Squeak Forks Popularity & Trends Estimate

> There's no right or wrong answer to the following three questions.  
> And,
> every response is meaningful, because it helps reveal the general  
> sense
> of direction that the community is feeling.
>
> ***********************
> Question #1: Of the various Squeak forks (such as Croquet, Pharo,  
> etc.),
> what is your feeling of their relative popularities at this point in
> time, and how does that compare with the current popularity of the  
> base
> Squeak distribution?
>
> Question #2: This is related to the above-- what is your feeling of  
> the
> relative popularity *trend* of each of the forks, and how does that
> compare with your feeling of the *trend* of the future popularity of  
> the
> base Squeak distribution?
>
> Question #3: What is your justification for your answers to the above
> two questions?
> ************************
>
> I'll begin with my own answers...
>
> ...I'm beginning to feel like the Pharo fork currently now has maybe  
> 50%
> or more of the popularity of the base Squeak distro, and I'm beginning
> to feel like Pharo is headed to become the dominant distribution in  
> the
> future, surpassing the original Squeak distro.  And I base that  
> feeling
> on several observations:
>
> 1. The email traffic comparison on the "Pharo-project" email list
> compared to the email traffic on "The general-purpose Squeak  
> developers
> list", and the observed trend in such traffic.
>
> 2. The number of developers posting on the Pharo-project email list.
>
> 3. The specific developers posting on the Pharo-project email list
> (known Squeakers who have contributed heavily to Squeak in the past).
>
> 4. The fact that Seaside development has moved to Pharo.
>
> At one time I wondered if Croquet would become the dominant Squeak  
> fork,
> for the simple reason that it had a business organization "officially"
> supporting it, similar to what Squeak had in the Disney days.  But  
> now I
> think I would bet my money on Pharo.
>
> What do you think?  And why?
>
> Also, remember, there's certainly nothing wrong with several  
> "dominant"
> forks existing.  But of those, one of them will still be the most
> popular overall.  And I'm curious about thoughts of which one that is,
> and which one that will become, and why you think so.
>
> Nevin
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

> There's no right or wrong answer to the following three questions.  
> And,
> every response is meaningful, because it helps reveal the general
> sense of direction that the community is feeling.
>
> ***********************
> Question #1: Of the various Squeak forks (such as Croquet, Pharo,
> etc.), what is your feeling of their relative popularities at this
> point in time, and how does that compare with the current popularity
> of the base Squeak distribution?
>
> Question #2: This is related to the above-- what is your feeling of
> the relative popularity *trend* of each of the forks, and how does
> that compare with your feeling of the *trend* of the future popularity
> of the base Squeak distribution?
>
> Question #3: What is your justification for your answers to the above
> two questions?
> ************************
>
> I'll begin with my own answers...
>
> ...I'm beginning to feel like the Pharo fork currently now has maybe
> 50% or more of the popularity of the base Squeak distro, and I'm
> beginning to feel like Pharo is headed to become the dominant
> distribution in the future, surpassing the original Squeak distro.  
> And I base that feeling on several observations:
>
> 1. The email traffic comparison on the "Pharo-project" email list
> compared to the email traffic on "The general-purpose Squeak
> developers list", and the observed trend in such traffic.
>
> 2. The number of developers posting on the Pharo-project email list.
>
> 3. The specific developers posting on the Pharo-project email list
> (known Squeakers who have contributed heavily to Squeak in the past).
>
> 4. The fact that Seaside development has moved to Pharo.
>
> At one time I wondered if Croquet would become the dominant Squeak
> fork, for the simple reason that it had a business organization
> "officially"
> supporting it, similar to what Squeak had in the Disney days.  But now
> I think I would bet my money on Pharo.
>
> What do you think?  And why?
>
> Also, remember, there's certainly nothing wrong with several
> "dominant"
> forks existing.  But of those, one of them will still be the most
> popular overall.  And I'm curious about thoughts of which one that is,
> and which one that will become, and why you think so.
>
> Nevin
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:31 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
> Hi nevin
>
> our goal is not predominancy :) It was never. I would be happy that
> squeak offers a really good multimedia
> platform. Our goal is to deliver good open source smalltalk.
> Our goal is to get agile, rethink the system, use good software
> engineering practices (systematic smallLnt rules),
> tests....
> We want to propose/accept/evaluate new solutions:
>        first class package,
>        first class instance variables, better refactoring support,
>        may be modules, security, new compiler....
>
> Smalltalk deserves a clean and powerful implementation and
> we will work on that hard.
>
> Stef
>
> PS: you can forward this answer to squeak-dev if you feel the need.
>
> On Jul 6, 2009, at 3:17 AM, Nevin Pratt wrote:
>
> > There's no right or wrong answer to the following three questions.
> > And,
> > every response is meaningful, because it helps reveal the general
> > sense
> > of direction that the community is feeling.
> >
> > ***********************
> > Question #1: Of the various Squeak forks (such as Croquet, Pharo,
> > etc.),
> > what is your feeling of their relative popularities at this point in
> > time, and how does that compare with the current popularity of the
> > base
> > Squeak distribution?
> >
> > Question #2: This is related to the above-- what is your feeling of
> > the
> > relative popularity *trend* of each of the forks, and how does that
> > compare with your feeling of the *trend* of the future popularity of
> > the
> > base Squeak distribution?
> >
> > Question #3: What is your justification for your answers to the  
> above
> > two questions?
> > ************************
> >
> > I'll begin with my own answers...
> >
> > ...I'm beginning to feel like the Pharo fork currently now has maybe
> > 50%
> > or more of the popularity of the base Squeak distro, and I'm  
> beginning
> > to feel like Pharo is headed to become the dominant distribution in
> > the
> > future, surpassing the original Squeak distro.  And I base that
> > feeling
> > on several observations:
> >
> > 1. The email traffic comparison on the "Pharo-project" email list
> > compared to the email traffic on "The general-purpose Squeak
> > developers
> > list", and the observed trend in such traffic.
> >
> > 2. The number of developers posting on the Pharo-project email list.
> >
> > 3. The specific developers posting on the Pharo-project email list
> > (known Squeakers who have contributed heavily to Squeak in the  
> past).
> >
> > 4. The fact that Seaside development has moved to Pharo.
> >
> > At one time I wondered if Croquet would become the dominant Squeak
> > fork,
> > for the simple reason that it had a business organization  
> "officially"
> > supporting it, similar to what Squeak had in the Disney days.  But
> > now I
> > think I would bet my money on Pharo.
> >
> > What do you think?  And why?
> >
> > Also, remember, there's certainly nothing wrong with several
> > "dominant"
> > forks existing.  But of those, one of them will still be the most
> > popular overall.  And I'm curious about thoughts of which one that  
> is,
> > and which one that will become, and why you think so.
> >
> > Nevin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pharo-project mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

