Hi guys, did anyone happen to notice that RIGHT-CLICK DOESN'T WORK in
Windows on our Squeak-4.5 release download? http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xIgjzkwaWr4J:stackoverflow.com/questions/6802219/squeak-smalltalk-why-cant-i-activate-the-do-it-menu+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us Verified. HTF did this get past our testing? Was it related to a last-minute inclusion of the CogVM? Whatever -- need to put out an update. Some acquaintences of mine wanting to learn Squeak, following Lawson English instructional videos except they couldn't get the right-click menu, they sent me the link above indicating others having the same issue. Not a good first impression! 1) What is the proper fix? It seems the 3ButtonMouse=0 in the "squeak.ini" file, it should be 1 right? Changing it seems to clear up the issue in Windows, but so does "swapMouseButtons" in the image, but flipping that would foul it up for Linux so I'm thinking the .ini file. 2) Did we do something related to "signing" for Mac and so I suppose flipping that will require the new All-In-One to be resigned to work on Mac (?). I know nothing about Mac, please advise. 3) If we have to resign anyway, 4.5 has had a few updates taking it to 13687 instead of 13680 (current 4.5 download). So if we have to resign anyway, should we go ahead and deliver this latest image too? 4) If we delivering a new image, maybe we should call it 4.5.1? As release manager, I'm embarassed, and inclined to make this right. Please help me think this through and with the Mac stuff.. |
On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 05:01:25PM -0500, Chris Muller wrote:
> Hi guys, did anyone happen to notice that RIGHT-CLICK DOESN'T WORK in > Windows on our Squeak-4.5 release download? > > http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xIgjzkwaWr4J:stackoverflow.com/questions/6802219/squeak-smalltalk-why-cant-i-activate-the-do-it-menu+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us > > Verified. HTF did this get past our testing? Was it related to a > last-minute inclusion of the CogVM? I am assuming that this is an ini file setting issue, in which case it would be a packaging problem as opposed to a Squeak 4.5 issue. If and when there is a Squeak 4.5.1, the designation should refer to the Squeak image itself, not to whatever configurations may have been included in an all-in-one package. If we want the all-in-one package to be presented as the primary release artifact (not a great idea IMO), then it probably needs to be versioned in some way also. But changing an ini file setting for one of the many possible VMs should not be mixed up with the versioning of the primary Squeak release artifact, which is the image itself. So I'd say fix the all-in-one file, maybe just give it a new name to reflect the update, and let to go at that. Oh, and update the links on squeak.org as needed. > > Whatever -- need to put out an update. Some acquaintences of mine > wanting to learn Squeak, following Lawson English instructional videos > except they couldn't get the right-click menu, they sent me the link > above indicating others having the same issue. Not a good first > impression! > > 1) What is the proper fix? It seems the > > 3ButtonMouse=0 > > in the "squeak.ini" file, it should be 1 right? Changing it seems to > clear up the issue in Windows, but so does "swapMouseButtons" in the > image, but flipping that would foul it up for Linux so I'm thinking > the .ini file. > > 2) Did we do something related to "signing" for Mac and so I suppose > flipping that will require the new All-In-One to be resigned to work > on Mac (?). I know nothing about Mac, please advise. I think that the signing issue relates only to the executable Mac VM, so an update to the all-in-one package for a Windows ini file would not require any update for the Mac VM. But I'm not a Mac user, so I can't say for sure. > > 3) If we have to resign anyway, 4.5 has had a few updates taking it to > 13687 instead of 13680 (current 4.5 download). So if we have to > resign anyway, should we go ahead and deliver this latest image too? > > 4) If we delivering a new image, maybe we should call it 4.5.1? > > As release manager, I'm embarassed, and inclined to make this right. > Please help me think this through and with the Mac stuff.. Don't be embarassed. There are a lot of possible platform variations, and not a lot of us available to test the release candidate images on all of the possible platforms. Look at it this way - ten years from now, the Squeak 4.5 image will still be a valuable artifact, and somebody somewhere will be running it, possibly for reasons that none of us can anticipate today. But none of the current operating systems, VMs, and all-in-one packages that we are using now will be in circulation at at that time. So the image is the release artifact, and all the rest is "just" packaging. Dave |
In reply to this post by Chris Muller-4
Am 28.08.2014 um 00:01 schrieb Chris Muller: > Hi guys, did anyone happen to notice that RIGHT-CLICK DOESN'T WORK in > Windows on our Squeak-4.5 release download? ..... > As release manager, I'm embarassed, and inclined to make this right. > Please help me think this through and with the Mac stuff.. > ..... Hi Chris, it got past me as I thought it was a feature. I'm used to downloading a new Squeak and finding out that the right and middle mouse button are swapped. (the right one brings up the halo) If this has ever been different since 3.6 I didn't notice. As usual something just working slips by :-)) I right click on the window frame, VM Preferences, Mouse mapping, 3 Button mouse. This swaps the mouse buttons. I just checked with a all in one downloaded in april that this sets 3ButtonMouse=1 in the ini file. Same with a 4.4 all in one I found in my download folder. No reason to be embarrassed but I'd appreciate if this gets changed because on Windows the right mouse button usually brings up the context menu. And I'd like the updates of the image included and the name changed to 4.5.1 Cheers, Herbert |
