Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

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Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Andy Bower
Folks,

Ok, the (hopefully last) D5 beta is now ready for you to try over the
holiday weekend. We've had a good go at getting the bugs list down (it's now
languishing at around 36 issues outstanding) and we've added a new installer
and activation/registration scheme. It's our tentative aim to try for the
final release at the end of next week (5th April) or shortly afterwards.

INSTALLERS

You can download the installers from:

http://www.object-arts.com/Beta5/DPro5Beta3.exe
http://www.object-arts.com/Beta5/DSE5Beta3.exe
http://www.object-arts.com/Beta5/DVE5Beta3.exe

You'll find that these installers are somewhat larger than the old MSI files
since they now contain InstallShield stub loaders that can detect whether
the MS Installer on your local machine is up to date. If it isn't they will
attempt to install the latest version by pulling it off the web. If anyone
has an old machine without MSI (or with an old version) then it would be
useful if you could try installing Dolphin on it to see if the scheme works.
We haven't been able to try it since all our boxes are now up to date with
the latest MSI.

You should probably start by uninstalling the last beta since the above
installers will not try to upgrade it. You should find that DVE, DSE and
DPro can all coexist happily side by side on the same machine. You'll also
find that a higher level serial number will unlock lower level products
(i.e. the DPro serial number you receive should be suitable for DSE and DVE
too). Hence, where appropriate, this should allow you to run tests of your
developed software in the lower versions of Dolphin.

ACTIVATION

We've decided to adopt an MS style activation scheme for D5 to counteract
some piracy that we've seen occurring with Dolphin 4. The activation system
shouldn't be any more inconvenient than the old scheme (providing it works
correctly) and in many ways should be easier to use since you won't have to
remember lots of age old upgrade keys. The system works like this:

1) When you buy a product (or upgrade) from us you will receive a Purchase
Key as part of your order confirmation. Everyone's purhase keys are unique
and I'll be sending out some demo keys to all the beta testers after I've
finished this post.

2) After receiving the Purhase Key you need to fire up your Dolphin
installation using the Fresh Install icon. Note that the other icon won't
work until the fresh install has been performed. You'll see that the First
Run dialog is simpler than before, just having space for a single serial
number. To obtain the serial number you need to activate your copy of
Dolphin and so should click on the Activate button. If this doesn't work
(let us know) then you can link directly to www.object-arts.com/activate in
your web browser.

3) Fill in the details in the Product Activation form. If you have purchased
an upgrade key then you will need to enter the appropriate Dolphin 4 serial
number in the "Upgrade Serial Number" field. If all goes well you should be
issued with a serial number that is tied to your current Machine ID. To
allow for people upgrading machines and/or installing Dolphin (legally) on
several computers, you are allowed to activate the product up to 5 times. If
you eventually lose your serial number you can run activation again with the
same Machine ID and receive it back automatically. You will need to keep
your Purchase Key safe, however.

4) Enter the serial number you receive into the First Run dialog and press
unlock. The unlock process proceeds much as it did before. One difference is
that the serial number will be saved to the registry so, should you try and
run Fresh Install again on this machine, it will automatically be entered
into the appropriate field for you.

Naturally, the activation system is written in Dolphin using the built in
DolphinSure encryption technology. Currently the activation process runs as
a "To Go" CGI but we might build it into a Swazoo system in future if we get
adventurous enough.

Have a fun holiday!

Best Regards,

Andy Bower
Dolphin Support
http://www.object-arts.com
---
Are you trying too hard?
http://www.object-arts.com/Relax.htm
---


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Jeffrey Odell-2
I have a Windows XP Pro laptop with D4 and D5 Beta2 on it.  I deinstalled D5
Beta2, and did a Standard Pro Install of D5 Beta3.  When I run from the
fresh install icon, I get the dialog attached .

Both versions were working fine when I started.  D4 still seems to be fine,
but now the D4 VM is the default, whereas before the D5 Beta2 deinstall the
D5 vm was the default association.

