, we cannot afford developing everything by ourselves. We don’t have enough man-power. We can see the symptoms since SmalltalkHub is in beta stage since way too long...
>
> People on this list used to say the same about squeaksource.com. But it
> has been working flawlessly since it got updated to the latest version
> (which implies that a few bugs got fixed).
>
> What makes you think that tracking down the bugs in SmalltalkHub and fixing them wouldn't be enough?
>
> Based on my experience a single image - running well designed software - is able to serve about ten million requests a day. I think that the actual load on smalltalkhub.com is about three magnitudes lower than that.

because:
1) the reason why squeaksource survived is because there is an smalltalkhub absorbing most of the packages.
2) I never say it was not possible to keep it running. I said it does not worth the effort, which is a complete different thing. Of course, if someone wants to take smalltalkhub (there is even a configuration for it) and fix the problems that emerge, I will be more than happy to update the production image.

Esteban

>
> Levente
>
>>
>> It’s better to use some mainstream platform such as github.
>> We’ll we have support for it in Pharo 4?
>>
>> It would be interesting also from the communication point of view to make the world a little bit more aware of Pharo.
>>
>> Noury

David T. Lewis

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 04:19:20PM +0100, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:

>
> > On 27 Nov 2014, at 16:05, Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, Noury Bouraqadi wrote:
> >
> >> SmalltalkHub is slow, so don?t click too fast :-(
> >>
> >> While I?m grateful to developers of SmalltalkHub and previously SqueakSource, I believe as a small community, we cannot afford developing everything by ourselves. We don?t have enough man-power. We can see the symptoms since SmalltalkHub is in beta stage since way too long...
> >
> > People on this list used to say the same about squeaksource.com. But it
> > has been working flawlessly since it got updated to the latest version
> > (which implies that a few bugs got fixed).
> >
> > What makes you think that tracking down the bugs in SmalltalkHub and fixing them wouldn't be enough?
> >
> > Based on my experience a single image - running well designed software - is able to serve about ten million requests a day. I think that the actual load on smalltalkhub.com is about three magnitudes lower than that.
>
> because:
> 1) the reason why squeaksource survived is because there is an smalltalkhub absorbing most of the packages.

No. The reason that squeaksource.com survived is that someone decided to put
effort into maintaining it.

The same will be true for SmalltalkHub. If you decide to make it work, then
you will succeed. If you decide that it is not worth the effort, then it will
fail.

Dave

> 2) I never say it was not possible to keep it running. I said it does not worth the effort, which is a complete different thing. Of course, if someone wants to take smalltalkhub (there is even a configuration for it) and fix the problems that emerge, I will be more than happy to update the production image.
>
> Esteban
>
> >
> > Levente
> >
> >>
> >> It?s better to use some mainstream platform such as github.
> >> We?ll we have support for it in Pharo 4?
> >>
> >> It would be interesting also from the communication point of view to make the world a little bit more aware of Pharo.
> >>
> >> Noury
>

EstebanLM

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

> On 27 Nov 2014, at 17:15, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 04:19:20PM +0100, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
>>
>>> On 27 Nov 2014, at 16:05, Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, Noury Bouraqadi wrote:
>>>
>>>> SmalltalkHub is slow, so don?t click too fast :-(
>>>>
>>>> While I?m grateful to developers of SmalltalkHub and previously SqueakSource, I believe as a small community, we cannot afford developing everything by ourselves. We don?t have enough man-power. We can see the symptoms since SmalltalkHub is in beta stage since way too long...
>>>
>>> People on this list used to say the same about squeaksource.com. But it
>>> has been working flawlessly since it got updated to the latest version
>>> (which implies that a few bugs got fixed).
>>>
>>> What makes you think that tracking down the bugs in SmalltalkHub and fixing them wouldn't be enough?
>>>
>>> Based on my experience a single image - running well designed software - is able to serve about ten million requests a day. I think that the actual load on smalltalkhub.com is about three magnitudes lower than that.
>>
>> because:
>> 1) the reason why squeaksource survived is because there is an smalltalkhub absorbing most of the packages.
>
> No. The reason that squeaksource.com survived is that someone decided to put
> effort into maintaining it.