>
> Hello everyone,
>
> 1. Whichever fork is most professional will win.  I believe this was one of
> the goals of the Pharo project, so I'd have to say Pharo will eventually
> lead.
>
> 2. Smalltalk in all its forms will fail unless it can grab developer
> interest from outside the current community.  Pharo may be better than
> Squeak, but if everyone moves from Squeak to Pharo, your audience is still
> too small to be significant.
>
> I'm a web-application developer (Django, GAE) and self-taught Python coder.
> I learned Python because it was easy, and there is a wealth of information
> available on the internet.  If I have any problem in Python, I simply type
> 'python issue' into Google and within a few clicks I'm usually looking at
> the answer.  When I tried to learn Smalltalk, it was intensely frustrating.
> There were no on-line resources, no tutorials, no explanations.
>
> I think the real question is, "Is Smalltalk a better language than Python?"
> By better, I mean, "Can I get done more coding tasks faster, in a more
> sustainable way?"
>
> Right now, the answer to this question is a resounding 'No'.  But that
> answer might change with a slick Smalltalk package, and an abundance of
> developer resources.  As it is, Smalltalk is a language for eccentrics.  But
> it doesn't need to be that way.
>
> All of this to say that I really like the beautiful simplicity of
> Smalltalk's main paradigm - Message Passing.
>
> It's simple.  It's elegant.  But learning it is a stone bitch, and once
> you've learned it, it has only limited value (compared, for example, to the
> wealth of things one can do in Python).  I wish this would change.
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Squeak-Forks-Popularity---Trends-Estimate-tp3211130p3232572.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>

> I'm a web-application developer (Django, GAE) and self-taught Python  
> coder.
> I learned Python because it was easy, and there is a wealth of  
> information
> available on the internet.  If I have any problem in Python, I  
> simply type
> 'python issue' into Google and within a few clicks I'm usually  
> looking at
> the answer.  When I tried to learn Smalltalk, it was intensely  
> frustrating.
> There were no on-line resources, no tutorials, no explanations.