Any ideas? I could probaby get around it by explicitly starting the image
with the other VM, but I thought I'd leave my system alone in case you want
any more info or you want me to try something -

jlo


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`
end


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Jeffrey Odell-2
To clarify, I installed D5 Pro Beta3, but took all the default answers.

jlo


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Bill Schwab-2
In reply to this post by Andy Bower
Andy,

The first-run shortcut didn't work until I helped it locate the D5
executable.
The image save-as feature appears to be broken (see below).

Have a good one,

Bill


6:30:46 PM, Friday, March 29, 2002: Unhandled exception - an Error('Failed
to copy sources to C:\work\Dolphin5beta3\Dolphin(The system cannot find the
file specified.)')

SourceManager(Object)>>error:
[] in SourceManager>>copySourceFilesTo:
[] in Win32Error(Exception)>>_evaluateHandler:in:
BlockClosure>>ifCurtailed:
BlockClosure>>ensure:
Win32Error(Exception)>>_evaluateHandler:in:
Win32Error(Exception)>>_propagateFrom:
Win32Error(Exception)>>_propagate
Win32Error(Exception)>>signal
Win32Error(Exception)>>signal:with:
Win32Error(Exception)>>signalWith:
HRESULTError class>>signalHRESULT:
HRESULTError class>>signal:with:
HRESULTError class(Exception class)>>signalWith:
KernelLibrary(ExternalLibrary)>>systemError:
File class>>copy:to:
[] in SourceManager>>copySourceFilesTo:
ExceptionHandler(ExceptionHandlerAbstract)>>markAndTry
[] in ExceptionHandler(ExceptionHandlerAbstract)>>try:
BlockClosure>>ifCurtailed:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------


---
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
[hidden email]


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Andy Bower
In reply to this post by Jeffrey Odell-2
Jeff,

> I have a Windows XP Pro laptop with D4 and D5 Beta2 on it.  I deinstalled
D5
> Beta2, and did a Standard Pro Install of D5 Beta3.  When I run from the
> fresh install icon, I get the dialog attached .
>
> Both versions were working fine when I started.  D4 still seems to be
fine,
> but now the D4 VM is the default, whereas before the D5 Beta2 deinstall
the
> D5 vm was the default association.
>
> Any ideas? I could probaby get around it by explicitly starting the image
> with the other VM, but I thought I'd leave my system alone in case you
want
> any more info or you want me to try something -

Ok, it looks like the Fresh Install icon was relying on the IMG association
with Dolphin to launch the (in this case inappropriate) Dolphin.exe from
version 4. I've made it go straight to the Dolphin 5 version. There is a new
download that fixes this now.. you should be able to install this over the
top of your current D5 installation without having to uninstall. Please
allow at least 30 minutes from the time of this message before attempting to
access it.

Best Regards,

Andy Bower
Dolphin Support
http://www.object-arts.com
---
Are you trying too hard?
http://www.object-arts.com/Relax.htm
---


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Andy Bower
In reply to this post by Bill Schwab-2
Bill,

> The first-run shortcut didn't work until I helped it locate the D5
> executable.

This should be fixed with the latest download. Please allow at least 30
minutes from the time of this message before attempting to access it.

> The image save-as feature appears to be broken (see below).

I don't see this here, can you do a bit more digging?

Best Regards,

Andy Bower
Dolphin Support
http://www.object-arts.com
---
Are you trying too hard?
http://www.object-arts.com/Relax.htm
---


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Andy Bower
In reply to this post by Andy Bower
Jeff,

> Please allow at least 30 minutes from the time of this message before
> attempting to access it.

The downloads are there now.

Best Regards,

Andy Bower
Dolphin Support
http://www.object-arts.com
---
Are you trying too hard?
http://www.object-arts.com/Relax.htm
---


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Bill Schwab
In reply to this post by Andy Bower
Andy,

> I don't see this here, can you do a bit more digging?

I'll give it a shot next week (the machine's at work).  Two things come to
mind: the machine in question is an NT4->2k upgrade, and IIRC, I chose the
custom install (just to see what it looked like) and used the default
settings.

Interestingly, it's the only machine I've tried that was willing to install
the first beta 3 download.  I'm stuck at the moment because I'm experiencing
the fresh install problem, and my dialup connection at home isn't really up
to an 8MB gulp, especially not on a Friday evening.  I've seen the problems
now on Win98 2nd edition and my 2k box at home.  I'll probably take a run
over to work later tonight to download the new file.