In reply to this post by Chris Muller-4
I agree with David that this shouldn't require changing the Mac release bits. But if you ever want something signed for the Mac, I'm happy to do it again. Keep up the good work, -C -- Craig Latta netjam.org +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS) |
In reply to this post by David T. Lewis
On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 9:14 PM, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 05:01:25PM -0500, Chris Muller wrote: > > Hi guys, did anyone happen to notice that RIGHT-CLICK DOESN'T WORK in > > Windows on our Squeak-4.5 release download? > > > > http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xIgjzkwaWr4J:stackoverflow.com/questions/6802219/squeak-smalltalk-why-cant-i-activate-the-do-it-menu+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us > > > > Verified. HTF did this get past our testing? Was it related to a > > last-minute inclusion of the CogVM? > > I am assuming that this is an ini file setting issue, in which case it > would be a packaging problem as opposed to a Squeak 4.5 issue. If and > when there is a Squeak 4.5.1, the designation should refer to the Squeak > image itself, not to whatever configurations may have been included in > an all-in-one package. Yes, that's what I said by #4. > If we want the all-in-one package to be presented as the primary release > artifact (not a great idea IMO), Why? Just curious.. > then it probably needs to be versioned > in some way also. I just want right-click to work for new users using Windows. > But changing an ini file setting for one of the many > possible VMs should not be mixed up with the versioning of the primary > Squeak release artifact, which is the image itself. So I'd say fix the > all-in-one file, maybe just give it a new name to reflect the update, > and let to go at that. Oh, and update the links on squeak.org as needed. I won't even bother with a new name. Done. > > Whatever -- need to put out an update. Some acquaintences of mine > > wanting to learn Squeak, following Lawson English instructional videos > > except they couldn't get the right-click menu, they sent me the link > > above indicating others having the same issue. Not a good first > > impression! > > > > 1) What is the proper fix? It seems the > > > > 3ButtonMouse=0 > > > > in the "squeak.ini" file, it should be 1 right? Changing it seems to > > clear up the issue in Windows, but so does "swapMouseButtons" in the > > image, but flipping that would foul it up for Linux so I'm thinking > > the .ini file. > > > > 2) Did we do something related to "signing" for Mac and so I suppose > > flipping that will require the new All-In-One to be resigned to work > > on Mac (?). I know nothing about Mac, please advise. > > I think that the signing issue relates only to the executable Mac VM, > so an update to the all-in-one package for a Windows ini file would not > require any update for the Mac VM. But I'm not a Mac user, so I can't > say for sure. Okay, I'll ask for a Mac tester after I've posted it. I'll rename the current one to .old first to be ready to revert, if necessary. - Chris |
On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 01:28:18PM -0500, Chris Muller wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 9:14 PM, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 05:01:25PM -0500, Chris Muller wrote: > > > Hi guys, did anyone happen to notice that RIGHT-CLICK DOESN'T WORK in > > > Windows on our Squeak-4.5 release download? > > > > > > http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xIgjzkwaWr4J:stackoverflow.com/questions/6802219/squeak-smalltalk-why-cant-i-activate-the-do-it-menu+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us > > > > > > Verified. HTF did this get past our testing? Was it related to a > > > last-minute inclusion of the CogVM? > > > > I am assuming that this is an ini file setting issue, in which case it > > would be a packaging problem as opposed to a Squeak 4.5 issue. If and > > when there is a Squeak 4.5.1, the designation should refer to the Squeak > > image itself, not to whatever configurations may have been included in > > an all-in-one package. > > Yes, that's what I said by #4. > > > If we want the all-in-one package to be presented as the primary release > > artifact (not a great idea IMO), > > Why? Just curious.. > The all-in-one package is great, both as a convenient way to provide a multi-platform Squeak, and also as quick way for a new user to try Squeak without prior knowledge of the image/changes/VM organization. However, it is not a good to deliver the latest version of Squeak to someone who already uses Squeak, and who may already have a VM and other images in use. Presumably that includes practically everyone on this mailing list. The all-in-one is a very good thing to offer in addition to the release image, and I think that the web site should explain this so that new users are encouraged to try the all-in-one. But even a first time user should be encouraged to understand the basic concept of the image-based environment. The web site should explain this (as indeed it used to do), so that people are encouraged to try Squeak in the most convenient way, and so that they are also encouraged to start grokking the strange and truly wonderful new thing they are seeing for the first time. Dave |
In reply to this post by Chris Muller-4
Works for me with CogVM and Squeak 4.5. Only had to switch buttons in the preferences. :) Like in all Squeak releases under windows... ;)
Best, Marcel |
Also works fine with the packaged VM in the Squeak 4.5 release under windows.
