Squeak 4.x should adopt Pharo 1.0

> Dear All,
>
> As far as I see it the only sensible way ahead for squeak 3.11 is to
> adopt Pharo 1.0 as the next base version of squeak (i.e. 4.0), and to
> begin a series of initiatives to promote compatibility with squeak
> pieces that pharo doesn't support.
>
> The previous squeak 3.11 vision accepted, and now rejected, by the
> squeak board was to develop a process that would allow squeak to harvest
> the contributions of all the other forks, or other major initiatives,
> and for significant contributions to be shared by all the forks.
>
> All of a sudden there was an "oh no pharo is ahead of us" panic that
> ensued last month as a result of new squeak-dev people that were not
> involved in, nor seemed aware of the goals of the 3.11 process. Within
> this process Pharo may simply be viewed as a research project carried
> out on behalf of the wider squeak community, that will be harvestable in
> good time.

> El lun, 10-08-2009 a las 21:07 +0100, Keith Hodges escribió:
>> Dear All,
>>
>> As far as I see it the only sensible way ahead for squeak 3.11 is to
>> adopt Pharo 1.0 as the next base version of squeak (i.e. 4.0), and to
>> begin a series of initiatives to promote compatibility with squeak
>> pieces that pharo doesn't support.
>>
>> The previous squeak 3.11 vision accepted, and now rejected, by the
>> squeak board was to develop a process that would allow squeak to  
>> harvest
>> the contributions of all the other forks, or other major initiatives,
>> and for significant contributions to be shared by all the forks.
>>
>> All of a sudden there was an "oh no pharo is ahead of us" panic that
>> ensued last month as a result of new squeak-dev people that were not
>> involved in, nor seemed aware of the goals of the 3.11 process.  
>> Within
>> this process Pharo may simply be viewed as a research project carried
>> out on behalf of the wider squeak community, that will be  
>> harvestable in
>> good time.
>
> I don't agree with you on this point. Pharo has its own merits to  
> exists
> and it didn't fork as a "research project" for the squeak community.
> As its web page states, its goal is:
>
> "to deliver a clean, innovative, open-source *Smalltalk*"
>
> emphasis mine. Not a clean Squeak.
> As the day pass the foundations grow stronger and itself gains more  
> and
> more identity and independence. This, if nothing really big happens on
> Squeak, will attract more developers and new users. There is no date  
> yet
> to deliver a new version of Squeak, and this, together with the Pharo
> 1.0 release, will be less energy to try to maintain code for several
> forks and several packages will choose to support the one with more
> *apparent* users.
> What I want to say is, there is, as each day pass, less homesick for  
> the
> past and more joy for the future.
>
>
>>
>> However now that this idea is no longer going to be developed, we  
>> need
>> to limit the number of diverging active forks as much as possible,
>> rather than creating new ones ("trunk" makes the problem worse not
>> better).
>
> This is a point that I have never accepted of your thesis. There is no
> way to put all the "forks" in the same
> process/mindshare/goals/repositories. It is impossible. Even if they  
> do
> it just for upsetting people. This isn't going to happen.
>
> The forks, as the young people, want to be free, independents, of its
> parents. They don't want to be like their parents project but a little
> different. They WANT to be better (whatever this means to the fork)  
> and
> independent. They want to learn their own lessons.
>
> If for accident they happen to be compatible good, but if not, well,  
> as
> the Linux community can show, there can not be a single distro  
> neither a
> single code base that runs in every distro. How they solved it, by
> assinging mainteiner of each package that tracks the upstream project
> and adapt it to the specific distro. Something like this will happen
> with squeak/pharo/cuis. The upstream developers will have its
> development platform but someone else will adapt it to other  
> platforms.
>
>
>
>> Once the output of "trunk" is released in whatever form we will
>> then have yet another base image to manage code for, and I don't  
>> think
>> that that is an acceptable outcome.
>>
>> When it comes to the elections next year, if there is anyone who  
>> would
>> like to run on the "Squeak to adopt Pharo" ticket, then I will vote  
>> for
>> them.
>>
>
> If this happen, then good for both of the communities. But until this
> happen, most new users will learn by the lists about pharo and when
> trying and comparing it to squeak, will make its choice. Some of them
> will stay with squeak, some of them will try again squeak when a new
> release is made and some of them will stay with pharo for ever.
>
> One (at least me) can't be jumping or using several smalltalk versions
> (the same way that I don't like to administer linux of several  
> flavors,
> it add unnecessary complexity and work).
>
>> best regards
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> p.p.s. Bob is not going to be released as open source, if you would  
>> like
>> the ability to build your images daily, and run the test suites  
>> against
>> your deliverables, then please do email me for licensing terms.
>>
>
> This is really a sad thing to read. Of course it is your decision, bad
> for us as it sound as Bob was a very good piece of software. On the
> other side, this sounds also like a emotional response more than a
> rational one. But if the community can't use your code, well, like the
> BitKeeper on the Linux kernel code case, someone will have to think
> something.
>
>
> --
> Miguel Cobá
> http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
>
>
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> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