I have no desire to see your hard work being copied illegally, but, a copy
protected development system causes me some concern.  As it is, I have the
forementioned 2k machine in my office which has all of a 4G drive that I
want to replace.  I have two aging laptops that are at some risk of quitting
or being replaced.  I frequently find need to install an IDE on a stray
machine to debug something that happens only on it - your request for more
info on the installer problem is arguably an example of it.  I've had a
couple of machines fail unexpectedly in the past year.  Basically, hardware
is sufficiently flaky that you are time-bombing the purchase.  You are also
providing a disincentive to explore what happens on this or that machine, so
bugs will be more likely to go undetected.

It takes a double failure, but, it's not difficult to envision having a
machine quit on me and also being unable to activate Dolphin on another box
either because your sever is down or the infrastructure between us fails.  I
support systems 7x24 so this kind of thing gets my attention.

As it is, I have to work to defend Smalltalk, and copy protection will just
be one more thing thrown in my face.  You'll reduce piracy, but I fear it
will cost you even more legitimate business.

Have a good one,

Bill

--
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
[hidden email]


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Bill Schwab
In reply to this post by Andy Bower
Andy,

I ran over to my office and downloaded the updated installer at 100
(literally) times the throughput that I could hope for here.  Got the
machine ID from my 2k box, and unlocked.  Then I tried to pick up where I
left off at work (I'm not bonkers you see<g>).  Am I reading this right:
it's impossible to move an image from one machine to another?  Please say it
ain't so - that could be a show-stopper :(

Bill

--
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
[hidden email]


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Ian Bartholomew-3
In reply to this post by Andy Bower
Andy,

> The downloads are there now.

I upgraded this morning (Sat) but there still seems to be some sort of
problem with the file associations. I can start from Dolphin from the main
Start menu without problem but when I double click on the 'img' file then it
brings up the a similar error dialog to the one Jeffrey posted - the
difference is that "(Fresh Install)" bit is missing on mine.

The strange thing is that checking the registered file types option in
Explorer shows "img" file as "Dolphin Image Files" but doesn't show anything
under the "open" operation.  I tried to change it to point at Dolphin.exe
and it just ignored me. I had to delete the existing "open" operation and
then add it again using the "New" button.

All appears to work now ...

Ian


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Jeffrey Odell-2
In reply to this post by Andy Bower
The later download cleared up the problem.  I was able to run the Fresh
Install and activate the product.

jlo


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Louis Sumberg-2
In reply to this post by Bill Schwab
"Bill Schwab" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:[hidden email]...
> I have no desire to see your hard work being copied illegally, but, a copy
> protected development system causes me some concern.  <snip> ... you are
time-bombing the purchase.  You are also
> providing a disincentive to explore what happens on this or that machine,
so
> bugs will be more likely to go undetected.
>
> It takes a double failure, but, it's not difficult to envision having a
> machine quit on me and also being unable to activate Dolphin on another
box
> either because your sever is down or the infrastructure between us fails.
I
> support systems 7x24 so this kind of thing gets my attention.
>
> As it is, I have to work to defend Smalltalk, and copy protection will
just
> be one more thing thrown in my face.  You'll reduce piracy, but I fear it
> will cost you even more legitimate business.

I agree with Bill.  This is a significant change.  It's been a long time
since I read a software license agreement, but this got me moving.  Here is
the relevant paragraph from license.rtf for versions 4 and 5:

Dolphin4:
 Â· SOFTWARE PRODUCT.  You may install and use an unlimited number of copies
of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT on computers, including workstations, terminals or
other digital electronic devices to design, develop, and test your software
application(s) ("Application"); however, you must acquire and dedicate a
license for each separate user of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. A license for the
SOFTWARE PRODUCT may not be shared or used concurrently by different users.

Dolphin5:
· SOFTWARE PRODUCT.  You may install and use copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT
on up to 5 computers, including workstations, terminals or other digital
electronic devices to design, develop, and test your software application(s)
("Application"); however, you must acquire and dedicate a license for each
separate user of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT. A license for the SOFTWARE PRODUCT
may not be shared or used concurrently by different users.

