Squeak 4.5 Windows right-click debacle

Hi guys, did anyone happen to notice that RIGHT-CLICK DOESN'T WORK in
Windows on our Squeak-4.5 release download?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xIgjzkwaWr4J:stackoverflow.com/questions/6802219/squeak-smalltalk-why-cant-i-activate-the-do-it-menu+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Verified.  HTF did this get past our testing?  Was it related to a
last-minute inclusion of the CogVM?

Whatever -- need to put out an update.  Some acquaintences of mine
wanting to learn Squeak, following Lawson English instructional videos
except they couldn't get the right-click menu, they sent me the link
above indicating others having the same issue.  Not a good first
impression!

1) What is the proper fix?  It seems the

   3ButtonMouse=0

in the "squeak.ini" file, it should be 1 right?  Changing it seems to
clear up the issue in Windows, but so does "swapMouseButtons" in the
image, but flipping that would foul it up for Linux so I'm thinking
the .ini file.

2) Did we do something related to "signing" for Mac and so I suppose
flipping that will require the new All-In-One to be resigned to work
on Mac (?).  I know nothing about Mac, please advise.

3) If we have to resign anyway, 4.5 has had a few updates taking it to
13687 instead of 13680 (current 4.5 download).  So if we have to
resign anyway, should we go ahead and deliver this latest image too?

4) If we delivering a new image, maybe we should call it 4.5.1?

As release manager, I'm embarassed, and inclined to make this right.
Please help me think this through and with the Mac stuff..

On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 05:01:25PM -0500, Chris Muller wrote:
> Hi guys, did anyone happen to notice that RIGHT-CLICK DOESN'T WORK in
> Windows on our Squeak-4.5 release download?
>
> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xIgjzkwaWr4J:stackoverflow.com/questions/6802219/squeak-smalltalk-why-cant-i-activate-the-do-it-menu+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
>
> Verified.  HTF did this get past our testing?  Was it related to a
> last-minute inclusion of the CogVM?

I am assuming that this is an ini file setting issue, in which case it
would be a packaging problem as opposed to a Squeak 4.5 issue. If and
when there is a Squeak 4.5.1, the designation should refer to the Squeak
image itself, not to whatever configurations may have been included in
an all-in-one package.

If we want the all-in-one package to be presented as the primary release
artifact (not a great idea IMO), then it probably needs to be versioned
in some way also. But changing an ini file setting for one of the many
possible VMs should not be mixed up with the versioning of the primary
Squeak release artifact, which is the image itself. So I'd say fix the
all-in-one file, maybe just give it a new name to reflect the update,
and let to go at that. Oh, and update the links on squeak.org as needed.


I think that the signing issue relates only to the executable Mac VM,
so an update to the all-in-one package for a Windows ini file would not
require any update for the Mac VM. But I'm not a Mac user, so I can't
say for sure.

>
> 3) If we have to resign anyway, 4.5 has had a few updates taking it to
> 13687 instead of 13680 (current 4.5 download).  So if we have to
> resign anyway, should we go ahead and deliver this latest image too?
>
> 4) If we delivering a new image, maybe we should call it 4.5.1?
>
> As release manager, I'm embarassed, and inclined to make this right.
> Please help me think this through and with the Mac stuff..

Don't be embarassed. There are a lot of possible platform variations,
and not a lot of us available to test the release candidate images on
all of the possible platforms.

Look at it this way - ten years from now, the Squeak 4.5 image will still
be a valuable artifact, and somebody somewhere will be running it, possibly
for reasons that none of us can anticipate today. But none of the current
operating systems, VMs, and all-in-one packages that we are using now will
be in circulation at at that time. So the image is the release artifact,
and all the rest is "just" packaging.

Dave

Am 28.08.2014 um 00:01 schrieb Chris Muller:
> Hi guys, did anyone happen to notice that RIGHT-CLICK DOESN'T WORK in
> Windows on our Squeak-4.5 release download?
.....
> As release manager, I'm embarassed, and inclined to make this right.
> Please help me think this through and with the Mac stuff..
>
.....
Hi Chris,

it got past me as I thought it was a feature. I'm used to downloading a
new Squeak and finding out that the right and middle mouse button are
swapped. (the right one brings up the halo)

If this has ever been different since 3.6 I didn't notice. As usual
something just working slips by :-))

I right click on the window frame, VM Preferences, Mouse mapping, 3
Button mouse. This swaps the mouse buttons.