So, where is the problem? Best, Marcel |
Hi Marcel,
Am 29.08.2014 um 13:10 schrieb Marcel Taeumel: > Also works fine with the packaged VM in the Squeak 4.5 release under windows. > > So, where is the problem? > > exactly what you describe in your previous mail is the problem. Newbies expect the context menu when right clicking something under Windows. They don't know of the preference. BTW the preference is not optimal if you use your images on Windows and Linux. Switching to a 3 button mouse by right clicking on the Windows title bar or by editing the ini file does the trick for Windows and does not force you to re-swap mouse buttons if you copy that image to Linux (and Mac i guess). See my earlier mail on this thread. Cheers Herbert |
Yeah, but it is the same behavior as in Squeak 4.4 under Windows. Nothing new. Even 4.3 had this.
We can change that for 4.6, I suppose... but no reason for panicking here. :) I never touch the VM switch about 1 or 3 button mouses. I always use the Squeak preferences and switch the buttons because the 3-button-mouse will be supported correctly by default. Best, Marcel |
In reply to this post by David T. Lewis
> The all-in-one is a very good thing to offer in addition to the release
> image, and I think that the web site should explain this so that new users > are encouraged to try the all-in-one. But even a first time user should be > encouraged to understand the basic concept of the image-based environment. > The web site should explain this (as indeed it used to do), so that people > are encouraged to try Squeak in the most convenient way, and so that they > are also encouraged to start grokking the strange and truly wonderful new > thing they are seeing for the first time. +1 Stef |
Don't get me wrong: I am also for a portable solution. :) Right-click should raise the context menu on any platform without re-configuration.
Best, Marcel |
Heresy!
Context menus belong on the middle button. Any fule kno that. That's how Smalltalk does it, how RISC OS does it and how nature expects it. Anything else is Just Plain Wrong. /tim {insert witticism here} > On Aug 29, 2014, at 17:25, Marcel Taeumel <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Don't get me wrong: I am also for a portable solution. :) Right-click should > raise the context menu on any platform without re-configuration. > > Best, > Marcel > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-4-5-Windows-right-click-debacle-tp4775136p4775405.html > Sent from the Squeak - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > |
Yep, and that's why Windows mice always have their middle buttons on
the right side of the mouse, where they belong! frank On 29 August 2014 22:45, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote: > Heresy! > > Context menus belong on the middle button. Any fule kno that. > That's how Smalltalk does it, how RISC OS does it and how nature expects it. Anything else is Just Plain Wrong. > > /tim > {insert witticism here} > >> On Aug 29, 2014, at 17:25, Marcel Taeumel <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Don't get me wrong: I am also for a portable solution. :) Right-click should >> raise the context menu on any platform without re-configuration. >> >> Best, >> Marcel >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-4-5-Windows-right-click-debacle-tp4775136p4775405.html >> Sent from the Squeak - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> > |
In reply to this post by timrowledge
:D
"Middle buttons" are clickable mouse wheels. At most, a click here starts a scroll-by-move mode. I suppose that was sarcasm. ;) Best, Marcel |
On 30.08.2014, at 12:35, Marcel Taeumel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> "Middle buttons" are clickable mouse wheels. At most, a click here starts a > scroll-by-move mode. Actually you can set the wheel-click to produce a real middle-button-click event (instead of the useless scroll menu thingy). Which is what you should do as a Smalltalker ;) Even my Apple Magic Mouse (the one without any buttons) is set to produce real middle and right click events. What Frank was referring to is that Microsoft labels its mouse buttons 1-3-2 so the "second" mouse button is on the right. This is really the source of all the confusion. What the VM needs to give you is red-yellow-blue for left-middle-right. See the FAQ http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/897 Our image's swapMouseButtons preference is enabled by default. That is correct, in Squeak we want the right mouse button to bring up the context menu (yellow). In Etoys, it is disabled, right-click gives you the halo (blue). I think what needs to change is the Windows VM's default mapping. Not quite sure about the modifier processing in EventSensor>>processEvent:. The button swapping is done via ButtonDecodeTable, but then the modifier (ctrl/alt) mapping is applied (except if on a Mac, because the Mac VM's Info.plist file lets you specify exactly which color should be generate for which button-modifier combo). And then it is applied again in processMouseEvent: to make the MVC buttons. Do the Windows and Linux VMs still rely on that? - Bert - smime.p7s (5K) Download Attachment |