Going from "an unlimited number of copies" to "up to 5 computers" is a big
change.  I know I said that already but it's worth repeating.  For example,
I just recently had two computers die on me.  If this license had been in
place I could well be through 3 of my 5 "computers".  Speaking of which, how
is a computer defined?  e.g., if I upgrade the cpu or hard disk, is this the
same computer or a new one.

My experience is that some copy protection schemes cause grief for the
user/developer.  Remember dongles?  (sp?)  Even if I were to continue
upgrading to each new version, thereby getting a new allotment of 5 copies,
my expectation is that were I to stop upgrading, I could still use what I
had forever.  Clearly, this is not the case with the new license.  If I were
a new user, I would not purchase the product.  As a current user, if this
remains in place, I may well start looking at an exit (migration) strategy.

I just installed beta3, here are a few odds and ends:

Custom Setup, Help & Documentation Files shows "This feature requires 0MB on
your hard drive."  (Maybe this is correct at this point in time.)

Dolphin Options, System Folder ... there are many items missing, e.g.,
defaultFont.

CHB, comments window ... the vertical scrollbar seems to be partially
hidden.

http://www.object-arts.com/dolphin5/Images/FirstRun.gif ... "The page cannot
be found".

Have a great holiday weekend, all.

-- Louis


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Steve Alan Waring
"Louis Sumberg" <[hidden email]> wrote

> If this license had been in
> place I could well be through 3 of my 5 "computers".

I will go through 4 of my 5 in the next two weeks. Besides my main working
machine, there is the machine I run network tests against, My dusty old
Win95 machine and an XP machine that I can borrow. On these last three
machines the only use the image gets is to occasionally run UnitTests.

Thanks,
Steve


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Jeffrey Odell-2
In reply to this post by Jeffrey Odell-2
Well, this left me in a slightly inconvinent place.  If I double click an
image, it still tries to open with D4.  That's OK, but D5 is not on the Open
WIth right click menu like it was for Beta 2.  So I have to make other
provisions (create a shortcut) to open the image with D5.

Not sure if that is what you wanted, but just letting you know.

jlo


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Ian Bartholomew-3
Jeffrey,

> Well, this left me in a slightly inconvinent place.  If I double click an
> image, it still tries to open with D4.

That sounds very similar to what I was seeing. If you look at the file
association for "img" you may see that the "opens with" operation doesn't
show an associated file. I couldn't edit the "open" operation to correct it
(Windows just wouldn't open the edit dialog?) so I had to delete the
existing operation and add it again from scratch.

Double clicking an image file now works as expected for me.

Ian


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Bill Schwab-2
In reply to this post by Andy Bower
Andy,

> This should be fixed with the latest download. Please allow at least 30
> minutes from the time of this message before attempting to access it.
>
> > The image save-as feature appears to be broken (see below).
>
> I don't see this here, can you do a bit more digging?

#sourcesFileName is not specifying the path, and I _think_ that it's not
able to find the file as a result.  At this point, I'm more interested in
why the original download worked on this machine =:0

Have a good one,

Bill

--
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
[hidden email]


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Chris Uppal-3
In reply to this post by Andy Bower
Andy,

> [...] we've added a new installer and activation/registration scheme.

A story.

Yesterday, I got your email about the new beta, and so -- it being Sunday,
when I have Net access all day -- I immediately downloaded the new
installer.  I tried to read this newsgroup but the server seemed to be out
of action until much later in the day.  That meant I couldn't read your
instructions, but then I probably wouldn't have read them carefully enough
at first go anyway, so it made little difference.

There's always a problem when installing a new version, since I have to
review a few patches I've made to system routines (there aren't many but
it's something that requires care), so it's best to select a spare machine
and install on that, so I can do A-B comparisons between the two versions.
As it happens I chose an NT box, and kicked off the installer.