well, that’s your perception. Mine is that sthub took out from ss 150k packages, and all pharo infrastructure requirements (a lot, believe me… we are almost 24h/7 downloading packages and running different processes).
still…if you put enough effort you can keep anything running, of course.
But you will always need that extra effort.
Thinking in the long term, that does not scales unless you have an organisation that scales.
Or unless you have a community that does not change.
I prefer to believe that all our predictions will become small in time, and then I prefer to think that in the long term is better to have an up-to-date infrastructure, that is capable to absorb our growing without taking much effort from our part.

ah, and btw… smalltalkhub works quite fine. It just have problems on safari, because of the version we are using of amber.
then, is running in a virtualisation system, so time to time it becomes slow.
we can fix the second one paying a better server :)

Esteban

>
> The same will be true for SmalltalkHub. If you decide to make it work, then
> you will succeed. If you decide that it is not worth the effort, then it will
> fail.
>
> Dave
>
>
>> 2) I never say it was not possible to keep it running. I said it does not worth the effort, which is a complete different thing. Of course, if someone wants to take smalltalkhub (there is even a configuration for it) and fix the problems that emerge, I will be more than happy to update the production image.
>>
>> Esteban
>>
>>>
>>> Levente
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It?s better to use some mainstream platform such as github.
>>>> We?ll we have support for it in Pharo 4?
>>>>
>>>> It would be interesting also from the communication point of view to make the world a little bit more aware of Pharo.
>>>>
>>>> Noury
>>
>

stepharo

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

In reply to this post by Levente Uzonyi-2

Nice to know that you run successful web apps.

> People on this list used to say the same about squeaksource.com. But it
> has been working flawlessly since it got updated to the latest version
> (which implies that a few bugs got fixed).
>
> What makes you think that tracking down the bugs in SmalltalkHub and
> fixing them wouldn't be enough?
>
> Based on my experience a single image - running well designed software
> - is able to serve about ten million requests a day. I think that the
> actual load on smalltalkhub.com is about three magnitudes lower than
> that.
>
> Levente

A part of our problem is maintenance and the fact that Smalltalkhub is
missing some features and composed of several layers (amber using bower,
mongo, pharo...)
and that it is using an old version of amber. Now if somebody wants to
help it would be great. Probably a seaside version would reduce
the stack dependency. We are flooded by work.

Stef

Ben Coman

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

In reply to this post by kilon.alios

kilon alios wrote:
> I forgot to add that git comes with excellent gui clients that are far
> more powerful and elegant that what Pharo offers currently .

We started late. We had tools reasonably suited for our needs which we
were comfortable with. I think/hope that once libgit is "released" in
Pharo and the wider community becomes more familiar with it, it
stimulates us to develop tools to rival the others. Tools that
non-Smalltalkers also find useful, and when they want to add a feature,
they are motivated to learn Pharo. I think this is a small additional
benefit of tighter integration of git in Pharo.

cheers -ben

kilon.alios

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

"We started late. We had tools reasonably suited for our needs which we were comfortable with. I think/hope that once libgit is "released" in Pharo and the wider community becomes more familiar with it, it stimulates us to develop tools to rival the others. Tools that non-Smalltalkers also find useful, and when they want to add a feature, they are motivated to learn Pharo. I think this is a small additional benefit of tighter integration of git in Pharo.

cheers -ben"

Even if Smalltalkhub improves and solves these problems, Github will still run circles around it. Sure some pharoers want to stick inside the image because they want to avoid the pain to learn something new or because hey aspire of all inclusive smalltalk enviroment. But I dont want to be like the kid that press his face on the windows of a candy store, salivating for the candy I cannot have. There is a lot of cool technology around us really great and it will be a pity if Pharo does not take advantage of it. Git and Github is only a small part of the story.

My belief and this is a belief I put in practice with my project Ephestos is that Pharo can be an excellent candidate as a glue enviroment , an enviroment that can bring all modern very powerful technologies together. I find a pharo enviroment that allows me to control the outside software with ease far more tempting than a Pharo enviroment that allow me to control with ease only itself. For me this is also what made Python so popular as a language.

We all have seen the 80s drawing with the baloon leaving the island but even in 2014 even Pharo feels like an island some times. Fortunately this changes and we see more and more a more modern smalltalk and a more modern Pharo. I believe in Pharo and in its success and this is why I love contribute to it.