Ugh, it's just such a frustration. I put people onto us over the internet and they ask me which mouse button they're supposed to push, and I'm just at a loss to help, because my mouse only has one button, and the keyboard buttons one is supposed to hold to get the context menu are different too. More seriously: David's argument is strengthened somewhat by the fact that there are still places in the universe where a few more bits worth of download can be very expensive (for example, to a teacher in orbit or an astronaut in a developing nation. Or maybe Scratch that, reverse it.)
For most newcomers, the all-in-one reduces friction. For most experienced users, it's a pain in the ass and a waste of bandwidth. These two facts put tension on what to release. I'm very grateful for the all-in-one, and the people who make it possible. I think with Frank's continuous integration, we should be able to have the cake and eat it too, though, but that's just a thought.
--Casey On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 5:05 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
|
In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
> Our image's swapMouseButtons preference is enabled by default. That is correct, in Squeak we want the right mouse button to bring up the context menu (yellow). In Etoys, it is disabled, right-click gives you the halo (blue).
> > I think what needs to change is the Windows VM's default mapping. For 4.5 All-In-One, It sounds like we're all in agreement that we want Squeak to behave consistently across platforms out of the box, which means twiddling that 3ButtonMouse setting in the .ini file. So, now that enough people have weighed in, I will try to do that today. PS -- Re: the All-In-One being a PITA: Isn't it 10X more important for the PITA to be directed at experienced users instead of new users? And, besides, I never really found it to be a PITA anyway, because experienced users all know where the FTP site for the image is, and heck, they're probably just using trunk anyway. So, I don't really buy the argument that All-In-One is a PITA for anyone.... |
On 31.08.2014, at 18:03, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Our image's swapMouseButtons preference is enabled by default. That is correct, in Squeak we want the right mouse button to bring up the context menu (yellow). In Etoys, it is disabled, right-click gives you the halo (blue). >> >> I think what needs to change is the Windows VM's default mapping. > > For 4.5 All-In-One, It sounds like we're all in agreement that we want > Squeak to behave consistently across platforms out of the box, which > means twiddling that 3ButtonMouse setting in the .ini file. > > So, now that enough people have weighed in, I will try to do that today. Thanks :) > PS -- Re: the All-In-One being a PITA: Isn't it 10X more important > for the PITA to be directed at experienced users instead of new users? > And, besides, I never really found it to be a PITA anyway, because > experienced users all know where the FTP site for the image is, and > heck, they're probably just using trunk anyway. So, I don't really > buy the argument that All-In-One is a PITA for anyone.... +1 Minor point: It would help if the "Downloads page" mention in the paragraph above the "Download" button on our homepage was a link. And on the downloads page, have at least a link to the current image+sources zip, a link to the bleeding edge trunk image (I could not find a description of how to get a trunk image), a link to the file repo for older versions, and possibly a blurb explaining the meaning of all that to the uninitiated. - Bert - smime.p7s (5K) Download Attachment |
Hoi-- Chris writes: > ...I don't really buy the argument that All-In-One is a PITA for > anyone... I don't either. I think we should have a single artifact which can acquire further bits of itself as necessary, appropriate for where it finds itself installed. I'm working on that. Bert writes: > It would help if the "Downloads page" mention in the paragraph above > the "Download" button on our homepage was a link. And on the > downloads page, have at least a link to the current image+sources > zip, a link to the bleeding edge trunk image (I could not find a > description of how to get a trunk image), a link to the file repo for > older versions, and possibly a blurb explaining the meaning of all > that to the uninitiated. Yes. -C -- Craig Latta netjam.org +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS) |
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