It started off in the usual way, and then -- much to my surprise --
announced that it was "Downloading file INSTMSIW.EXE".  A quick check of my
modem/router, and yes indeed, it was dialling out!  As I've mentioned,
yesterday was Sunday, so there was no real harm done, but it was still
annoying.  Software should *never* establish an outbound connection without
the knowledge and consent -- in advance -- of the user.  However, I just
killed the install (and hung up) and checked that I had the installer stuff
on that machine.  Re-installed it in fact (just to make sure).  Tried again.
Same thing happened.  Oh well, presumably it's looking for a more up-to-date
version than I have locally.  I may as well let it finish.  Wait for 6-7
minutes while it downloads....   OK, this time it worked.  Had some
difficulty in getting Dolphin to do a "fresh install" (remember that I
couldn't get to this news group), but eventually found that although it
wouldn't accept the key you'd sent me (I now realise that it wasn't supposed
to), it would accept the old key from beta 2.

Spent the day removing unneeded patches, upgrading still needed patches,
fixing View resources that had been broken, upgrading/changing my scripts,
etc.  All the usual stuff that I have to do when new version comes out.
Takes most of a day (with practice -- it used to take two).  Eventually I
was happy that I had a new set of packages that neither broke, nor were
broken by, the new beta.  Good.

Now to put it on my main machine.  Uninstall the old beta; install the new
one.  Argh!  The bloody thing's dialling out again!  This is odd (as well as
annoying).  There is some doubt about how up-to-date the installer was on
the NT box, but the installer on the main (W2k) machine was good enough to
install the first two betas.  Fortunately it's still Sunday, and -- knowing
from experience that there's no way of persuading the installer *not* to
dial out -- I may as well let it have its way.  Another 6-7 minute wait...
Fume...

Now it wants to reboot the box!  Why?  It's getting late, and I really don't
have time for this.  So I just go off and do other things instead.  Among
them, I find that I can now reach this group again.  I am disturbed to read
about the new activation scheme.  Not at all welcome.  Other people have
said all that needs to be said, I think, so I won't belabour the point (much
;-).

An evening doing other things.  A night's sleep.  Somewhat niggled at by
worrying about the activation scheme and what I'm going to do about it.  On
the one hand I wouldn't normally touch it with a barge pole (it's looking
increasingly likely that IE5.5 + W2k will turn out to be the last MS
software I ever buy or use personally), on the other hand there's some
really good new stuff in D5...  Indecision...

Today's a new day.  One thing has become clear: regardless of how this all
turns out in the long run, I need to keep a migration route open back to D4
for now.  I've allowed myself to switch to entirely D5-based development
during the beta, and (up till now) that hasn't seemed like a risk.  But as
of beta3 -- as I understand it -- it'll be harder to import D5 packages back
into D4.  There were always going to be a few problems (missing
prerequisites, for instance), but the STB changes will presumably make the
situation significantly harder.  Basically, that means that I'll be unable
to contribute much to the remainder of the beta program --  I have every
intention of firing beta3 up and having a prod at it, but that won't be the
same level of testing as actually using for day-to-day programming.

Anyway, having sorted out where I was in the short term, I decided to finish
the installation of beta3.  Snag.  It's now *Monday* when I *don't* have Net
access during the day.  (Well, I could have, but it costs me money, and
time/bother since I have to reconfigure the router.)  So I *still* don't
activate beta3 after all...

Instead I write a long post to the beta group which I hope is polite, and
not too boring, while not concealing the fact that you have one seriously
pissed-off customer here.

One problem with the activation scheme, as conceived by MS, is that it
pre-supposes an ideal world where everyone has 24-7 Net access, where that
access is always convenient, and always works.  Where servers never break.
Where firewalls never intervene.  Where users are never away from their
connection points.  My point in this post has been to illustrate the fact
that those assumptions simply don't hold in the real world.  (I have, in
fact, even omitted a few minor problems from my sad tale.)

MS's attitude also pre-supposes an ideal user-base of sheep-like customers
who are always willing to put up with jumping through a few extra hoops, or
even changing a favoured way of working, in order to make MS's life easier.
I have no idea whether they will prove to be correct.  I shall certainly
watch with considerable interest.   However, even if they can make it stick,
it doesn't follow that OA can too.  I fully realise that one of the purposes
of a beta programme -- especially a closed beta -- is to allow you to try
out potentially unpopular developments; to dip a toe in the water with only
an understanding and forgiving audience.  I hope that's what you are doing
here.  It is entirely up to you how you balance the possibility of loosing
(or not gaining) customers, against making piracy harder, but it's important
that you get feedback now on how much customer dissatisfaction to expect.