I just checked with a all in one downloaded in april that this sets
3ButtonMouse=1 in the ini file. Same with a 4.4 all in one I found in my
download folder.

No reason to be embarrassed but I'd appreciate if this gets changed
because on Windows the right mouse button usually brings up the context
menu.

And I'd like the updates of the image included and the name changed to 4.5.1

Cheers,

Herbert

     I agree with David that this shouldn't require changing the Mac
release bits. But if you ever want something signed for the Mac, I'm
happy to do it again.


     Keep up the good work,

-C

--
Craig Latta
netjam.org
+31   6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
+ 1 415  287 3547 (no SMS)

On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 9:14 PM, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, that's what I said by #4.

> If we want the all-in-one package to be presented as the primary release
> artifact (not a great idea IMO),

Why?  Just curious..

> then it probably needs to be versioned
> in some way also.

I just want right-click to work for new users using Windows.

> But changing an ini file setting for one of the many
> possible VMs should not be mixed up with the versioning of the primary
> Squeak release artifact, which is the image itself. So I'd say fix the
> all-in-one file, maybe just give it a new name to reflect the update,
> and let to go at that. Oh, and update the links on squeak.org as needed.

I won't even bother with a new name.  Done.

Okay, I'll ask for a Mac tester after I've posted it.  I'll rename the
current one to .old first to be ready to revert, if necessary.

 - Chris

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 01:28:18PM -0500, Chris Muller wrote:
The all-in-one package is great, both as a convenient way to provide a
multi-platform Squeak, and also as quick way for a new user to try Squeak
without prior knowledge of the image/changes/VM organization.

However, it is not a good to deliver the latest version of Squeak to
someone who already uses Squeak, and who may already have a VM and other
images in use. Presumably that includes practically everyone on this mailing
list.

The all-in-one is a very good thing to offer in addition to the release
image, and I think that the web site should explain this so that new users
are encouraged to try the all-in-one. But even a first time user should be
encouraged to understand the basic concept of the image-based environment.
The web site should explain this (as indeed it used to do), so that people
are encouraged to try Squeak in the most convenient way, and so that they
are also encouraged to start grokking the strange and truly wonderful new
thing they are seeing for the first time.

Dave

Works for me with CogVM and Squeak 4.5. Only had to switch buttons in the preferences. :) Like in all Squeak releases under windows... ;)

Best,
Marcel

Also works fine with the packaged VM in the Squeak 4.5 release under windows.

So, where is the problem?

Best,
Marcel

Hi Marcel,

Am 29.08.2014 um 13:10 schrieb Marcel Taeumel:
> Also works fine with the packaged VM in the Squeak 4.5 release under windows.
>
> So, where is the problem?
>
>
exactly what you describe in your previous mail is the problem. Newbies
expect the context menu when right clicking something under Windows.
They don't know of the preference.

BTW the preference is not optimal if you use your images on Windows and
Linux. Switching to a 3 button mouse by right clicking on the Windows
title bar  or by editing the ini file does the trick for Windows and
does not force you to re-swap mouse buttons if you copy that image to
Linux (and Mac i guess). See my earlier mail on this thread.

Cheers

Herbert

Yeah, but it is the same behavior as in Squeak 4.4 under Windows. Nothing new. Even 4.3 had this.

We can change that for 4.6, I suppose... but no reason for panicking here. :)

I never touch the VM switch about 1 or 3 button mouses. I always use the Squeak preferences and switch the buttons because the 3-button-mouse will be supported correctly by default.

Best,
Marcel

> The all-in-one is a very good thing to offer in addition to the release
> image, and I think that the web site should explain this so that new users
> are encouraged to try the all-in-one. But even a first time user should be
> encouraged to understand the basic concept of the image-based environment.
> The web site should explain this (as indeed it used to do), so that people
> are encouraged to try Squeak in the most convenient way, and so that they
> are also encouraged to start grokking the strange and truly wonderful new
> thing they are seeing for the first time.

+1

Stef

Don't get me wrong: I am also for a portable solution. :) Right-click should raise the context menu on any platform without re-configuration.

Best,
Marcel

Heresy!

Context menus belong on the middle button. Any fule kno that.
That's how Smalltalk does it, how RISC OS does it and how nature expects it. Anything else is Just Plain Wrong.

/tim
{insert witticism here}

Yep, and that's why Windows mice always have their middle buttons on
the right side of the mouse, where they belong!

frank

On 29 August 2014 22:45, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote:

:D

"Middle buttons" are clickable mouse wheels. At most, a click here starts a scroll-by-move mode.