> I think the real question is, "Is Smalltalk a better language than  
> Python?"
> By better, I mean, "Can I get done more coding tasks faster, in a more
> sustainable way?"
>
> Right now, the answer to this question is a resounding 'No'.  But that
> answer might change with a slick Smalltalk package, and an abundance  
> of
> developer resources.  As it is, Smalltalk is a language for  
> eccentrics.  But
> it doesn't need to be that way.
>
> All of this to say that I really like the beautiful simplicity of
> Smalltalk's main paradigm - Message Passing.
>
> It's simple.  It's elegant.  But learning it is a stone bitch, and  
> once
> you've learned it, it has only limited value (compared, for example,  
> to the
> wealth of things one can do in Python).  I wish this would change.

> I would insert the phrase "for you" several times into your post. That
> is, is Python a better language (for me) at this time. Or, was Python
> an easier language (for me) to learn than Smalltalk.
>
> If you come late enough to the party (and the party is large enough),
> you can Google for all your answers. Smalltalk's popularity spiked in
> the early 90s (until Java popped its bubble). You couldn't Google for
> Smalltalk answers then largely due to the lack of Google ;-).
>
> I learned Smalltalk just after its peak (or maybe at its peak, hard to
> say). I'd seen Java first and even learned how to build simple apps.
> By then, I already knew C, C++, and Pascal. I cut my teeth on
> Commodores (3584 BASIC BYTES FREE!), Apples, and Ataris.
>
> Smalltalk was easy for me, but there were many resources available  
> to me:
> First, (and probably most important) a paying job writing Smalltalk.
> 60+ hours a week of paid practice doesn't hurt.
> Access to commercial Smalltalks (VisualAge and VisualWorks) and an
> employer to pay the $2K-$5K developer license fees.
> Time working with 50+ Smalltalkers all working on the same project.
> An active and growing Smalltalk Users Group in my city.
> An active subscription to the Smalltalk Report magazine (with great
> articles by guys like Kent Beck).
> Access to all of the back issues of the Smalltalk Report.
> Many printed Smalltalk manuals from IBM and ParcPlace.
> Dozens of IBM Redbooks showing how to do just about anything you would
> need in the enterprise.
>
> I think Andy Bower had it right - "Smalltalk is dangerous. It is a
> drug. My advice to you would be don't try it; it could ruin your
> life." It certainly ruined me for most other languages. I've learned
> Java, Ruby, Python, and Perl in that order since Smalltalk. Java,
> Ruby, and Perl were for work and Python was a curiosity. I don't use
> any of them when I have a choice because I'm so much more productive
> (and happy) in Smalltalk.
>
> I love Pharo because it is working to make a better Smalltalk. I'm
> lucky today because I get to choose my tools at work which means I get
> to use Pharo!
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Robert  
> Peters<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> 1. Whichever fork is most professional will win.  I believe this  
>> was one of
>> the goals of the Pharo project, so I'd have to say Pharo will  
>> eventually
>> lead.
>>
>> 2. Smalltalk in all its forms will fail unless it can grab developer
>> interest from outside the current community.  Pharo may be better  
>> than
>> Squeak, but if everyone moves from Squeak to Pharo, your audience  
>> is still
>> too small to be significant.
>>
>> I'm a web-application developer (Django, GAE) and self-taught  
>> Python coder.
>> I learned Python because it was easy, and there is a wealth of  
>> information
>> available on the internet.  If I have any problem in Python, I  
>> simply type
>> 'python issue' into Google and within a few clicks I'm usually  
>> looking at
>> the answer.  When I tried to learn Smalltalk, it was intensely  
>> frustrating.
>> There were no on-line resources, no tutorials, no explanations.
>>
>> I think the real question is, "Is Smalltalk a better language than  
>> Python?"
>> By better, I mean, "Can I get done more coding tasks faster, in a  
>> more
>> sustainable way?"
>>
>> Right now, the answer to this question is a resounding 'No'.  But  
>> that
>> answer might change with a slick Smalltalk package, and an  
>> abundance of
>> developer resources.  As it is, Smalltalk is a language for  
>> eccentrics.  But
>> it doesn't need to be that way.
>>
>> All of this to say that I really like the beautiful simplicity of
>> Smalltalk's main paradigm - Message Passing.
>>
>> It's simple.  It's elegant.  But learning it is a stone bitch, and  
>> once
>> you've learned it, it has only limited value (compared, for  
>> example, to the
>> wealth of things one can do in Python).  I wish this would change.
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Squeak-Forks-Popularity---Trends-Estimate-tp3211130p3232572.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