BTW, the problem of not gaining customers might be more of an issue that
loosing them (existing customers, after all, are "addicted").  Imagine that
I'd hit these sorts of problems if I'd just been a new user installing a
trial from a magazine cover disk, say.  There is *no* chance that I'd have
persevered.

    -- chris (feeling better for having got that off his chest)

P.S. I forgot to mention that -- like Bill -- if I can't copy images from
one machine to another then that would be a real showstopper.  (It should be
possible to get around that, though, even if you do stick with the
activation scheme, since there should be a valid 'unlock' in the registry,
even if not the image).


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Andy Bower
Chris,

Your comments about the activation scheme have been noted but let's clear up
one item at least:

> It started off in the usual way, and then -- much to my surprise --
> announced that it was "Downloading file INSTMSIW.EXE".  A quick check of
my
> modem/router, and yes indeed, it was dialling out!

snip

> Now to put it on my main machine.  Uninstall the old beta; install the new
> one.  Argh!  The bloody thing's dialling out again!  This is odd (as well
as
> annoying).  There is some doubt about how up-to-date the installer was on
> the NT box, but the installer on the main (W2k) machine was good enough to
> install the first two betas.  Fortunately it's still Sunday, and --
knowing
> from experience that there's no way of persuading the installer *not* to
> dial out -- I may as well let it have its way.  Another 6-7 minute wait...
> Fume..

snip

> Now it wants to reboot the box!  Why?  It's getting late, and I really
don't
> have time for this.  So I just go off and do other things instead.  Among
> them, I find that I can now reach this group again.  I am disturbed to
read
> about the new activation scheme.  Not at all welcome.  Other people have
> said all that needs to be said, I think, so I won't belabour the point
(much

These vagaries are caused by the new installer (InstallShield) which we have
just forked out upwards of $1000 to purchase. The idea is that if you don't
have the correct version of the Windows Installer software on you machine it
will go and fetch it for you. To me this seems like a good idea, and rather
better than the idea that each download is 1.2M larger and includes the up
to date version whether it is needed or not. You might say, why not let
people download it if they need to but, from our end, the problem is that
many people fire off a support email before engaging brain and reading the
web page for instructions. We're not just talking about purchases here but
all the trial copies that get downloaded too. Given this is a standard
installer I think many other products will have the same choice to make so
it will be interesting to see which direction they take.

>Instead I write a long post to the beta group which I hope is polite, and
>not too boring, while not concealing the fact that you have one seriously
>pissed-off customer here.

And did you need net access to post this message?

>One problem with the activation scheme, as conceived by MS, is that it
>pre-supposes an ideal world where everyone has 24-7 Net access, where that
>access is always convenient, and always works.  Where servers never break.
>Where firewalls never intervene.  Where users are never away from their
>connection points.  My point in this post has been to illustrate the fact
>that those assumptions simply don't hold in the real world.  (I have, in
>fact, even omitted a few minor problems from my sad tale.)

No, it doesn't assume 24/7 access at all. You have to have net access to
download the software in the first place and thereafter you have to have 30
seconds of net access to activate it. The firewall stuff should not be a
problem since it is all by http:// (and, anyway, there will be an e-mail
activation mechanism for cases where our servers fail).

>BTW, the problem of not gaining customers might be more of an issue that
>loosing them (existing customers, after all, are "addicted").  Imagine that
>I'd hit these sorts of problems if I'd just been a new user installing a
>trial from a magazine cover disk, say.  There is *no* chance that I'd have
>persevered.

To be honest, Chris, if you were a non-"talker" and you gave up after a
somewhat more lengthy install process (although this wouldn't really be the
case since the trial is already time limited and it doesn't need
activation.. and if a CD was involved then including the extra installer
components on the disk would be possible so avoiding the additional dial
out) then I hardly think you'd have the patience to get past Smalltalk's
"weird syntax" and continue with the product anyway.