>> BTW, some of us Second LIfe types are starting to play with
>> Pharo/Seaside and various little issues keep popping up. I'm a total
>> Smalltalk
>> noob, but when I can't work through an example from the Squeak by
>> Example book, that suggests there's some interesting features that  
>> should
>> be looked at...
>>    
>
> A new version of SBE named pharo by example is under preparation.
> Now do not hesitate to ask question even if you think that they look  
> silly.
> Silly questions do not exist.
>
> Stef
>
>  

>> Great to hear. However, pharo gets upset by putting 'eureka'. 'EUREKA'
>> into the method finder.
>>
>> Says that is EVIL.
>>    
>
> Interesting bug. The problem comes from the deprecation of  
> String>>asCharacter
>
> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1062
>
>  
>> I gotta assume that that is just a simple bug, right, or is that
>> facility no longer to be supported for some reason.
>>    
>
> Apparently, a number of deprecations in String are problematic
>
> Try: 'abc' . 'd'. 'abcd'
>
> Alexandre
>  

> Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>>> BTW, some of us Second LIfe types are starting to play with
>>> Pharo/Seaside and various little issues keep popping up. I'm a total
>>> Smalltalk
>>> noob, but when I can't work through an example from the Squeak by
>>> Example book, that suggests there's some interesting features that
>>> should
>>> be looked at...
>>>
>>
>> A new version of SBE named pharo by example is under preparation.
>> Now do not hesitate to ask question even if you think that they look
>> silly.
>> Silly questions do not exist.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>
> Great to hear. However, pharo gets upset by putting 'eureka'. 'EUREKA'
> into the method finder.
>
> Says that is EVIL.
>
>
> I gotta assume that that is just a simple bug, right, or is that
> facility no longer to be supported for some reason.
>
>
> L
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

> Alexandre Bergel wrote:
>>> Great to hear. However, pharo gets upset by putting 'eureka'.  
>>> 'EUREKA'
>>> into the method finder.
>>>
>>> Says that is EVIL.
>>>
>>
>> Interesting bug. The problem comes from the deprecation of
>> String>>asCharacter
>>
>> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1062
>>
>>
>>> I gotta assume that that is just a simple bug, right, or is that
>>> facility no longer to be supported for some reason.
>>>
>>
>> Apparently, a number of deprecations in String are problematic
>>
>> Try: 'abc' . 'd'. 'abcd'
>>
>> Alexandre
>>
>
>
> I get    ByteString(SequenceableCollection)>>upTo: has been  
> deprecated.
> Use #copyUpTo:
>
>
> Lawson
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

>> Great to hear. However, pharo gets upset by putting 'eureka'.  
>> 'EUREKA'
>> into the method finder.
>>
>> Says that is EVIL.
>
> Interesting bug. The problem comes from the deprecation of
> String>>asCharacter
>
> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1062
>
>> I gotta assume that that is just a simple bug, right, or is that
>> facility no longer to be supported for some reason.
>
> Apparently, a number of deprecations in String are problematic
>
> Try: 'abc' . 'd'. 'abcd'

>
> Alexandre
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

> Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>> Which image are you using?
>> Because on mine = core 10371
>> deprecatedWarning  = on
>> I do not get them.
>>
>> Stef
>
> Pharo0.1
> Latest update: #10343
>
> will try running updater. Likely that I downloaded a pristine copy  
> and started using it without updating first.
>
>
>
> Lawson
>
>

> Oops that old.
> I suggest you to download a more recent version
> Mine is already old :)
> Let us know if you still have problem. It may be one package loaded in  
> the pharo (non core) that is
> doing something fishy.
>
> Stef
>
>  

> If you proceed when getting evil and afterwards the warning that the  
> method shouldn't be used don't you get String>>asUppercase?
>
>
>
> Em 11/08/2009 19:03, Stéphane Ducasse < [hidden email]  
> > escreveu:
>
>
> 'eureka' . ' EUREKA'
>
> I get no single method....
>

>  Pharo1.0beta latest update: #10413.
>
> BTW: it's not possible to copy text from the About this System  
> Dialog...
>
> Here in Linux works using ctrl + c   not only to a workspace (inside  
> image) but also to an external program.
>
>
>
>
> Em 11/08/2009 19:05, Stéphane Ducasse < [hidden email]  
> > escreveu:
>
>
> Which image are you using?
> Because on mine = core 10371
> deprecatedWarning  = on
> I do not get them.
>
> Stef