I suppose that was sarcasm. ;)

Best,
Marcel

On 30.08.2014, at 12:35, Marcel Taeumel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> "Middle buttons" are clickable mouse wheels. At most, a click here starts a
> scroll-by-move mode.

Actually you can set the wheel-click to produce a real middle-button-click event (instead of the useless scroll menu thingy). Which is what you should do as a Smalltalker ;) Even my Apple Magic Mouse (the one without any buttons) is set to produce real middle and right click events.

What Frank was referring to is that Microsoft labels its mouse buttons 1-3-2 so the "second" mouse button is on the right. This is really the source of all the confusion.

What the VM needs to give you is red-yellow-blue for left-middle-right. See the FAQ http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/897

Our image's swapMouseButtons preference is enabled by default. That is correct, in Squeak we want the right mouse button to bring up the context menu (yellow). In Etoys, it is disabled, right-click gives you the halo (blue).

I think what needs to change is the Windows VM's default mapping.

Not quite sure about the modifier processing in EventSensor>>processEvent:. The button swapping is done via ButtonDecodeTable, but then the modifier (ctrl/alt) mapping is applied (except if on a Mac, because the Mac VM's Info.plist file lets you specify exactly which color should be generate for which button-modifier combo). And then it is applied again in processMouseEvent: to make the MVC buttons. Do the Windows and Linux VMs still rely on that?

- Bert -

> Our image's swapMouseButtons preference is enabled by default. That is correct, in Squeak we want the right mouse button to bring up the context menu (yellow). In Etoys, it is disabled, right-click gives you the halo (blue).
>
> I think what needs to change is the Windows VM's default mapping.

For 4.5 All-In-One, It sounds like we're all in agreement that we want
Squeak to behave consistently across platforms out of the box, which
means twiddling that 3ButtonMouse setting in the .ini file.

So, now that enough people have weighed in, I will try to do that today.

PS -- Re: the All-In-One being a PITA:  Isn't it 10X more important
for the PITA to be directed at experienced users instead of new users?
 And, besides, I never really found it to be a PITA anyway, because
experienced users all know where the FTP site for the image is, and
heck, they're probably just using trunk anyway.  So, I don't really
buy the argument that All-In-One is a PITA for anyone....

On 31.08.2014, at 18:03, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Our image's swapMouseButtons preference is enabled by default. That is correct, in Squeak we want the right mouse button to bring up the context menu (yellow). In Etoys, it is disabled, right-click gives you the halo (blue).
>>
>> I think what needs to change is the Windows VM's default mapping.
>
> For 4.5 All-In-One, It sounds like we're all in agreement that we want
> Squeak to behave consistently across platforms out of the box, which
> means twiddling that 3ButtonMouse setting in the .ini file.
>
> So, now that enough people have weighed in, I will try to do that today.

Thanks :)

> PS -- Re: the All-In-One being a PITA:  Isn't it 10X more important
> for the PITA to be directed at experienced users instead of new users?
> And, besides, I never really found it to be a PITA anyway, because
> experienced users all know where the FTP site for the image is, and
> heck, they're probably just using trunk anyway.  So, I don't really
> buy the argument that All-In-One is a PITA for anyone....

+1

Minor point: It would help if the "Downloads page" mention in the paragraph above the "Download" button on our homepage was a link. And on the downloads page, have at least a link to the current image+sources zip, a link to the bleeding edge trunk image (I could not find a description of how to get a trunk image), a link to the file repo for older versions, and possibly a blurb explaining the meaning of all that to the uninitiated.

- Bert -

Hoi--

     Chris writes:

> ...I don't really buy the argument that All-In-One is a PITA for
> anyone...

     I don't either. I think we should have a single artifact which can
acquire further bits of itself as necessary, appropriate for where it
finds itself installed. I'm working on that.

     Bert writes:

> It would help if the "Downloads page" mention in the paragraph above
> the "Download" button on our homepage was a link. And on the
> downloads page, have at least a link to the current image+sources
> zip, a link to the bleeding edge trunk image (I could not find a
> description of how to get a trunk image), a link to the file repo for
> older versions, and possibly a blurb explaining the meaning of all
> that to the uninitiated.

     Yes.


-C

--
Craig Latta
netjam.org
+31   6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
+ 1 415  287 3547 (no SMS)