Best Regards,

Andy Bower
Dolphin Support
http://www.object-arts.com
---
Are you trying too hard?
http://www.object-arts.com/Relax.htm
---


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Bill Schwab-2
Andy,

Re downloading the installer update, my advice is to have a link to allow
folks to download the latest installer ahead of time.  My dialup at home is
slow and flaky, so I download >1MB things here and take them home on Zip or
CD.  I was forewarned having installed it on this machine, and grabbed the
files from the MS website to skip that step at home.


> >One problem with the activation scheme, as conceived by MS, is that it
> >pre-supposes an ideal world where everyone has 24-7 Net access, where
that
> >access is always convenient, and always works.  Where servers never
break.
> >Where firewalls never intervene.  Where users are never away from their
> >connection points.  My point in this post has been to illustrate the fact
> >that those assumptions simply don't hold in the real world.  (I have, in
> >fact, even omitted a few minor problems from my sad tale.)
>
> No, it doesn't assume 24/7 access at all. You have to have net access to
> download the software in the first place and thereafter you have to have
30
> seconds of net access to activate it. The firewall stuff should not be a
> problem since it is all by http:// (and, anyway, there will be an e-mail
> activation mechanism for cases where our servers fail).

I think you are missing the point: any breakdown between us and you, or a
failure of your server and/or ISP, and we're potentially on forced vacation.
It takes multiple failures, but, I once had a laptop toss a hard disk only
days before a big presentation - Murphy knows when to strike for maximum
effect.



> >BTW, the problem of not gaining customers might be more of an issue that
> >loosing them (existing customers, after all, are "addicted").  Imagine
that
> >I'd hit these sorts of problems if I'd just been a new user installing a
> >trial from a magazine cover disk, say.  There is *no* chance that I'd
have
> >persevered.
>
> To be honest, Chris, if you were a non-"talker" and you gave up after a
> somewhat more lengthy install process (although this wouldn't really be
the
> case since the trial is already time limited and it doesn't need
> activation.. and if a CD was involved then including the extra installer
> components on the disk would be possible so avoiding the additional dial
> out) then I hardly think you'd have the patience to get past Smalltalk's
> "weird syntax" and continue with the product anyway.

For the newbie, the risk is that they will end up with a different
Smalltalk.  And make no mistake, were I approaching Dolphin as an uninvested
user, I'd run like DLL at the first smell of copy protection; you might
recall my careful questioning of you on this point during the early betas.
Copy protection is no more acceptable to me now than it was then.  The more
I think about what you are planning, the more I think it's a mistake, and
hope you'll reconsider.

Have a good one,

Bill

--
Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
[hidden email]


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Re: Something for the weekend, Sir? [Dolphin 5 Beta3]

Chris Uppal-3
In reply to this post by Andy Bower
Andy,

> Your comments about the activation scheme have been noted but let's clear
up
> one item at least:
>
> [about "Downloading file INSTMSIW.EXE"]
>
> These vagaries are caused by the new installer (InstallShield) which we
have
> just forked out upwards of $1000 to purchase. The idea is that if you
don't
> have the correct version of the Windows Installer software on you machine
it
> will go and fetch it for you. To me this seems like a good idea, and
rather
> better than the idea that each download is 1.2M larger and includes the up
> to date version whether it is needed or not.

The issue isn't about requiring the most up-to-date installer (though why it
requires a later installer than the one that worked fine for betas 1 and 2
defeats me).  The points are that:

    a) It should *not* make an outbound connection without asking first.

    b) I should have been given the option to download the thing when I was
connected to the OA website.

If you've spent over a grand on InstallShield and it doesn't give you a way
of prompting the user:

    "Dolphin 5 requires version 1,000,000 of the M$ installer, but the
    version found is only version 500,000.  Do you want to download
    the updated installer (approx 1.7M) now ?
        <download> <cancel installation>"

then I'd say you got burned.

> >Instead I write a long post to the beta group which I hope is polite, and
> >not too boring, while not concealing the fact that you have one seriously
> >pissed-off customer here.
>
> And did you need net access to post this message?