>
> Yes, you're quite right, David.  But my point is that my particular situation
> is representative of everyone who is not currently in the Smalltalk
> community.  I posted because I want the Smalltalk community to grow, but
> it's peak has passed.  There are no SUGs, there is no Smalltalk magazine,
> there are no web resources.  And the Smalltalk community must grow if it is
> to be taken seriously.
>
> I cannot go back in time and learn it in the 'peak'.  I must learn it now,
> with the resources that are available now.  These resources are lacking.
>
> If a person was equally proficient in Smalltalk and Python, which would they
> produce better code faster in?
>
> I suspect the answer may be Smalltalk, because of its one, beautiful,
> paradigm.  But I, and millions like me, will never know.
>
> I'm hoping Pharo will be the first steps in changing that.
>
> Kind regards,
> Robert
>
>
> David Mitchell-6 wrote:
>>
>> I would insert the phrase "for you" several times into your post. That
>> is, is Python a better language (for me) at this time. Or, was Python
>> an easier language (for me) to learn than Smalltalk.
>>
>> If you come late enough to the party (and the party is large enough),
>> you can Google for all your answers. Smalltalk's popularity spiked in
>> the early 90s (until Java popped its bubble). You couldn't Google for
>> Smalltalk answers then largely due to the lack of Google ;-).
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Squeak-Forks-Popularity---Trends-Estimate-tp3211130p3233384.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>

>
> Dear David and Stephane,
>
> Thank you for your replies.  David, you make excellent points.  I  
> did not
> know about VW being free and will try it out.  And you're certainly  
> right
> that however much Smalltalk web resources are smaller than Python's,  
> it is
> certainly a much better environment for learning Smalltalk now than  
> it was
> 20 years ago.

>
> Kind regards,
> Robert
>
>
> David Mitchell-6 wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, I think my intent got lost in my joy for nostalgia.
>>
>> There was a big Smalltalk party but it ended. Then it was quiet for a
>> while (but the party was underground).
>>
>> Now, the party is getting started again.
>>
>> You may just be a little early coming to the second party.
>>
>> Things you have today that I didn't have in 1994:
>> You can download (Pharo, GNU Smalltalk, Squeak and use it however you
>> like).
>> There are two free, open source, and maintained cross dialect web
>> frameworks: Seaside and AidaWeb (we wrote our own and it paled in
>> comparison)
>> You can use Gemstone for free for small sites.
>> You can use Magma as a free OODB.
>> You can use VW for non-commercial (including to learn Smalltalk).
>> The Squeak list exists. (All I had was comp.lang.smalltalk).
>> Many good Smalltalk blogs.
>> Almost all of the old Smalltalk books are available free as PDF.
>> Many of the new Smalltalk books are available free and from Lulu.
>> Most of the classics can still be bought used on Amazon.
>> James Roberson's smalltalk podcasts.
>> James Robertson's nearly daily Smalltalk screencasts.
>> Randal Schwartz promoting Smalltalk
>> squeak irc channel
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Robert  
>> Peters<[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, you're quite right, David.  But my point is that my particular
>>> situation
>>> is representative of everyone who is not currently in the Smalltalk
>>> community.  I posted because I want the Smalltalk community to  
>>> grow, but
>>> it's peak has passed.  There are no SUGs, there is no Smalltalk  
>>> magazine,
>>> there are no web resources.  And the Smalltalk community must grow  
>>> if it
>>> is
>>> to be taken seriously.
>>>
>>> I cannot go back in time and learn it in the 'peak'.  I must learn  
>>> it
>>> now,
>>> with the resources that are available now.  These resources are  
>>> lacking.
>>>
>>> If a person was equally proficient in Smalltalk and Python, which  
>>> would
>>> they
>>> produce better code faster in?
>>>
>>> I suspect the answer may be Smalltalk, because of its one,  
>>> beautiful,
>>> paradigm.  But I, and millions like me, will never know.
>>>
>>> I'm hoping Pharo will be the first steps in changing that.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>
>>> David Mitchell-6 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I would insert the phrase "for you" several times into your post.  
>>>> That
>>>> is, is Python a better language (for me) at this time. Or, was  
>>>> Python
>>>> an easier language (for me) to learn than Smalltalk.
>>>>
>>>> If you come late enough to the party (and the party is large  
>>>> enough),
>>>> you can Google for all your answers. Smalltalk's popularity  
>>>> spiked in
>>>> the early 90s (until Java popped its bubble). You couldn't Google  
>>>> for
>>>> Smalltalk answers then largely due to the lack of Google ;-).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://n2.nabble.com/Squeak-Forks-Popularity---Trends-Estimate-tp3211130p3233384.html
>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pharo-project mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Squeak-Forks-Popularity---Trends-Estimate-tp3211130p3233978.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project