Thierry Goubier

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

In reply to this post by Ben Coman

2014-11-28 14:40 GMT+01:00 Ben Coman <[hidden email]>:

kilon alios wrote:

I forgot to add that git comes with excellent gui clients that are far more powerful and elegant that what Pharo offers currently .

We started late. We had tools reasonably suited for our needs which we were comfortable with. I think/hope that once libgit is "released" in Pharo and the wider community becomes more familiar with it, it stimulates us to develop tools to rival the others. Tools that non-Smalltalkers also find useful, and when they want to add a feature, they are motivated to learn Pharo. I think this is a small additional benefit of tighter integration of git in Pharo.

But underlying this is the hypothesis that you will be able to master the complexity of git from within Pharo, which is ambitious.

Given how complex git is and the use cases around it, I personaly do not underestimate that task. I do know that, probably, if git gets totally integrated within Pharo, it will not fit my professional use case and I will have to resort to something else[*]. In the same way that people who knows and use git (and github) everyday do prefer to stay with FileTree and command line git (and external tools) than switch to GitFileTree (which is a plain automation layer above FileTree and git).

We are now at four attempts[**] at writing git support for Pharo in no less than three or four years, with two dead, one working for two platforms out of three and one under development for already a while. This shows that we need a bit of humility in promising the perfect git integration and tools.

Thierry

[*] But it will fit the Pharo team use case perfectly well ;)

[**] I'm finding new ones on github while searching:
https://github.com/JumpIntoSqueak/metacello-git
https://github.com/timfel/gitocello
https://github.com/theseion/fs-git
https://github.com/theseion/LibGit
https://github.com/theseion/LibGit2-bindings

cheers -ben

Volkert

Re: SmalltalkHub bugs & hangs :-(

In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Am 27.11.2014 um 11:46 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe:

>> On 27 Nov 2014, at 11:14, Noury Bouraqadi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> SmalltalkHub is slow, so don’t click too fast :-(
>>
>> While I’m grateful to developers of SmalltalkHub and previously SqueakSource, I believe as a small community, we cannot afford developing everything by ourselves. We don’t have enough man-power. We can see the symptoms since SmalltalkHub is in beta stage since way too long...
>>
>> It’s better to use some mainstream platform such as github.
>> We’ll we have support for it in Pharo 4?
>>
>> It would be interesting also from the communication point of view to make the world a little bit more aware of Pharo.
> I think it is important to have a serious online system written in Pharo and in daily use (you know, eat your own dog food).
>
> There is also a difference between the system itself and the way it is deployed/managed.
>
> Please do not underestimate how much work this is for something that is used so heavily, like StHub.
>

Yes, this is important for Pharo in some way. But such a the system have
to be maintained
and developed further/keept up to date, otherwise it has a bad impact.
But i have the feeling
in Pharo so many cool things started and then slowly waste away ... Why?
The Community
is to small, ... the cool guys move further. The PhD is finished ...
Gaps hard to close. Would
be sad, if this happens to SmalltalkHub.

There should be only 2-3 public, open source key systems (or type of
systems) where to put
the focus on and give them a long term perspective & support from the
association / consortium
or other donators. And the systems and its building blocks should move
with Pharo in the future.
And the system should be in some obviously way special & exceptional ...
and part of
the "Pharo Masterplan".

(a) Data Analysis & Visualization System
=> ?? MOOSE ??
=> Key Building Blocks: f.e. Roassal2/3D, ZincHTTP, NeoCSV,
NeoJSON, ...
(b) Online/Web System
=> ?? SmalltalkHub ??
=> Key Building Blocks: f.e. Amber, Seaside, ZincHTTP, NeoCSV,
NeoJSON, ...
(c) A Cool Game (would love it)
=> ???
=> Key Building Blocks: ???
(d) ???

I know, it is easy to say. But the best promotion for Pharo are cool
systems in Pharo. But maybe
Pharo has not more potential than doing one type of systems right and
ongoing, f.e. (a).
I have no problems with it. I like Pharo for (a) as i like Erlang/OTP
for (b) and Lua/Love2D for (c).
The coolest would be a perspective for (a), (b), (c) and (d) in Pharo.
But i do not see it ...

But yes, it is better to do one or two things good, and not a five bad.

My 2 cents,
Volkert

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