I don't trust myself to reply to this properly, not in semi-public anyway.
I'll confine myself to the facts; the message was written during the day, it
was posted just after 6pm -- at 18:09 from the timestamp on the message.

> >One problem with the activation scheme, as conceived by MS, is that it
> >pre-supposes an ideal world where everyone has 24-7 Net access, where
that
> >access is always convenient, and always works.  Where servers never
break.
> >Where firewalls never intervene.  Where users are never away from their
> >connection points.  My point in this post has been to illustrate the fact
> >that those assumptions simply don't hold in the real world.  (I have, in
> >fact, even omitted a few minor problems from my sad tale.)
>
> No, it doesn't assume 24/7 access at all. You have to have net access to
> download the software in the first place and thereafter you have to have
30
> seconds of net access to activate it.

The problem, as I stated, is that the time I (or anyone) am doing the
installation is not necessarily the time that I'd connected to get the
download (this affects the MS installer issue too, of course).  To the "30
seconds of net time" you should add the time and hassle of having to
re-configure my router (twice).  If the system doesn't assume 24-7 then how
come I still haven't activated beta3 ?  (Yes I could have done it last
evening, but wasn't in the mood for jumping through hoops).

> >BTW, the problem of not gaining customers might be more of an issue that
> >loosing them (existing customers, after all, are "addicted").  Imagine
that
> >I'd hit these sorts of problems if I'd just been a new user installing a
> >trial from a magazine cover disk, say.  There is *no* chance that I'd
have
> >persevered.
>
> To be honest, Chris, if you were a non-"talker" and you gave up after a
> somewhat more lengthy install process (although this wouldn't really be
the
> case since the trial is already time limited and it doesn't need
> activation.. and if a CD was involved then including the extra installer
> components on the disk would be possible so avoiding the additional dial
> out) then I hardly think you'd have the patience to get past Smalltalk's
> "weird syntax" and continue with the product anyway.

Tell you another little story.  The last weekend of June '98 I was sitting
at home, and idly decided to try out this "SmallTalk" thing that I'd been
hearing about on the Java newsgroups.  The latest issue of PC-Plus (I think)
had an unrestricted copy of the entry-level version of something called
"Dolphin Smalltalk, version 2.0", so I thought I'd fire that up and see what
it was like.  I was impressed from the very start.  It installed neatly,
didn't do any of the "wrong" things that are signs that the software is
likely to cause problems.  I really liked the IDE, it was neat, nimble, and
transparent.  I decided I liked it enough to invest in, and when I next had
a convenient Net connection (i.e. when I went back to work on Monday) I
bought the ADK and Sockets Connection.

I'm not going into all of this just to wallow in sentimental memories of
times that appear to be passing (I'll admit there's a bit of that too).
Here's the point.  Since then I've bought a the rest of the Dolphin kit, as
many upgrades as there have been that I've had to pay for.  Persuaded my
(then) employer to invest in another full licence (just after you'd put the
price up, as I remember).  I've rather consistently boosted Dolphin on
c.l.s -- not that I'm claiming that had much effect, but it must have helped
a *bit*.  None of that would have happened if there's been any significant
nuisance about installing that first copy of Dolphin.  If it had been a
time-restricted trial, or otherwise some form of crippleware, then I'd not
have bothered with it in the first place.  If it had required me to register
on the Net then I'dve just killed the installation.  Yes, I'll admit that I
have very little patience with software, or other systems, that appear to be
designed for their authors' convenience rather than mine.  But that isn't
the point here.  In a world where there are always many interesting things
waiting to be investigated, even a big-time novelty junkie like myself
wouldn't have carried on past the first (unnecessary) obstacle put in my
way.  Why should I have done ?  There were lots of other things I could have
been doing instead.

On the other side of the room is another cover disk, this time with a couple
of decent looking 3D modelling systems on it.  (Actually Cinema 4D v5 and
Poser 3).  I'd like to have a play with them, but they require Net
registration.  Maybe I'll get around to installing them yet, but the disc's
been sitting there for a month now....

BTW, I hope you understand that, no matter how irritated I'm getting, I *am*
still trying to be helpful.  I wouldn't whinge like this in a more public
forum.

> Andy Bower

    -- chris


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