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Some very basic questions about replacing my webstack

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Andy Burnett

Some very basic questions about replacing my webstack

We currently develop web applications using IBM's Domino server. I want to move us over to Smalltalk and Seaside, but I am having some problems understanding which bits we need to assemble in order to make the application stack (the problem with using Domino is that everything is included in one box, so that tends to insulate developers from needing other tools, and hence learning about them). I would really appreciate it if someone could explain the 'mainstream' way of achieving our basic requirements. Although we like Squeak, we are equally happy to go with VW and/or Gemstone if they are better/more reliable/easier ways to get what we need (and I realise that those criteria may well be in the eye of the beholder)

The key facilities we need are:

SSL connections (I now understand that this is handled by Apache)
User registration and authentication. LDAP would seem to be a good approach - particularly for single sign-on - but does Seaside talk with LDAP (it would be useful to get autheticated usernames in the apps)
SMTP (in and out). We would like to be able to generate emails and receive them into the applications - where appropriate
Some sort of database. We don't do very large scale data crunching, but we do need to be able to reliably store and retrieve subsets of objects.

Just to be clear, I don't want to burden anyone by asking for detailed descriptions, I just want to know - in broad terms - what we would need in order to replace the domino back end and allow us to develop apps in Smalltalk.

Thanks
Andy

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James Robertson-7

Re: Some very basic questions about replacing my webstack

To answer for VisualWorks

-- we support SSL

-- There is an LDAP implementation in the public store repository, although it is not supported by Cincom

-- We support SMTP, as well as the client side POP and IMAP

-- We support a number of databases, including Oracle, SQLServer, PostGreSQL, and MySQL

We have support for Seaside 2.8 in the shipping version of VisualWorks, and we plan to support 2.9 when it is released. You might be interested in looking at what we're doing with Web Velocity, which integrates Seaside, Active Record support built on top of GLORP, and rapid development directly in the web browser

You can see what we're doing with Web Velocity here:

http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView?content=smalltalk_daily_coming_attractions

James Robertson

Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist

http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView

Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library

On Apr 7, 2009, at 11:48 PM, Andy Burnett wrote:

We currently develop web applications using IBM's Domino server. I want to move us over to Smalltalk and Seaside, but I am having some problems understanding which bits we need to assemble in order to make the application stack (the problem with using Domino is that everything is included in one box, so that tends to insulate developers from needing other tools, and hence learning about them). I would really appreciate it if someone could explain the 'mainstream' way of achieving our basic requirements. Although we like Squeak, we are equally happy to go with VW and/or Gemstone if they are better/more reliable/easier ways to get what we need (and I realise that those criteria may well be in the eye of the beholder)

The key facilities we need are:
SSL connections (I now understand that this is handled by Apache)
User registration and authentication. LDAP would seem to be a good approach - particularly for single sign-on - but does Seaside talk with LDAP (it would be useful to get autheticated usernames in the apps)

SMTP (in and out). We would like to be able to generate emails and receive them into the applications - where appropriate
Some sort of database. We don't do very large scale data crunching, but we do need to be able to reliably store and retrieve subsets of objects.

Just to be clear, I don't want to burden anyone by asking for detailed descriptions, I just want to know - in broad terms - what we would need in order to replace the domino back end and allow us to develop apps in Smalltalk.

Thanks
Andy
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jgfoster

Re: Some very basic questions about replacing my webstack

In reply to this post by Andy Burnett

Hi Andy,

Welcome to Smalltalk and Seaside. Comments below...

On Apr 7, 2009, at 8:48 PM, Andy Burnett wrote:

We currently develop web applications using IBM's Domino server. I want to move us over to Smalltalk and Seaside, but I am having some problems understanding which bits we need to assemble in order to make the application stack (the problem with using Domino is that everything is included in one box, so that tends to insulate developers from needing other tools, and hence learning about them). I would really appreciate it if someone could explain the 'mainstream' way of achieving our basic requirements. Although we like Squeak, we are equally happy to go with VW and/or Gemstone if they are better/more reliable/easier ways to get what we need (and I realise that those criteria may well be in the eye of the beholder).

As to GemStone (disclaimer: I work for the vendor), I think you would find it more reliable and scalable than Squeak and the database is built-in! VisualWorks is also very solid and has a rich library of add-ons and an exceptionally strong tool set. Notwithstanding that, there are systems in production with Squeak, including DabbleDB, so it is a realistic option as well.

The key facilities we need are:
SSL connections (I now understand that this is handled by Apache)

Yes, just use Apache.

User registration and authentication. LDAP would seem to be a good approach - particularly for single sign-on - but does Seaside talk with LDAP (it would be useful to get autheticated usernames in the apps)

I believe that Apache should be able to hand this as well, and then just pass on the authenticated username to Seaside.

SMTP (in and out). We would like to be able to generate emails and receive them into the applications - where appropriate

GemStone does not have a built-in library for SMTP, but I believe that there are people who are doing this. It is essentially reading and writing on a socket so quite straightforward.

Some sort of database. We don't do very large scale data crunching, but we do need to be able to reliably store and retrieve subsets of objects.

Of course, with GemStone you get the database built-in; no O/R mapping, no external database to manage. If your data is less than 4 GB then you can use the no-cost license of GemStone.

Just to be clear, I don't want to burden anyone by asking for detailed descriptions, I just want to know - in broad terms - what we would need in order to replace the domino back end and allow us to develop apps in Smalltalk.

Feel free to ask more questions. You can read more about GemStone and Seaside at http://programminggems.wordpress.com/ and http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/.

James Foster

Thanks
Andy

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Philippe Marschall

Re: Some very basic questions about replacing my webstack

In reply to this post by Andy Burnett

2009/4/8 Andy Burnett <[hidden email]>:

> We currently develop web applications using IBM's Domino server. I want to
> move us over to Smalltalk and Seaside, but I am having some problems
> understanding which bits we need to assemble in order to make the
> application stack (the problem with using Domino is that everything is
> included in one box, so that tends to insulate developers from needing other
> tools, and hence learning about them). I would really appreciate it if
> someone could explain the 'mainstream' way of achieving our basic
> requirements. Although we like Squeak, we are equally happy to go with VW
> and/or Gemstone if they are better/more reliable/easier ways to get what we
> need (and I realise that those criteria may well be in the eye of the
> beholder)
>
> The key facilities we need are:
>
> SSL connections (I now understand that this is handled by Apache)

Yepp.

> User registration and authentication. LDAP would seem to be a good approach
> - particularly for single sign-on - but does Seaside talk with LDAP (it
> would be useful to get autheticated usernames in the apps)

Apache should do so.

> SMTP (in and out). We would like to be able to generate emails and receive
> them into the applications - where appropriate

Works in Squeak. You might have to patch it if your SMTP server wants
authentication.

> Some sort of database. We don't do very large scale data crunching, but we
> do need to be able to reliably store and retrieve subsets of objects.

For RDBMS Squeak has native PostgreS and MySQL drivers. There is also
an opendbx and odbj driver that support more databases. There are also
ODBMS in the form of Magma and GOODS available.

> Just to be clear, I don't want to burden anyone by asking for detailed
> descriptions, I just want to know - in broad terms - what we would need in
> order to replace the domino back end and allow us to develop apps in
> Smalltalk.

I can only recommend you to do a prototype.

Cheers
Philippe
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Andy Burnett

Re: Some very basic questions about replacing my webstack

In reply to this post by Andy Burnett

Thanks everyone, that was very helpful. I think we need to go off and learn more about Apache.

cheers
Andy

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